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#1 2004-11-11 22:44:10

phrakture
Arch Overlord
From: behind you
Registered: 2003-10-29
Posts: 7,879
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BSD flavors

Hey all,
I've never tried BSD, and I have a spare computer (well, it's running Arch, but it's just a local network file server) so I wanted to try it out.

First question: I want to move my partitions around abit and stick the files on here at the end of the disk... the rest of the disk will be used for freebsd installation - whats the safest way to go about resizing partitions and things like that - I don't want to clobber anything

Second question: What's the "best" BSD flavor - I've been looking at FreeBSD (of course) as well as DragonFly and Darwin.  I've heard Open/Net BSDs aren't that great.  Let me know some opinions on this if ya can.

Thanks in advance

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#2 2004-11-11 23:37:05

lanrat
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 2003-10-28
Posts: 1,274

Re: BSD flavors

Since you're using arch on this computer that probably means it's a 686. Then IMO you should start with the latest FreeBSD 5.3 (and its handbook of course). Dragonfly is still too young but sounds interesting especially if it's an smp machine. NetBSD is cool too but not as "big" as FreeBSD. But if you find more time you can try it too. I'm not going to write anything about OpenBSD to not start the flamewar :-)

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#3 2004-11-12 00:08:21

cactus
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Re: BSD flavors

lanrat wrote:

Since you're using arch on this computer that probably means it's a 686. Then IMO you should start with the latest FreeBSD 5.3 (and its handbook of course). Dragonfly is still too young but sounds interesting especially if it's an smp machine. NetBSD is cool too but not as "big" as FreeBSD. But if you find more time you can try it too. I'm not going to write anything about OpenBSD to not start the flamewar :-)

good advice. I second most all of it.
With the exception of NetBSD being not as "big" as FreeBSD. OpenBSD was actually a fork of NetBSD (if I remember correctly). NetBSD will run on just about anything..including a toaster! lol
But it is true that FreeBSD has more users than NetBSD, and more software in ports..
*scratches chin* hmm..maybe that is what lanrat meant..in that case, I agree with him there too!
big_smile


"Be conservative in what you send; be liberal in what you accept." -- Postel's Law
"tacos" -- Cactus' Law
"t̥͍͎̪̪͗a̴̻̩͈͚ͨc̠o̩̙͈ͫͅs͙͎̙͊ ͔͇̫̜t͎̳̀a̜̞̗ͩc̗͍͚o̲̯̿s̖̣̤̙͌ ̖̜̈ț̰̫͓ạ̪͖̳c̲͎͕̰̯̃̈o͉ͅs̪ͪ ̜̻̖̜͕" -- -̖͚̫̙̓-̺̠͇ͤ̃ ̜̪̜ͯZ͔̗̭̞ͪA̝͈̙͖̩L͉̠̺͓G̙̞̦͖O̳̗͍

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#4 2004-11-12 00:36:32

phrakture
Arch Overlord
From: behind you
Registered: 2003-10-29
Posts: 7,879
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Re: BSD flavors

anyone mess with OpenDarwin? sounds promissing if its the core ind OS X

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#5 2004-11-12 07:55:21

oscar
Member
From: Linköping, Sweden
Registered: 2004-08-13
Posts: 457

Re: BSD flavors

I've never used NetBSD (well, not for more than 10 minutes), but I've only had good experiences with both OpenBSD and FreeBSD.
what do you intend to learn? is it to create a 'secure' firewall or simply play?
OpenBSD is written and constructed after security and not scalability, while FreeBSD scales pretty well (not as well as the linux 2.6 kernels).


To err is human... to really foul up requires the root password.

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#6 2004-11-12 15:15:08

phrakture
Arch Overlord
From: behind you
Registered: 2003-10-29
Posts: 7,879
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Re: BSD flavors

oscar wrote:

what do you intend to learn?.

eh, I just know there's some differences between linux/bsd but I am unsure as to the exact differences.  I tend to be a glutton for knowledge, so I'm just going to mess with it - that box will remain a file server (local only) but I'll throw bsd on it to mess with when i get free time

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#7 2004-11-12 16:46:21

cereal
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From: Switzerland
Registered: 2004-08-29
Posts: 29
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Re: BSD flavors

Something that might interest you: OSNews linked an article on onlamp.com about the differences of Linux and BSD from a user perspective just today:
http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2004/11 … asics.html


"I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream. That's my nightmare." - (Kurtz, Apocalypse Now)

A few PKGBUILDs

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#8 2004-11-12 18:39:07

phrakture
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From: behind you
Registered: 2003-10-29
Posts: 7,879
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Re: BSD flavors

after looking through that doc, and the linked doc describing the ports sytem, I think I'm set on FreeBSD.

