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#1 2011-11-17 10:23:28

Dumbledore
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From: Mumbai, India
Registered: 2011-04-27
Posts: 56

Arch ecosystem atop LinuxFromScratch?

Has anyone tried this? Can this be done? Any general ideas on how it can be achieved?

I'm planning to start with a LFS project in the coming week. Doing this mostly for the learning, but it would be 'cool' if the Arch awesomeness can be had with it.


GNU/Linux: Keep your options "open".

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#2 2011-11-17 10:25:52

bangkok_manouel
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Re: Arch ecosystem atop LinuxFromScratch?

what do you mean, using arch packages with LFS? then save yourself some huge headaches and use arch because that probably wont work.

/edit: well, you could use pacman+makepkg on the top of LFS but you'll need to rewrite a lot of [core] PKGBUILDs i guess. after all, everything is possible, even using arch binaries but... well... ahem. why not.

Last edited by bangkok_manouel (2011-11-17 10:34:50)


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#3 2011-11-17 10:37:22

Dumbledore
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From: Mumbai, India
Registered: 2011-04-27
Posts: 56

Re: Arch ecosystem atop LinuxFromScratch?

Yeah. That's the sort of thing I mean. Is it possible? Also, will you please take a few minutes to explain why it will not work. I'd like to understand how distributions are made from scratch. Thanks.

Sorry, I forgot to mention that I was gonna try this on a VirtualBox setup. Arch is my long-standing love in the OSland. smile


GNU/Linux: Keep your options "open".

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#4 2011-11-17 10:39:52

Dumbledore
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From: Mumbai, India
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Posts: 56

Re: Arch ecosystem atop LinuxFromScratch?

bangkok_manouel wrote:

/edit: well, you could use pacman+makepkg on the top of LFS but you'll need to rewrite a lot of [core] PKGBUILDs i guess. after all, everything is possible, even using arch binaries but... well... ahem. why not.

That is something like what I was going for. So it is theoretically possible to tinker with the PKGBUILDs. Will pacman be easily ported(?) to the new system? Plus, since I'm only doing this as a hobby, I can do this spread over a long time. Even months.


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#5 2011-11-17 10:40:49

trontonic
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Registered: 2008-07-21
Posts: 80

Re: Arch ecosystem atop LinuxFromScratch?

If you first install LFS and then pacman, I assume pacman will overwrite the packages you have already have installed when install or upgrade packages, as they are not registered in the package database.
This may, or may not, work out fine. Try installing LFS first?

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#6 2011-11-17 10:41:05

bangkok_manouel
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Re: Arch ecosystem atop LinuxFromScratch?

there are so many reasons why it wouldn't work... first, binaries may have been against different libs. second, the system "layout" may be different. initscripts, udev rules, all of that stuff. if you really want to play with that, LFS+pacman/makepkg with your own arch-inspired PKGBUILD may give you a pretty nice system.


All design goals must be phrased in such a way that it is hard to use them as slogans to justify stupidity.

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#7 2011-11-17 10:47:04

Dumbledore
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From: Mumbai, India
Registered: 2011-04-27
Posts: 56

Re: Arch ecosystem atop LinuxFromScratch?

trontonic wrote:

If you first install LFS and then pacman, I assume pacman will overwrite the packages you have already have installed when install or upgrade packages, as they are not registered in the package database.
This may, or may not, work out fine. Try installing LFS first?

I know that this question may be a little too premature since I haven't even started with LFS first. But I just wanted to know if people who understand the internals of a distribution can provide some considerations that will provide a modifiable system later on in stead of having to start all over after successfully building a LFS system. But I see the point of your comment.


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#8 2011-11-17 10:48:40

Dumbledore
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From: Mumbai, India
Registered: 2011-04-27
Posts: 56

Re: Arch ecosystem atop LinuxFromScratch?

bangkok_manouel wrote:

there are so many reasons why it wouldn't work... first, binaries may have been against different libs. second, the system "layout" may be different. initscripts, udev rules, all of that stuff. if you really want to play with that, LFS+pacman/makepkg with your own arch-inspired PKGBUILD may give you a pretty nice system.

