It's time to move on

JGC · 2004-09-14 06:29:30

I've been using archlinux for almost a year now, and it's time to move on now. The reason is that archlinux is not really grown up yet, and improving on that is very hard to do.
I've been working on prerelease gnome and KDE packages for a while now and I don't feel the improvements show up in archlinux very much. When I file bugs, most of them get closed with wontfix, or don't get looked on at all.
As long as I've done Gnome 2.7 for archlinux, I haven't had any feedback from package maintainers. This feels like I'm doing all this for nothing.
Working with the gnome team on archlinux just doesn't really work out. I've also tasted something of the KDE team, which is what I like. KDE is just not the desktop I use, so I won't do much with that anymore.

I will keep the gnome 2.7 repository up for a while, but I won't improve it. When gnome 2.8 is in archlinux, I'll delete everything from that server.

I will quit developing packages for archlinux and look for another distro. Probably Debian again, or maybe some distro I haven't tasted yet.

inklingx · 2004-09-14 09:37:45

I'm sorry to hear you are leaving. One of the main reasons i switched to Arch was because of your gnome 2.7 repository

Before Arch i was using slackware + dropline gnome and this was a much more polished gnome experience. Due to some architectural decisions and lack of interest by the Arch maintainers Arch is not a very ideal distro to run gnome on.
I'm not blaming the Arch maintainers for this: not everybody has to run the same DM and i realise gnome is not the easiest DM to maintain and package.

What i like about arch is pacman (makes it very easy to make your own packages) and the avialability of software (i only have 3 own-made packages - when i used slack with dropline i had about 25).

Hmm... if somebody could port pacman to slackware...

xerxes2 · 2004-09-14 10:23:38

You shouldn't leave if you like the distro.
If you not already are you could be a tur.
When arch is making an amd64 version there must be lots of work for package maintainers.

zeppelin · 2004-09-14 12:45:07

I love GNOME, but someone said having "I love GNOME, anyone has a problem with that" as my signature here, is not a good example and shows I'm fanatical.

I hope you don't leave and as a matter of fact I hope you and the rest of the ArchDevs prepare and polish as much as they can the 2.8 of GNOME that will ship soon.

Dropline GNOME and Slackware is the best GNOME experience I've ever had, but Slackware Package system and the i(4)386 thing of Slackware's package spoils it all.

So I hope that you 'll stay and with all the devs we'll have a i686 GNOME 2.8 group of packages that everyone will admire and respect.

beniro · 2004-09-14 13:08:35

I agree that sometime s bugs get ignored a bit. And there have been package release problems in the past.

The number of developers we have, however, are doing as much as they can and not making a bunch of money on it. Slowly the number is growing, though.

How can we get people more involved in the process?

I admit I haven't helped much, but I'm not much of a coder (web dev, yes, but not much more than that). I also have a (more than) full time job. I suspect many contributers do as well, but still find time.

So, I ask again: any bright ideas on how to attract more people to the Arch development process?

i3839 · 2004-09-14 15:01:18

beniro wrote:

So, I ask again: any bright ideas on how to attract more people to the Arch development process?

They could add a post on the front page asking for people...

sarah31 · 2004-09-14 15:37:43

personally i think that they should have taken you on as the GNOME maintainer for arch.

As well I think arch could use a bit of house cleaning developer-wise and "hire on" people that will actually continually put in the effort to keep arch moving ahead instead of running with the pack like it has become now.

personally i won't develope again because there still remain one dev there that i simply will not interact or be associated with.

Thikasabrik · 2004-09-14 18:15:17

Can someone tell me what makes Dropline on Slackware better than Archlinux's Gnome? I'd like to know what I'm missing out on..

inklingx · 2004-09-14 18:56:46

Dropline may not be better, but it just feels more polished.

You get icons & menu entries for the gnome apps you install, for mozilla, for firefox,... The cursor theme is jimmac + extra artwork like ximian and bluecurve is installed. I know i can easyly fix/install/add these "extras" on Arch, but first impressions...

Also the decision of placing gnome in /opt/gnome causes some problems (not always the packagers are to blame, some of the problems are caused upstream). Examples: the liferea package, xscreensaver menu entry.