As for my resizing question - I noticed that the stuff I wanted to keep was 27gigs on a 30gig partition, so resizing that partition would be kinda lame - I copied all of them over to my laptop (through samba - took hours) and am going to reformat and put everything back on there.

PS As for backing up large chunks of media like that, I'm torn between grabbing a large (250+) external harddrive or a dvd writer (don't have one yet - no need).  Both schemes have pros and cons... anyone have any input?

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#9 2004-11-12 21:09:51

vicious
Member
Registered: 2004-11-09
Posts: 113

Re: BSD flavors

Has anyone tried OpenDarwin?

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#10 2004-11-12 21:16:25

oscar
Member
From: Linköping, Sweden
Registered: 2004-08-13
Posts: 457

Re: BSD flavors

vicious wrote:

Has anyone tried OpenDarwin?

http://www.opendarwin.org/en/faq/ch01.h … _would_use
OpenDarwin in its current state is not a fully-featured operating system that is recommended to be deployed on production machines.

I don't think that's a great idea, really.


To err is human... to really foul up requires the root password.

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#11 2004-11-12 22:34:03

punkrockguy318
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From: New Jersey
Registered: 2004-02-15
Posts: 707
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Re: BSD flavors

I hear OpenBSD is the most secure BSD out there.  After all, they developed ssh.  Never used it though.


If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.   1 Corinthians 13:2

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#12 2004-11-13 03:17:01

afu
Member
From: Tuscalooser, Alabummer
Registered: 2004-02-19
Posts: 155

Re: BSD flavors

I ran FreeBSD 4.10 for a few months. It ain't like Linux. Pretty nifty but I wasn't overly thrilled with compilling everything. The ports concept was ok if you have fast internet. I  might consider it for a server, but too painful for a desktop setup.

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#13 2004-11-13 05:39:01

cactus
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Posts: 4,615
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Re: BSD flavors

*cough* I hate openbsd *cough*


"Be conservative in what you send; be liberal in what you accept." -- Postel's Law
"tacos" -- Cactus' Law
"t̥͍͎̪̪͗a̴̻̩͈͚ͨc̠o̩̙͈ͫͅs͙͎̙͊ ͔͇̫̜t͎̳̀a̜̞̗ͩc̗͍͚o̲̯̿s̖̣̤̙͌ ̖̜̈ț̰̫͓ạ̪͖̳c̲͎͕̰̯̃̈o͉ͅs̪ͪ ̜̻̖̜͕" -- -̖͚̫̙̓-̺̠͇ͤ̃ ̜̪̜ͯZ͔̗̭̞ͪA̝͈̙͖̩L͉̠̺͓G̙̞̦͖O̳̗͍

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#14 2004-11-13 11:08:07

oscar
Member
From: Linköping, Sweden
Registered: 2004-08-13
Posts: 457

Re: BSD flavors

punkrockguy318 wrote:

I hear OpenBSD is the most secure BSD out there.  After all, they developed ssh.  Never used it though.

OpenBSD is secure by default - that is a great thing, esp when you feel paranoid and wan't to secure your home network smile


To err is human... to really foul up requires the root password.

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#15 2004-11-13 12:04:10

lanrat
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 2003-10-28
Posts: 1,274

Re: BSD flavors

lanrat wrote:

I'm not going to write anything about OpenBSD to not start the flamewar :-)

You see? :-)

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#16 2004-11-13 14:41:44

scottro
Member
From: NYC
Registered: 2002-10-11
Posts: 454
Website

Re: BSD flavors

The onlamp article is written by Dru, who is a heavy BSD advocate--she recently put out a pamphlet that's online somewhere, BSD success stories and is very active in it.  It's a nice little pamphlet, more or less written for those thinking about BSD, whether they be tech or administrative--I have an article in it too, so I thought it was great.  smile

FreeBSD is probably the easiest to use for starters, the most intuitive installer, largest collection of packages and such---NetBSD is actually somewhat slower, especially out of the box.  It's a bit more primitive.

The BSDs are source based, so building packages like X and such can take awhile.   The base install, however, is rather quick.

One tihng it has going for it is superior documentation--as Dru pointed out in her article, compare the two man pages.   


I'm going to modestly point to a FreeBSD page of mine, http://home.nyc.rr.com/computertaijutsu/FreeBSD53.html which gives some tips for Linux users towards the bottom.

(I also have a page on NetBSD, but it's more or less written for the FreeBSD user, and is dated, as NetBSD is up to 2.0-RC something and some things have changed.)

