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#1 2008-10-31 21:40:03

Exitium
Member
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 2008-08-20
Posts: 202

Kernel, wm and other things; which combination is the best for gaming?

Okay, I'm really interested in Linux gaming and I use Wine for playing many games on Linux. However, I also require good performance (FPS etc.) and that's why I can't play all my games on Linux. I'm dualbooting to WinXP.

But my aim is, that I can get enough good performance to get rid of Windows. So that's why I ask, what kernels, wm's etc. are best for gaming? I'm seeking for the best performance as possible while playing with penguin-machine. Even if I'm not the expert with Linux (nor the real newbie) I want all possible information. It doesn't matter if I can't do it (masterhaxing or something else big_smile), I just want to know what could be the best solution. User-frriendly solution is not necessary too. I just want performance. Only thing which could be not-so-performace-seeking is using high graphics on games (but that's game's own settings...)

But I want the aswer especially for these questions (extra information is also welcome):

1) Distribution
What distribution is the best for gaming? I think that it would be Arch (yay!) because it's one of the lightweightest distributions (or is it the lightweightest in the world? smile ) and that's why computer's performance could be used for games - not for OS. But is there some other distribution which is better for gaming?

2) Kernel
Arch's own optimized kernel for i686 (or whatever distro is chosen), realtime kernel, self compiled or what? I think that self-compiled kernel would be the best solution, but if I should choose pre-compiled kernel, so what's the best one? Computer uses modern multicore processor, which also supports 64bit system.

3) Window Manager
More lightweigh = better, I suppose. But I want to know how radically window manager/desktop enviroment effects on performance. Is there a huge difference between Gnome, KDE, Openbox or Fluxbox? And if I start the game without window manager - I start X and game with single command? Is there a huge difference in performance?

4) Wine, Cedega, CrossOver
This is for Windows games, because there are just a few Linux games which I play. Which one is the best for gaming? Of course, Wine is the easiest to get and it's free, but is there a lot better Direct3D support in Cedega or CrossOver Games (= better FPS)?

These are the main questions. But if you have any additional information, please tell/ask it. smile Note that I'm going to ask this same question on the different forums also. I want as much aswers as possible. smile

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#2 2008-10-31 21:56:17

MoonSwan
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From: Great White North
Registered: 2008-01-23
Posts: 881

Re: Kernel, wm and other things; which combination is the best for gaming?

Heres what I know and you'll have to do a bit of digging for yourself to figure out what works best on your system.

-  I compared playing Nexuiz with KDE 3.5.x and Fluxbox v1.0x (?) and I found that even with compositing OFF that KDE sucked down 30 fps.  I also tried, for kicks, using just Amarok in Fluxbox + nexuiz and again I lost about 20fps or so.  So now I use Fluxbox + Moc (cli music player) and I'm pretty happy with how Nexuiz runs.

-  Distros I've liked were Arch & SuperGamer (If only to find new games to play) which is based on Arch.

-  I use whatever stock kernel Arch is using today (2.6.27 I think) and it seems to work allright.

-  A few friends of mine don't use any WM while gaming and they seem to think it helps.

-  Check Phoronix.com for linux hardware info and kernels and gaming.

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#3 2008-10-31 22:26:20

Exitium
Member
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 2008-08-20
Posts: 202

Re: Kernel, wm and other things; which combination is the best for gaming?

MoonSwan wrote:

Heres what I know and you'll have to do a bit of digging for yourself to figure out what works best on your system.

-  I compared playing Nexuiz with KDE 3.5.x and Fluxbox v1.0x (?) and I found that even with compositing OFF that KDE sucked down 30 fps.  I also tried, for kicks, using just Amarok in Fluxbox + nexuiz and again I lost about 20fps or so.  So now I use Fluxbox + Moc (cli music player) and I'm pretty happy with how Nexuiz runs.

-  Distros I've liked were Arch & SuperGamer (If only to find new games to play) which is based on Arch.

-  I use whatever stock kernel Arch is using today (2.6.27 I think) and it seems to work allright.