Can you be a little more elaborate with the arch-inspired PKGBUILD idea?

Thanks.


GNU/Linux: Keep your options "open".

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#9 2011-11-17 11:04:35

bangkok_manouel
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Re: Arch ecosystem atop LinuxFromScratch?

I forgot, a standard lfs install is pam-less too. This may turn into headaches as well.  You can clone arch abs tree to use as a template and adapt the PKGBUILDs to your lfs install, this is what I meant.


All design goals must be phrased in such a way that it is hard to use them as slogans to justify stupidity.

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#10 2011-11-17 18:59:41

/dev/zero
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From: Melbourne, Australia
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Re: Arch ecosystem atop LinuxFromScratch?

bangkok_manouel wrote:

there are so many reasons why it wouldn't work... first, binaries may have been against different libs. second, the system "layout" may be different. initscripts, udev rules, all of that stuff.

Pooh.

Any Linux distribution can be turned into any other Linux distribution, given sufficient effort.


@OP: Try it for yourself and report back.

I predict you will find it not worth the effort, but finding that out for yourself will be a good learning experience. It will teach you more about both LFS and Arch.

Last edited by /dev/zero (2011-11-17 19:03:55)


Linux is NOT Windows | The Rootless Root
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#11 2011-11-17 19:33:32

/dev/zero
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From: Melbourne, Australia
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Re: Arch ecosystem atop LinuxFromScratch?

Dumbledore wrote:

I know that this question may be a little too premature since I haven't even started with LFS first. But I just wanted to know if people who understand the internals of a distribution can provide some considerations that will provide a modifiable system later on in stead of having to start all over after successfully building a LFS system. But I see the point of your comment.

So, what is your intent? Just to learn? Then forge ahead and try it! After you've started working on it, you'll be in a much better position to realise what kind of package management system you want. Be prepared to only get all the way through after a few passes - you'll make mistakes along the way, and need to start all over again.

Note that since LFS is a source-based distro (which Arch, with its binaries, is not), you may wish to model your system after other source-based distros like Gentoo or Sourcemage. The Package Users system also has its merits, although it doesn't OOTB support dependency-tracking.

Last edited by /dev/zero (2011-11-17 19:39:10)


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#12 2011-11-17 20:02:10

bangkok_manouel
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Re: Arch ecosystem atop LinuxFromScratch?

/dev/zero wrote:
bangkok_manouel wrote:

there are so many reasons why it wouldn't work... first, binaries may have been against different libs. second, the system "layout" may be different. initscripts, udev rules, all of that stuff.

Pooh.

Any Linux distribution can be turned into any other Linux distribution, given sufficient effort.

oh really??!! you mean like... exactly what I'm saying in my first post?


All design goals must be phrased in such a way that it is hard to use them as slogans to justify stupidity.

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#13 2011-11-17 20:10:45

/dev/zero
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From: Melbourne, Australia
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Posts: 1,176
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Re: Arch ecosystem atop LinuxFromScratch?

bangkok_manouel wrote:
/dev/zero wrote:

Pooh.

Any Linux distribution can be turned into any other Linux distribution, given sufficient effort.

oh really??!! you mean like... exactly what I'm saying in my first post?

Lol, well, yeah, but your message seems to change to, "no that's impossible and you're stupid to try it", which I disagree with. If people want to do stupid things on their computers, I'd rather just let them get on with it, not try to discourage them.


Linux is NOT Windows | The Rootless Root
Toshiba Satellite i5-3230M 2.6GHz CPUs, 4Gb RAM, ArchLinux, wmii, nVidia GeForce GT 740M.

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#14 2011-11-17 20:59:18

Awebb
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Registered: 2010-05-06
Posts: 4,177

Re: Arch ecosystem atop LinuxFromScratch?

You should consume three rather big portions of information:
- LSF documentation
- ABS article on the Arch Wiki (and most of the follow-ups)
- The pacman man file.