Maybe the comparison of Dropline Gnome and Arch is quite unfair: after all Dropline is just a gnome add-on (Todd should read this ) for one of the most mature distro's while the Arch maintainers have to maintain a whole distro and must distribute the time/resources they have over a lot of packages.

dtw · 2004-09-14 19:57:28

seems a shame that this guy's work has gone pretty much un-praised/acknowledged and that his bug reports (i presume they're his that affect his packages) have gone un-attended to.

i really hate contributing when it is a one way process - i see far too much clique in linux development and i hate it with a passion - as i have said before: the software is open-source but the knowledge isn't.

much of the development is lead by an elite few who hold all the keys. i didn't think AL was like that until now, i thought it was very easy to become a valuable member of the dev team. i was recently involved in a project to create a distro with really open development aims - that idealogy went south very quickly (IMHO) with the introduction of a new dev, who, i felt, had far too much influence on the process.

sad day for AL

sarah31 · 2004-09-14 22:51:57

dibblethewrecker wrote:

seems a shame that this guy's work has gone pretty much un-praised/acknowledged and that his bug reports (i presume they're his that affect his packages) have gone un-attended to.

this will happen when your devs are really not experienced enough with coding/developing or spend enohg time on it. sometimes i feel that sometimes the devs may not follow up on a "bug" because they may not understand it and don't take the tiem to get some clarification.

i think JGC knows far more about developing gnome than the current gnome maintainers for arch. he kept active in maintaining his unofficial repos.

however, what i don't think he realized how unofficial contributions can be a very unthankful task because you are working outside of the official development and many people will both not use the repo or provide the much needed feedback.

as for feedback on unoffcial repos from developers.... other than the gnome developers i don't know why he would expect feedback. most of the devs don't even use or trifle with gnome or even have any interest in it.

i really hate contributing when it is a one way process - i see far too much clique in linux development and i hate it with a passion - as i have said before: the software is open-source but the knowledge isn't.

in many cases youare absoolutely correct. but one thing i know is that if you don't at least TRY to learn some of the "ugly underbelly" of linux alot of "veterans" won't even give you the time of day. I would rather help someone get a foothold and teach them some self reliance (because it is way better for them and the community) than continually hold someone's hand through every trial and tribulation. we all have that period where we are very reliant on everyone else but that changes the sooner one realizes that the answers are there in front of them and often come faster than waiting for someone to answer here or on irc.

much of the development is lead by an elite few who hold all the keys. i didn't think AL was like that until now, i thought it was very easy to become a valuable member of the dev team. i was recently involved in a project to create a distro with really open development aims - that idealogy went south very quickly (IMHO) with the introduction of a new dev, who, i felt, had far too much influence on the process.

it is too easy to become a dev. most have little experience and most have far too little time to spend doing their development. the arch dev team is often plagued with what appears to be indifference or apathy. most of the time it is just poor time management and trying to do too much stuff that they really have knowledge about.

arch needs more devs that are not at school and can spend time working on their section of the distro. it is also important for all devs to interact with the community as much as they may not want to.

sad day for AL

it is a sad day when anyone leaves a distro but all we can do is wish them well. (i while i have done this sort of thing before i don't really understand why people have to announce their reasons for leaving and try to make people feel bad.) ultimately i think JGC could have asked to take over maintaining arch's gnome packages.

ultimately developing is not a "fun" job and is very thankless. and it is even harder when people think that you don't care or are not doing your job.

dtw · 2004-09-15 09:19:16

i agree with a lot of that, Sarah. Esp the bit about it being too easy to become a dev. Of course this totally contradicts what i said up there, i'll readily admit when i am wrong, poorly informed or just general talking from the wrong end. i think i personally have found it too easy to become invloved in dev work when i really don't have the skills or time, so maybe i should just shut up.

i would like to point out to the community in general that i strongly believe that you you say what you think and feel at the time and if you change your mind you should gleefully face the music 8)

not sure i agree with your feelings on "announcements" i can understand why people want to make statements that formalize their feelings about stuff without just buggering off and leaving everyone clueless.

i don't get the people who insist on posting on LQ to annouce that they have given up Linux - that's just bizarre

dtw · 2004-09-15 13:00:55

i have EXACTLY the same thing with with feedback on my hobby website - which is linked below - i get about 30+ visits a day - mainly form this forum and no-one EVER leaves a single comment, signs the guessbook, rates the downloads or screenies - or even posts questions!

it drives me INSANE! :evil:

Kin · 2004-09-15 20:28:16

JGC; where do you want to move ? Is there a distribution which you prefer, where your work will be better "appreciated" ?

Kin

JGC · 2004-09-15 21:00:39

At this moment I'm building LFS. I don't know what I'll use as "package manager" for LFS, but the things I have used in arch won't get lost in the ways I will work on my LFS installation.
I've done LFS before when Gnome 2.3.x was in development, this is also where I found out the inside-out's about gnome before I started packaging beta stuff on archlinux.

The upcoming half year I want to be a normal user. Maybe I'll become a bughunter for the next gnome release by hunting bugs reported in gnome bugzilla. I hunted some bugs during the gnome 2.5/6 releasecycle, which is a bit more challenging than updating some PKGBUILDs by changing versions, dependencies and md5sums.

cactus · 2004-09-16 04:53:15

Oddly enough, the most feedback for any of the projects I have undertaken, at the time I did it, seemed the most trivial project. It was installation step by step on putting linux on a thinkpad. I put it on my site, added the entry to linuxonlaptops, and forgot about it.
Mostly it was documentation for me so that I could repeat the steps if needed. Yeah, I prettied it up a bit, just in case someone else found it useful..