-  A few friends of mine don't use any WM while gaming and they seem to think it helps.

-  Check Phoronix.com for linux hardware info and kernels and gaming.

Thank you for reply. Replies like this is really that I need. I'll check those sites later (00.24AM here in Finland right now big_smile )

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#4 2008-10-31 23:09:06

shazeal
Member
From: New Zealand
Registered: 2007-06-05
Posts: 341

Re: Kernel, wm and other things; which combination is the best for gaming?

Just IMO here.

1) Any distro, Arch of course is the best distro so Id go with that.
2) Doesnt matter as long as it supports your hardware, newer = better though right? tongue
3) WM doesnt matter, unless you have a small amount of memory (like 512mb or something prehistoric like that).
4) Wine has the largest list of apps that actually work.
Crossover = stable wine (ie old, better for people wanting to run desktop apps than games).
Cedega = a couple of games work really well, the rest are garbage and you pay for it.

Hardware is far more important than any of the above, Wine is largely CPU dependant, but you will still need a good graphics card to run any newer games. More memory makes the whole which WM is better moot, if you have 2gig or more of ram, any WM is the best one wink

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#5 2008-11-01 00:43:27

AD28
Member
Registered: 2008-09-16
Posts: 161

Re: Kernel, wm and other things; which combination is the best for gaming?

shazeal wrote:

3) WM doesnt matter, unless you have a small amount of memory (like 512mb or something prehistoric like that).

It depends how intensive the game is.  Even in WinXP, you can get tangible fps gains by nLiting a stripped down XP.

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#6 2008-11-01 01:18:13

kensai
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From: Puerto Rico
Registered: 2005-06-03
Posts: 2,484
Website

Re: Kernel, wm and other things; which combination is the best for gaming?

4) Wine, I run all Max Payne on wine flawlessly, it just works, and I think it works with more games than crossover games and cedega.


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#7 2008-11-01 01:32:10

shazeal
Member
From: New Zealand
Registered: 2007-06-05
Posts: 341

Re: Kernel, wm and other things; which combination is the best for gaming?

AD28 wrote:
shazeal wrote:

3) WM doesnt matter, unless you have a small amount of memory (like 512mb or something prehistoric like that).

It depends how intensive the game is.  Even in WinXP, you can get tangible fps gains by nLiting a stripped down XP.

XP != Linux. I see no change in Framerates when using OB, Compiz Standalone, or Gnome with Wine games. Native games I have no clue since other than Rainslick Ive never really bothered with Linux games.
And if you are really worried about all that, you can just run Gnome + Compiz + extra bloat, and just run your games in a seperate X server which is better than any WM since it has none.

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#8 2008-11-01 01:54:11

Skofo
Member
Registered: 2008-08-21
Posts: 36

Re: Kernel, wm and other things; which combination is the best for gaming?

4) I'd just stick with Wine. I tried to play Source games in CrossOver and it actually does worse than Wine.

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#9 2008-11-01 02:23:32

AD28
Member
Registered: 2008-09-16
Posts: 161

Re: Kernel, wm and other things; which combination is the best for gaming?

shazeal wrote:

XP != Linux.

I never claimed that XP = Linux, but you're right that XP != Linux.  DirectX games run natively in XP, and even in XP you can improve framerates by shutting down extra services while playing intensive games or nLiting the install.

I see no change in Framerates when using OB, Compiz Standalone, or Gnome with Wine games.

If you want to claim that your background load doesn't affect your fps in wine, well good for you I guess.

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#10 2008-11-01 09:14:18

Exitium
Member
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 2008-08-20
Posts: 202

Re: Kernel, wm and other things; which combination is the best for gaming?

Thank you for replies.

But I know that Wine supports much more games than CrossOver or Cedega. But I asked if the games which are supported in Cedega/CrossOver work much better than in Wine, not variety of games.

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#11 2008-11-01 12:37:18

Procyon
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Registered: 2008-05-07
Posts: 1,819

Re: Kernel, wm and other things; which combination is the best for gaming?