As Greg Lehey, author of the Complete FreeBSD wrote on some list or another, each BSD's slogan gives you an idea--FreeBSD's is the power to serve, it's probably best designed for speed and power, NetBSD's is Of course it runs NetBSD, it will run on almost anything, and OpenBSD's is something like Only one security hole in 5 years or whatever, it is known as the most secure out of the box. 


Good luck with it.  You should enjoy using it.  The differences aren't as horrendous as you might think.

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#17 2004-11-13 22:45:38

cactus
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Posts: 4,615
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Re: BSD flavors

Only 3 remote exploits in 5 years in the base install. I think that is how they gauge it. I know it is more than 1, but might only be 2 now..


"Be conservative in what you send; be liberal in what you accept." -- Postel's Law
"tacos" -- Cactus' Law
"t̥͍͎̪̪͗a̴̻̩͈͚ͨc̠o̩̙͈ͫͅs͙͎̙͊ ͔͇̫̜t͎̳̀a̜̞̗ͩc̗͍͚o̲̯̿s̖̣̤̙͌ ̖̜̈ț̰̫͓ạ̪͖̳c̲͎͕̰̯̃̈o͉ͅs̪ͪ ̜̻̖̜͕" -- -̖͚̫̙̓-̺̠͇ͤ̃ ̜̪̜ͯZ͔̗̭̞ͪA̝͈̙͖̩L͉̠̺͓G̙̞̦͖O̳̗͍

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#18 2004-11-13 23:17:40

oscar
Member
From: Linköping, Sweden
Registered: 2004-08-13
Posts: 457

Re: BSD flavors

cactus wrote:

Only 3 remote exploits in 5 years in the base install. I think that is how they gauge it. I know it is more than 1, but might only be 2 now..

are you talking about OpenBSD or FreeBSD?


To err is human... to really foul up requires the root password.

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#19 2004-11-14 08:43:01

cactus
Taco Eater
From: t͈̫̹ͨa͖͕͎̱͈ͨ͆ć̥̖̝o̫̫̼s͈̭̱̞͍̃!̰
Registered: 2004-05-25
Posts: 4,615
Website

Re: BSD flavors

open


"Be conservative in what you send; be liberal in what you accept." -- Postel's Law
"tacos" -- Cactus' Law
"t̥͍͎̪̪͗a̴̻̩͈͚ͨc̠o̩̙͈ͫͅs͙͎̙͊ ͔͇̫̜t͎̳̀a̜̞̗ͩc̗͍͚o̲̯̿s̖̣̤̙͌ ̖̜̈ț̰̫͓ạ̪͖̳c̲͎͕̰̯̃̈o͉ͅs̪ͪ ̜̻̖̜͕" -- -̖͚̫̙̓-̺̠͇ͤ̃ ̜̪̜ͯZ͔̗̭̞ͪA̝͈̙͖̩L͉̠̺͓G̙̞̦͖O̳̗͍

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#20 2004-11-14 10:54:04

oscar
Member
From: Linköping, Sweden
Registered: 2004-08-13
Posts: 457

Re: BSD flavors

anyhow - a person that runs OpenBSD on any computer tends to be a person that knows how to update his (or hers) system when something serious comes up.

on the other hand - how many remote exploits has the linux kernel run into the latest 2-3 years? smile


To err is human... to really foul up requires the root password.

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#21 2004-11-14 21:35:21

cactus
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From: t͈̫̹ͨa͖͕͎̱͈ͨ͆ć̥̖̝o̫̫̼s͈̭̱̞͍̃!̰
Registered: 2004-05-25
Posts: 4,615
Website

Re: BSD flavors

1 ?
It is really hard for a kernel to have a remote exploit.
Apps running on top of the kernel...definately.
The only remote one I can think of is the tcp/ip stack vulnerability, but that wasn't an exploit. It had to do with guessing the sequence number, so it was more of a problem for apps that needed to ensure that packets were actually coming from the right host, in the proper sequence.

Seriously, I could care less who runs openbsd and who doesn't. Don't even try convincing me of anything, because my mind is made up, and I have support to back it up. I truly hope you success in running any bsd that you choose. All have their strong points, and weakpoints.
And I don't appreciate the underhanded negative comment just because I have a different opinion.

a person that runs OpenBSD on any computer tends to be a person that knows how to update his (or hers) system when something serious comes up.

This is an attempt to make it seem like I don't know anything about updating. Please keep snide comments to yourself. And grow up. I could care less about getting into a dick measuring contest over the merits of one operating system over another.


