Poor performance and overheat

BoppreH · 2009-05-01 22:12:15

Story
I've been using arch for the past four months, dual booting with my old Windows XP. As I'm very fond of Flash games and make my own programs with a cross-platform language, I've found few problems with the migration. One of them was the Adobe Flash Player performance, which was stunningly bad. But everyone was saying that was normal, so I left it as is.

However, one special error always worried me: a seemingly randomly started siren sound coming from the motherboard speaker. Thinking it was a alarm about some fatal kernel error, I had been solving it mostly with reboots.

But then it happened. While playing a graphics intensive game on Windows quickly after rebooting from Arch, the same siren sound started. It felt like a slap across the face: it was not a kernel error, it was an motherboard overheat alarm.

The Problem
Since the computer was giving overheat signs, I started looking at things from another angle. I noticed that some tasks take unusually long times in Arch (i.e.: building things from source; Firefox / OpenOffice startup; any graphics intensive program), specially from the Flash Player.

A great example is the game Penguinz, that runs flawlessly in Windows but is unbearably slow in Arch. So slow that it alone caused said overheat twice. And trying to record another flash game's record using XVidCap things went so bad that the game halved the FPS and started ignoring key presses.

Tech Info
Dual Core 3.2 processor
1 gb RAM
256 mb Geforce FX 5500 video card

Running Openbox
Using proprietary NVIDIA driver

TL;DR: poor performance on some tasks. Flash Player is so slow that overheats CPU and makes me cry. It's fine on Windows.

Off the top of my head I can think up some reasons: bad video driver, unwanted background application messing up, known Flash Player performance problems and Actionscript Linux/Arch-only bug.
Where do you think is the problem?

yingwuzhao · 2009-05-01 22:21:04

I understand your frustrations, Flash definitely is the weak point of linux. If you look at the system requirement of Adobe Flash on its website for both Win and Linux, you will realize that.

When using Linux, I know I don't expect to do a lot of flash playing, which uses way more resources than it does under Windows. Linux has been so much superior than Windows in many other aspect, and I don't think it's realistic to expect it be to better everywhere than Win. Many thing still works better under win, that's why you might want to dual boot. Do different things under different system.

Open source is a dream for all of us, but sometimes I just felt, it always fall behind or barely follow the commercial systems like Win and Mac. It's strong for power users for administration work, but for entertainment, still Win or Mac is the way to go.

app4des · 2009-05-01 23:45:30

This is your hardware's problem. A normally well made PC should never experience problems or overheat, whatever the load. You should look for some better cooling solutions if you no longer have warranty. A PC should never fail because of high load.

But yes it is true that linux is more power hungry and unoptimized (that means higher temperatures, as in your case) than Windows on the desktop, because power savings afaik is implemented on linux only on CPU and nothing else, while windows has cpu, gpu, usb and chipset (motherboard) power savings, because of the better official driver support.

Last edited by app4des (2009-05-01 23:45:43)

.:B:. · 2009-05-01 23:58:13

Liinux has power saving capabilities on the USB bus too; it can do powersaving on your sound chip too; and so on, and so on. it's not because you don't know about it that it's not there. There's just no focus on it (unfortunately). Nevertheless, I agree that this is a symptom of a badly assembled system, rather than a Linux problem. Hardware needs to have a margin it can operate in. If a system overheats when all components work as intended, then something is wrong - and it's not the software.

BoppreH · 2009-05-02 01:26:34

yingwuzhao wrote:

I understand your frustrations, Flash definitely is the weak point of linux. If you look at the system requirement of Adobe Flash on its website for both Win and Linux, you will realize that.
When using Linux, I know I don't expect to do a lot of flash playing, which uses way more resources than it does under Windows. Linux has been so much superior than Windows in many other aspect, and I don't think it's realistic to expect it be to better everywhere than Win. Many thing still works better under win, that's why you might want to dual boot. Do different things under different system.
Open source is a dream for all of us, but sometimes I just felt, it always fall behind or barely follow the commercial systems like Win and Mac. It's strong for power users for administration work, but for entertainment, still Win or Mac is the way to go.

Exactly my opinion. And I dual boot only to play fancier games.

app4des wrote:

This is your hardware's problem. A normally well made PC should never experience problems or overheat, whatever the load. You should look for some better cooling solutions if you no longer have warranty. A PC should never fail because of high load.