From what I've tried from CrossOver and Day of Defeat Source, it just installs it really conveniently.

There was no performance gain.

I recompiled the latest wine with a very minimal setup: in ./configure disabling everything except '--without-opengl' or the game wouldn't start and '--without-xrender' or checkboxes would be invisible, and it was a bit better.

BTW Especially fonts worked a lot better with --without-fontconfig and/or --without-freetype, sometimes it chooses an odd font, but no more unreadable stuff, so it was definitely a success.

Furthermore you will run in to odd quirks in wine/CrossOver. If it's a simple game then it will run flawlessly, but something as complex as Source and you'll have to use a config that sets everything as low as possible. I have it set to directX level 7 or I get <20FPS (on a Geforce 8500GS) But directX 7 gives screen corruption on some maps, including half the screen getting filled. And if the server changes maps the game becomes inplayable with very frequent FPS drops (like <10FPS every two seconds)

So that's in both CrossOver and wine. If I can get Cedega's free demo to work I'll try it too.

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#12 2008-11-01 13:55:37

shazeal
Member
From: New Zealand
Registered: 2007-06-05
Posts: 341

Re: Kernel, wm and other things; which combination is the best for gaming?

Yep you can net a small gain by tweaking the wine compile, but usually it just ends up meaning you loose something somewhere else, probably when you need it too.
Tweaking the Direct3d settings listed on http://wiki.winehq.org/UsefulRegistryKeys for wine can quite often be the difference between a really slow game/not working at all, and a smooth game.

The biggest problem I have with Cedega is that unsupported apps of which there are alot, almost never work, and 3rd party tools for games are a nightmare. But that said the games it does support usually run very well, but often times they run just as well on Wine since only the popular titles are supported on Cedega. Which usually means they also get alot of attention from the Wine/COO devs as well.

If you want to claim that your background load doesn't affect your fps in wine, well good for you I guess.

Unless you run a whole lot of apps that are actively doing something in the background... there is negligable if any background load. As I write this compiz is using 0.5% of my CPU and its doing a hell of alot more work now than when its backgrounded and no longer drawing any windows while I play full screen game wink
If you decide to nice your wine games, I am pretty sure nothing but the things that actually need to run will get a look in. Or you could just close down the apps that are running in the background.

DirectX games run natively in XP, and even in XP you can improve framerates by shutting down extra services while playing intensive games or nLiting the install.

Your still talking about windows. Hes asking about linux.

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#13 2008-11-01 15:15:43

AD28
Member
Registered: 2008-09-16
Posts: 161

Re: Kernel, wm and other things; which combination is the best for gaming?

Procyon wrote:

BTW Especially fonts worked a lot better with --without-fontconfig and/or --without-freetype, sometimes it chooses an odd font, but no more unreadable stuff, so it was definitely a success.

I'll have to give this a try sometime.  I've always had some issues with fonts in wine.  Even with fonts that work, sometimes the rendering is completely quirky.

shazeal wrote:

Your still talking about windows. Hes asking about linux.

No, I was talking about fps rendering vs background processes.  We all love linux, but linux doesn't magically fall outside the limitations of hardware and process management...  If fps can be improved by trimming down background services in its native environment (yes windows), the same will apply for a mimic environment even if it's in the all-powerful, impervious Linux.

Last edited by AD28 (2008-11-01 15:33:30)

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#14 2008-11-03 03:29:14

shazeal
Member
From: New Zealand
Registered: 2007-06-05
Posts: 341

Re: Kernel, wm and other things; which combination is the best for gaming?

There is a big difference between Windows and Linux, the scheduler being the biggest. Here are 3 shots from oblivion, I tried to keep the Tri-passes around 400-450k, and the texture mem is ~ the same in all 3.

The first two also have, Apache, Dovecott, Mysql, Samba, and SSHD running in the back ground, these were all stopped for the 3rd.