"Be conservative in what you send; be liberal in what you accept." -- Postel's Law
"tacos" -- Cactus' Law
"t̥͍͎̪̪͗a̴̻̩͈͚ͨc̠o̩̙͈ͫͅs͙͎̙͊ ͔͇̫̜t͎̳̀a̜̞̗ͩc̗͍͚o̲̯̿s̖̣̤̙͌ ̖̜̈ț̰̫͓ạ̪͖̳c̲͎͕̰̯̃̈o͉ͅs̪ͪ ̜̻̖̜͕" -- -̖͚̫̙̓-̺̠͇ͤ̃ ̜̪̜ͯZ͔̗̭̞ͪA̝͈̙͖̩L͉̠̺͓G̙̞̦͖O̳̗͍

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#22 2004-11-14 21:57:01

oscar
Member
From: Linköping, Sweden
Registered: 2004-08-13
Posts: 457

Re: BSD flavors

cactus wrote:

1 ?
It is really hard for a kernel to have a remote exploit.
Apps running on top of the kernel...definately.
The only remote one I can think of is the tcp/ip stack vulnerability, but that wasn't an exploit. It had to do with guessing the sequence number, so it was more of a problem for apps that needed to ensure that packets were actually coming from the right host, in the proper sequence.

Seriously, I could care less who runs openbsd and who doesn't. Don't even try convincing me of anything, because my mind is made up, and I have support to back it up. I truly hope you success in running any bsd that you choose. All have their strong points, and weakpoints.
And I don't appreciate the underhanded negative comment just because I have a different opinion.

a person that runs OpenBSD on any computer tends to be a person that knows how to update his (or hers) system when something serious comes up.

This is an attempt to make it seem like I don't know anything about updating. Please keep snide comments to yourself. And grow up. I could care less about getting into a dick measuring contest over the merits of one operating system over another.

I didn't mean to be rude or anything sad


To err is human... to really foul up requires the root password.

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#23 2004-11-14 22:19:48

scottro
Member
From: NYC
Registered: 2002-10-11
Posts: 454
Website

Re: BSD flavors

Cactus, I wonder if you're seeing things that weren't there--I don't think they meant to say you don't know how to update.

Anyway, as far as OpenBSD goes, Theo and his merry persons audit all code.  Now, I don't know how closely they audit their ports' code as well, I'm not an expert on OpenBSD.  (Not that I'm an expert on Free, either, but I use it at home and work).

At any rate, it is designed with security as its first goal.  I've only installed it once or twice--at home, I have an LCD monitor, and when trying to partition the disk, I have to guess as things go off the screen.  smile

Anyway, I like the BSDs but one can, of course, dig up all sorts of technical reasons to support what is, in the end, an emotional decision.  smile

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#24 2004-11-14 22:46:27

cactus
Taco Eater
From: t͈̫̹ͨa͖͕͎̱͈ͨ͆ć̥̖̝o̫̫̼s͈̭̱̞͍̃!̰
Registered: 2004-05-25
Posts: 4,615
Website

Re: BSD flavors

scottro wrote:

Cactus, I wonder if you're seeing things that weren't there

hmm...mayhaps. If this is the case, I apologize for my ranting.
Had a bad weekend (pipe broke in the house), so my fuse is short. Still, no excuse for me not being civil. Please accept my apology.

If, on the other hand, it was meant as a sidehanded affront..then.  :evil:

No diving..everyone out of the pool.


"Be conservative in what you send; be liberal in what you accept." -- Postel's Law
"tacos" -- Cactus' Law
"t̥͍͎̪̪͗a̴̻̩͈͚ͨc̠o̩̙͈ͫͅs͙͎̙͊ ͔͇̫̜t͎̳̀a̜̞̗ͩc̗͍͚o̲̯̿s̖̣̤̙͌ ̖̜̈ț̰̫͓ạ̪͖̳c̲͎͕̰̯̃̈o͉ͅs̪ͪ ̜̻̖̜͕" -- -̖͚̫̙̓-̺̠͇ͤ̃ ̜̪̜ͯZ͔̗̭̞ͪA̝͈̙͖̩L͉̠̺͓G̙̞̦͖O̳̗͍

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#25 2004-11-14 23:17:33

scottro
Member
From: NYC
Registered: 2002-10-11
Posts: 454
Website

Re: BSD flavors

Heh--I had a bad week (though the weekend was ok).  Anyway, that last line of yours cracked me up, (the one if they did mean bad things) 

Snickering away here.

Actually, the whole line about people who do x know how to do y made me think of a line on the firefox help site, that I thought might insult MS users.  It goes into detail about how to create a directory and then for Linux says, "If you're using Linux, I assume you know how to create a directory."  smile

As far as it goes though, each operating system, (and each distribution) has its own way of doing things.  I happen to know about Free and Net BSD as well as ArchLinux, and how to update them, but there are all sorts of distros that I don't know how to update.   Each distribution (and O/S) has a little learning curve--I used to know all the fancy switches for RPM, but having not used RH in a couple of years, I've forgotten them.

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