Sorry, but I won't accept that. My PC has been so cool that I've never heard that siren before, hence why I didn't know it was the motherboard alarm for heat. And that is playing badly coded games with tons of memory leaks, underspeced and in a tropical country summer.

Arch would have to be astonishingly un-optimized to do that.

app4des wrote:

But yes it is true that linux is more power hungry and unoptimized (that means higher temperatures, as in your case) than Windows on the desktop, because power savings afaik is implemented on linux only on CPU and nothing else, while windows has cpu, gpu, usb and chipset (motherboard) power savings, because of the better official driver support.

B wrote:

Liinux has power saving capabilities on the USB bus too; it can do powersaving on your sound chip too; and so on, and so on. it's not because you don't know about it that it's not there. There's just no focus on it (unfortunately). Nevertheless, I agree that this is a symptom of a badly assembled system, rather than a Linux problem. Hardware needs to have a margin it can operate in. If a system overheats when all components work as intended, then something is wrong - and it's not the software.

This could be the answer. I've never heard of powersaving in anything aside from CPU, but I'll look into the matter.

.:B:. · 2009-05-02 02:03:59

For USB, you can add this to /etc/modprobe.conf:

options usbcore autosuspend=1

If you are curious about what drivers can do power-saving, you can always run modinfo on them. For example:

[stijn@hermes ~]$ modinfo snd-hda-intel|grep power
parm:           power_save:Automatic power-saving timeout (in second, 0 = disable). (int)
parm:           power_save_controller:Reset controller in power save mode. (bool)

It's the tiny bits that help . My system was advertised by Sony to get 7h autonomy, and I have been able to hack some stuff together and go to an 8h predicted battery life (that is, an extrapolation after 4h usage and the battery being at 50% ). That number of course doesn't imply 'real' usage - just a word processor and a dimmed backlight, optical reader shut down and other tricks to minimise power usage. But it's nice to know you can do it .

Et voilà:

root@hermes stijn modprobe -v snd-hda-intel
insmod /lib/modules/2.6.29.2-vaio/kernel/sound/pci/hda/snd-hda-intel.ko model=hippo power-save=10

God I love Linux <3

BoppreH · 2009-05-02 02:53:10

B wrote:

For USB, you can add this to /etc/modprobe.conf:
options usbcore autosuspend=1
If you are curious about what drivers can do power-saving, you can always run modinfo on them. For example:
[stijn@hermes ~]$ modinfo snd-hda-intel|grep power
parm:           power_save:Automatic power-saving timeout (in second, 0 = disable). (int)
parm:           power_save_controller:Reset controller in power save mode. (bool)
It's the tiny bits that help . My system was advertised by Sony to get 7h autonomy, and I have been able to hack some stuff together and go to an 8h predicted battery life (that is, an extrapolation after 4h usage and the battery being at 50% ). That number of course doesn't imply 'real' usage - just a word processor and a dimmed backlight, optical reader shut down and other tricks to minimise power usage. But it's nice to know you can do it .
Et voilà:
root@hermes stijn modprobe -v snd-hda-intel
insmod /lib/modules/2.6.29.2-vaio/kernel/sound/pci/hda/snd-hda-intel.ko model=hippo power-save=10
God I love Linux <3

It's interesting how the same thing can help a desktop to cool down and a laptop to extend it's batteries.

I'll try it tomorrow, thanks for the hints.

iphitus · 2009-05-02 09:29:29

BoppreH wrote:

app4des wrote:
This is your hardware's problem. A normally well made PC should never experience problems or overheat, whatever the load. You should look for some better cooling solutions if you no longer have warranty. A PC should never fail because of high load.
Sorry, but I won't accept that. My PC has been so cool that I've never heard that siren before, hence why I didn't know it was the motherboard alarm for heat. And that is playing badly coded games with tons of memory leaks, underspeced and in a tropical country summer.
Arch would have to be astonishingly un-optimized to do that.

He's right. It's got nothing to do with how optimised Arch is. Maybe there's a recent hardware failure?

You should be able to run at max load under any OS for an extended period of time with no thermal issues whatsoever. The operating system here is irrelevant - it generally does not control system cooling.

As for Flash, it's a piece of crap, send a complaint to Adobe. It has never played well under Linux. It's flash that is so terribly un-optimised that it causes higher load - however your system should be able to handle this with no problems.

Last edited by iphitus (2009-05-02 09:30:58)

R00KIE · 2009-05-02 13:55:26

+1 on that all hardware should be able to run at 100% load continuously. It doesn't matter which OS you use, if you load your system it _must_ be able to hold itself together.