Gnome Desktop 2.2.4 Full bloated install - All background services running, run from gnome terminal, Firefox open. Consonance Music player running.
screenshot1tc5.th.jpg

Xorg only no WM, with urxvt console open to launch the game, nothing else running except background services.
screenshot3zu1.th.jpg

Xorg only, all non essential services stopped.
screenshot6zd7.th.jpg

All running on Wine 1.1.7, Oblivion is running around 150 mods, and QTP3, Body mods, High res texture packs for the character skins, with HDR lighting. As you can see the FPS does not change, it fluctuated between 19-20 on all three runs.
Especially with Dual cores, you will find that games do not loose FPS even with things like a lightweight music player running in the background. Windows scheduler simply was not made for that kind of thing, and benifits alot more from a lower number of background processes. I wont say linux does not benifit, but with Dual cores and CFS, it is not really noticable anymore.

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#15 2008-11-03 03:50:22

shazeal
Member
From: New Zealand
Registered: 2007-06-05
Posts: 341

Re: Kernel, wm and other things; which combination is the best for gaming?

Just for sanitys sake, here is a shot with Gnome and all background junk running, however the CPU has been overclocked by a further 200mhz.

screenshot9ho1.th.jpgthpix.gif

The FPS when overclocked fluctuated between 21-23 FPS

Last edited by shazeal (2008-11-03 03:50:52)

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#16 2008-11-03 04:04:07

Cappy
Member
Registered: 2008-10-13
Posts: 20

Re: Kernel, wm and other things; which combination is the best for gaming?

Apparently, running less stuff slows your FPS! wink

Seriously though, good comparison smile

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#17 2008-11-03 05:32:36

AD28
Member
Registered: 2008-09-16
Posts: 161

Re: Kernel, wm and other things; which combination is the best for gaming?

Oblivion wasn't quite what I had in mind when I referred to "intensive" games, but those results still surprise me.  I run an average A64 X2 with 2G mem and a 9600GT.  The only thing I play anymore in wine is WC3 to watch some occasional replays, and I run it at max AA settings with compiz fusion active just fine.  That doesn't really mean that "linux" can run games at max AA settings with full active compositing.

I always figured that it was a result of my hardware completely outclassing an old game and not anything linux-related, but perhaps it's both as you say.

Last edited by AD28 (2008-11-03 18:44:59)

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#18 2008-11-03 08:18:24

shazeal
Member
From: New Zealand
Registered: 2007-06-05
Posts: 341

Re: Kernel, wm and other things; which combination is the best for gaming?

I dont blame you for being skeptical, I did a double take when I got oblivion working under wine a few weeks ago. My FPS in windows was actually lower in some cases, and Linux can not run the FPS booster addon (Streamline) for Oblivion.

All it really means though is more freedom if you have a reasonably recent machine <3 linux smile

Seems Cedega has a "Certified" list of games now roll
http://www.cedega.com/gamesdb/certified

Ill see If I can dig up an old copy of Cedega for comparison.

EDIT: Just noticed, I never mentioned the resolution. The shots were taken at 1280x1024 and downsized for Imageshack smile

Last edited by shazeal (2008-11-03 08:20:58)

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#19 2008-11-03 09:12:43

moljac024
Member
From: Serbia
Registered: 2008-01-29
Posts: 2,676

Re: Kernel, wm and other things; which combination is the best for gaming?

You're not really doing anything intensive on those shots, are you ? (I mean, IN GAME)
Doesn't seem like a good comparison then.

Last edited by moljac024 (2008-11-03 09:13:00)


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#20 2008-11-03 10:06:23

shazeal
Member
From: New Zealand
Registered: 2007-06-05
Posts: 341

Re: Kernel, wm and other things; which combination is the best for gaming?

You dont really need to, oblivion has one of the most CPU intensive engines known to man, with 150 mods + the high poly bodys + high rez textures. Its not a static world like most games, even when you are sitting in the city, mobs are fighting each other, stuff is traveling around, being arrested, eating, drinking, sleeping etc as the day tics by. You can also see by the poly count on screen ~500k in each shot, ~400k drawn, its not exactly a simple scene, the lighting is not static either. I forget the number but the vanilla game alone has around 1500 NPCs all running AI scripts, the mods add in a few hundred more.