I got several emails with questions, comments, etc.
I did an ldap guide for similar reasons. Also good feedback and comments.

My programming project efforts have always resulted in considerably less feedback (constructive or otherwise).

If you wanna check out the docs I am talking about, go to http://solarblue.net/docs.php
Like I said, nothing especially great about them...

longhornxtreme · 2004-09-16 11:04:47

The Gnome experience on Arch is rather sparse...

But I am running Gnome... it just... 'feels' better than KDE imnsho... I previously had little to no experience with gnome and was primarily KDE user... I tried out Gnome and after a few days haven't left it... last time I booted into KDE I almost freaked at how long everything takes to open and close... specially Konqueror when used as a file browser/manager...

I think its all a matter of preference...

The problem with Gnome under Arch is that programs don't intsall into the gnome menu's like they do in KDE... the themes aren't all there... etc...

Yes... Gnome 'works' and is 'usable'... but it takes much more effort on the part of th user compared to any other distro's Gnome that I have used...

Moo-Crumpus · 2004-09-17 14:06:09

OK, LFS is nearer to arch, if you want to run fancy gnome and tweak and construct everything. I intend to run ubuntu. It is based on debian, with brand new packages and new releases every six months. It's default desktop environment is gnome, actually a full featured gnome 2.8.

http://www.ubuntulinux.org/
http://www.linuxbeta.com/slideshows/sli … 03&slide=1

PS: I now it is not very nice to praise other distros here, but I can't see much progress in official arch's gnome tree for a longer period. Several more aspects make me feel I have to go ahead, 2.

xerxes2 · 2004-09-17 15:00:56

isn't Arch a pure vanilla distro that shouldn't "tweak" stuff?

Moo-Crumpus · 2004-09-17 15:58:29

xerxes2 wrote:

isn't Arch a pure vanilla distro that shouldn't "tweak" stuff?

Matchpoint.

xerxes2 · 2004-09-17 23:57:17

ok, ubuntu seems to be an "out of the box all setup" distro.

my experience with those say you will be back in a week.....

Moo-Crumpus · 2004-09-18 09:37:40

I don't think so. If out of the box does what I would do by hand and feet, why should I say no. I read a lot about ubuntu, and their goals are mine. Maybe it matches.

If not, debian installations are not untouchable. I learned a lot in a year using Archlinux.

And, I never experienced debian maintainers replying like this:

Task #1436: gnome theme manager freezing
-----
well it just works fine for me, i can't seem to reproduce on any of my
3 systems.
try to update to gnome 2.8.
closing this.
-----

Translation:
I guess he means:
"It's fine for me, so don't bother me, if you don't like it, use another one, I will not ask for more or even think about fixing it."

Works for mee seems to be good enough for the world. Not to mention, the same bug was in arch's gnome 2.4, too, and has later been fixed. It works for him, so why am I not glad about it? I am so ... thankless. Have to feel lucky and a deep satisfaction, because it - works - for - him. JC!

:evil:

I am sad, but is is time to end this.

mctavish · 2004-09-18 12:03:47

I also have my eye on ubuntu. I think it looks very promising.

They they are associated with an organisation called Canonical: http://www.canonical.com/

The following quote is from the Canonical website.

Team members include leaders from the Gnome, Linux, Debian and Arch open source projects

xerxes2 · 2004-09-18 13:22:41

Time for a little conspiracy theories about "Canonical" and "Ubuntu".

There is "somebody" behind it.
Who got:

1. Money, power, people.
2. No desktop distro.
3. Hate for MS.
4. A goal that software should be almost free of cost.

Moo-Crumpus · 2004-09-18 17:25:20

I run ubuntu on my laptop, now. Very charmful.

Arch Linux

#1 2004-09-14 06:29:30

It's time to move on

#2 2004-09-14 09:37:45

Re: It's time to move on

#3 2004-09-14 10:23:38

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#4 2004-09-14 12:45:07

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#5 2004-09-14 13:08:35

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#6 2004-09-14 15:01:18

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#7 2004-09-14 15:37:43

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#8 2004-09-14 18:15:17

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#9 2004-09-14 18:56:46

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#10 2004-09-14 19:57:28

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#11 2004-09-14 22:51:57

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#12 2004-09-15 09:19:16

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#13 2004-09-15 13:00:55

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#14 2004-09-15 20:28:16

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#15 2004-09-15 21:00:39

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#16 2004-09-16 04:53:15

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#17 2004-09-16 11:04:47

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#18 2004-09-17 14:06:09

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#19 2004-09-17 15:00:56

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#20 2004-09-17 15:58:29

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#21 2004-09-17 23:57:17

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#22 2004-09-18 09:37:40

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#23 2004-09-18 12:03:47

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#24 2004-09-18 13:22:41

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#25 2004-09-18 17:25:20

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