Open you pc and look for stopped fans or heatsinks clogged with dust, I guess that will be the most common cause of overheating.

On the flash cpu usage issue I have to agree, it's a cpu hog on linux, shame on Adobe for that. I also have to agree that some apps still work better on windows than on linux (specially games) but I guess that things will improve on linux bit by bit. If linux wasn't becoming so good at everything then M$ wouldn't be so concerned about tuning their latest, still to be released OS so well.

As far as I have seen and learned so far you can do with linux as much and more as you do on windows but you have to learn more, and know how things work, that isn't such a bad thing but takes lots of time .... that's the price to pay for knowing how to solve the problems yourself.

BoppreH · 2009-05-02 15:33:19

iphitus and ROOKIE, I think you didn't get one thing: it works fine on windows. Perfectly fine, without overheat, sirens or anything else. And with way more load. The only time I heard the siren noise in Windows was when I had quickly rebooted from Arch.

It's impossible to not be a software fault.

dbb · 2009-05-02 16:12:58

BoppreH wrote:

iphitus and ROOKIE, I think you didn't get one thing: it works fine on windows. Perfectly fine, without overheat, sirens or anything else. And with way more load. The only time I heard the siren noise in Windows was when I had quickly rebooted from Arch.
It's impossible to not be a software fault.

The only effect software can have on raising system temperature is putting the components under higher load, the maximum of which is 100%. What others are saying, and that I agree with, is that any properly cooled system should be able to run at 100% load continuously without overheating. Your system may be under higher load in Arch, but that doesn't change the fact that your system should be able to handle maximum load without overheating.

Tips for more effective cooling:

1. Make sure none of your fans are failing (they may make strange noises, or just run much slower than they should)
2. Clear dust out of your system, especially any dust that's on your heatsinks.
3. Move cables out of the way, or use rounded cables, so that air flow is as undisturbed as possible. Turbulent air flow doesn't cool as well.
4. If possible configure your fans such that you intake from the front lower end of the case, and exhaust through the upper rear.
5. Make sure you have enough room behind your case for hot air to properly be exhausted. Exhaust fans are of no use if the hot air is just going to build up behind the case.
6. If you can, re-seat your CPU heatsink.

What are your component temperatures anyway, so we know exactly which component is overheating and causing the problem.

Last edited by dbb (2009-05-02 16:14:53)

pixxt · 2009-05-02 17:19:32

Is your dual core a Pentium4/Pentium ?

broch · 2009-05-02 17:57:08

options usbcore autosuspend=1

this is rather useless option. linux USB autosuspend is really brainless (not that windows is much better): it will suspend USB device no matter what is going on at the time: for example if you are transferring data past autosuspend time to activate OS will loose connection with USB device which is suspended after specific time even when active.

R00KIE · 2009-05-02 19:02:56

BoppreH wrote:

iphitus and ROOKIE, I think you didn't get one thing: it works fine on windows. Perfectly fine, without overheat, sirens or anything else. And with way more load. The only time I heard the siren noise in Windows was when I had quickly rebooted from Arch.
It's impossible to not be a software fault.

Before you wrote:

BoppreH wrote:

But then it happened. While playing a graphics intensive game on Windows quickly after rebooting from Arch, the same siren sound started. It felt like a slap across the face: it was not a kernel error, it was an motherboard overheat alarm.

So either it does happen in windows or it doesn't at all, rebooting and starting the game takes a while, also windows makes sure things are setup properly for it to work otherwise it doesn't even finish to boot.

Also if it is a motherboard warning it is not handled by linux or windows. Just because linux can expose the problem more easily it doesn't change the fact that there is a problem and it must be hardware related, you said it yourself that it is the motherboard's overheat alarm.

BoppreH · 2009-05-02 19:49:43

dbb wrote:

BoppreH wrote:
iphitus and ROOKIE, I think you didn't get one thing: it works fine on windows. Perfectly fine, without overheat, sirens or anything else. And with way more load. The only time I heard the siren noise in Windows was when I had quickly rebooted from Arch.
It's impossible to not be a software fault.
The only effect software can have on raising system temperature is putting the components under higher load, the maximum of which is 100%. What others are saying, and that I agree with, is that any properly cooled system should be able to run at 100% load continuously without overheating. Your system may be under higher load in Arch, but that doesn't change the fact that your system should be able to handle maximum load without overheating.
Tips for more effective cooling:
1. Make sure none of your fans are failing (they may make strange noises, or just run much slower than they should)
2. Clear dust out of your system, especially any dust that's on your heatsinks.
3. Move cables out of the way, or use rounded cables, so that air flow is as undisturbed as possible. Turbulent air flow doesn't cool as well.
4. If possible configure your fans such that you intake from the front lower end of the case, and exhaust through the upper rear.
5. Make sure you have enough room behind your case for hot air to properly be exhausted. Exhaust fans are of no use if the hot air is just going to build up behind the case.
6. If you can, re-seat your CPU heatsink.
What are your component temperatures anyway, so we know exactly which component is overheating and causing the problem.