On a vanilla install with no mods I would expect around 30fps in the same position. The test could definately be done better no doubt, but without fraps or something its kinda hard smile

Last edited by shazeal (2008-11-03 10:07:18)

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#21 2008-11-03 10:43:55

shazeal
Member
From: New Zealand
Registered: 2007-06-05
Posts: 341

Re: Kernel, wm and other things; which combination is the best for gaming?

I cant install cedega anymore, used to be if you had subbed at some point you could download old engines, they stick you for 6 months now roll

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#22 2008-11-03 18:39:42

Exitium
Member
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 2008-08-20
Posts: 202

Re: Kernel, wm and other things; which combination is the best for gaming?

shazeal wrote:

There is a big difference between Windows and Linux, the scheduler being the biggest. Here are 3 shots from oblivion, I tried to keep the Tri-passes around 400-450k, and the texture mem is ~ the same in all 3.

The first two also have, Apache, Dovecott, Mysql, Samba, and SSHD running in the back ground, these were all stopped for the 3rd.

Gnome Desktop 2.2.4 Full bloated install - All background services running, run from gnome terminal, Firefox open. Consonance Music player running.
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/1551 … tc5.th.jpg

Xorg only no WM, with urxvt console open to launch the game, nothing else running except background services.
http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/34/s … zu1.th.jpg

Xorg only, all non essential services stopped.
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/7540 … zd7.th.jpg

All running on Wine 1.1.7, Oblivion is running around 150 mods, and QTP3, Body mods, High res texture packs for the character skins, with HDR lighting. As you can see the FPS does not change, it fluctuated between 19-20 on all three runs.
Especially with Dual cores, you will find that games do not loose FPS even with things like a lightweight music player running in the background. Windows scheduler simply was not made for that kind of thing, and benifits alot more from a lower number of background processes. I wont say linux does not benifit, but with Dual cores and CFS, it is not really noticable anymore.

Wait, does that mean you have better performance while you are running more stuff? Does the desktop manager handle graphics better?

This really did confuse me...

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#23 2008-11-03 21:22:04

shazeal
Member
From: New Zealand
Registered: 2007-06-05
Posts: 341

Re: Kernel, wm and other things; which combination is the best for gaming?

No as I said the FPS fluctuated between 19-20 fps in all 3 cases when the CPU was not overclocked, there is (even though it may not look like it) quite alot of movement in the scenes making it near on impossible to control. I took about 10 screenshots in each case, it just happened that all the shots for the 3rd one were 19fps.

The only shot that really changed in FPS was the final one, where I overclocked my CPU from 2.8ghz to 3.0ghz, the game was alot smoother, unfortunately its summer here so I cannot keep it at that speed tongue
Which goes back to the comment I made that the hardware in your machine is alot more important than the Kernel/WM/etc in dictating what sort of speeds you will get in games.

Ive done similar things on my girlfriends machine which she plays WoW on Linux with. Changing her from Gnome to Openbox only resulted in her complaining about openbox rather than any gain in FPS in WoW. And she has an old Barton 2500+ with a 7300GT graphics card.

What I will say is that *box will use less ram, so if your almost hitting the ceiling on ram with Gnome or whatever, then with the *boxs you would actually be able to run a bit more without hitting swap and therefore killing your FPS. But with most machines having 2gig or more nowdays thats unlikely to happen.

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#24 2008-11-04 02:21:53

shazeal
Member
From: New Zealand
Registered: 2007-06-05
Posts: 341

Re: Kernel, wm and other things; which combination is the best for gaming?

Just out of morbid curiosity I decided to build up a Zen kernel using the gaming profile and 432hz timer. Apart from hard locking my machine and causing me to have to rebuild my raid 1 array. It netted a 1fps loss, Peak fps was 19, minimum was 17, in the same senario as the first screenshot.

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