Thanks for the overheating tips, they will be very helpful with a nearby problematic computer. But mine is ok.

I've been using Windows for years, a lot of times had to reboot because it was overloaded (Windows, sight); but the siren never kicked in. So, I guess that was 100% load: and Arch can't get beyond this.

And about my current temperatures, the BIOS setup will only tell me the following data:
Sys temperature
CPU temperature

My guess is that "Sys" means motherboard, but both are always the same: around 45º on normal usage (internet surfing on Linux, game playing on Windows). The siren starts at 60º (used to, I put some more degrees on the threshold).

I know that ignoring three user's replies is not a desirable behavior here, but I have quite a technical experience with overheats (aforementioned computer specially) and it's logically impossible to not be software fault because both operating systems were used in overload situations.

I still didn't test the hints that B gave, but I'll try it today for certain.

jwcxz · 2009-05-02 21:18:47

Have you looked at your process table for any program with abnormal CPU usage? That seems like the logical place to start. You shouldn't be getting poor performance in anything with that system. I have a 2.0GHz Core 2 Duo and an Intel GMA 965 and I've never had any problems with Flash. It's much better than it used to be.

BoppreH · 2009-05-02 22:52:35

jwcxz wrote:

Have you looked at your process table for any program with abnormal CPU usage? That seems like the logical place to start. You shouldn't be getting poor performance in anything with that system. I have a 2.0GHz Core 2 Duo and an Intel GMA 965 and I've never had any problems with Flash. It's much better than it used to be.

Pidgin scared me for a while because it froze for no apparent reason. After fixing this, the table contains this two guys here:
%CPU
Firefox: 80%~100%
X: 0~20%

Graphic intensive test, so I think the X usage is normal. It might be some oddity at the Firefox+Linux+Flash sum, maybe a conflict. I'll try another browser.

EDIT:
Did a Javascript benchmark to test both systems and browsers.
Windows XP + Firefox = 4361.4ms
Arch + Firefox = 5146.0ms

So, it's actually a lot slower without even taking Flash into account. If someone knows a platform-independent benchmark to test both systems completely, and not only the browser, feel free to point out.

I think that something is already wrong here and the lack of power saving systems only aggravated the problem, causing overheat.

EDIT2:
Browser performance fixed: migrated to Midori. Flash stills slower than on Windows, but now it's bearable. Pretty neat browser too, goes better with the Arch Way. It shouldn't fix the temperature, however.

Applied B's idea, but didn't test yet. I'm not into the mood of playing flash games for two straight hours today.

Last edited by BoppreH (2009-05-03 04:25:20)

Arch Linux

#1 2009-05-01 22:12:15

Poor performance and overheat

#2 2009-05-01 22:21:04

Re: Poor performance and overheat

#3 2009-05-01 23:45:30

Re: Poor performance and overheat

#4 2009-05-01 23:58:13

Re: Poor performance and overheat

#5 2009-05-02 01:26:34

Re: Poor performance and overheat

#6 2009-05-02 02:03:59

Re: Poor performance and overheat

#7 2009-05-02 02:53:10

Re: Poor performance and overheat

#8 2009-05-02 09:29:29

Re: Poor performance and overheat

#9 2009-05-02 13:55:26

Re: Poor performance and overheat

#10 2009-05-02 15:33:19

Re: Poor performance and overheat

#11 2009-05-02 16:12:58

Re: Poor performance and overheat

#12 2009-05-02 17:19:32

Re: Poor performance and overheat

#13 2009-05-02 17:57:08

Re: Poor performance and overheat

#14 2009-05-02 19:02:56

Re: Poor performance and overheat

#15 2009-05-02 19:49:43

Re: Poor performance and overheat

#16 2009-05-02 21:18:47

Re: Poor performance and overheat

#17 2009-05-02 22:52:35

Re: Poor performance and overheat

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