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#15 2011-11-17 22:23:07

gazj
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Registered: 2007-02-09
Posts: 679
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Re: Arch ecosystem atop LinuxFromScratch?

/dev/zero wrote:
bangkok_manouel wrote:
/dev/zero wrote:

Pooh.

Any Linux distribution can be turned into any other Linux distribution, given sufficient effort.

oh really??!! you mean like... exactly what I'm saying in my first post?

Lol, well, yeah, but your message seems to change to, "no that's impossible and you're stupid to try it", which I disagree with. If people want to do stupid things on their computers, I'd rather just let them get on with it, not try to discourage them.

Remember this brave guy, he converted his Gentoo installation into an Arch one. smile https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=93679&p=1

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#16 2011-11-17 23:19:07

/dev/zero
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From: Melbourne, Australia
Registered: 2011-10-20
Posts: 1,176
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Re: Arch ecosystem atop LinuxFromScratch?

gazj wrote:

Remember this brave guy, he converted his Gentoo installation into an Arch one. smile https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=93679&p=1

I love the attitude in that thread :-) I bet ChrisB now knows more than just about anyone about both Gentoo and Arch.


Linux is NOT Windows | The Rootless Root
Toshiba Satellite i5-3230M 2.6GHz CPUs, 4Gb RAM, ArchLinux, wmii, nVidia GeForce GT 740M.

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#17 2011-11-17 23:58:16

poiuyt23
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Registered: 2011-10-12
Posts: 75

Re: Arch ecosystem atop LinuxFromScratch?

I guess my question is what is the effect you are trying to go for by starting with LFS and going to Arch?
If you are looking to custom build linux to your system it'd be much easier to install a minimum Arch install then drop the ABS system on it and start compiling packages. 
If the point is to experiment then clear out the calendar and try it. 
If the point is to learn about the different linuxes my input is to try them.  Currently I am running Slack and Arch on my laptop but in the past I have tried out Android X86, Mint (ugh), More Slack (once before) and maybe a couple others.  At work I play with Debian and Ubuntu.  Before all that I used to play with MacOS and BeOS.  Just play.  Have fun.

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#18 2011-11-18 01:16:25

hadrons123
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From: chennai
Registered: 2011-10-07
Posts: 1,249

Re: Arch ecosystem atop LinuxFromScratch?

how  abt doing this?

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/In … ting_Linux

but you wont have LFS anymore.


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#19 2011-11-18 01:29:34

bangkok_manouel
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From: indicates a starting point
Registered: 2005-02-07
Posts: 1,554

Re: Arch ecosystem atop LinuxFromScratch?

replacing a distro by another one should be much more simple than making two distros co-exist anyway.
a base LFS with arch packages --> wreck
turn your LFS into arch and use arch packages --> well, use arch. not very useful except the educational bits.
use the benefits of arch package management and build system on a LFS install --> useful and educational.


All design goals must be phrased in such a way that it is hard to use them as slogans to justify stupidity.

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#20 2012-02-15 23:57:37

cyberic
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Registered: 2012-01-11
Posts: 32
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Re: Arch ecosystem atop LinuxFromScratch?

I find this is an interesting thing to try and to document. I you made any progress, please post!

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#21 2012-02-16 00:44:19

Roken
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From: UK
Registered: 2012-01-16
Posts: 653

Re: Arch ecosystem atop LinuxFromScratch?

If I'm completely honest - and as someone who built LFS, and went far beyond BLFS (to a completely fully functional system with many packages built from source despite LFS veterans advising against it) my instinct is, it's possible, but honestly not worth the headache. You would have to ensure that your base system matched the Arch base system, and make sure that you built various other packages (PAM etc) before trying the mirgration. Then you would have to re-arrange your LFS filesystem (which tries, but doesn't entirely conform to FHS - but then, neither does Arch) to match an Arch system. Finally, when you make your pacman managed upgrades, there's a good chance that you will lose pretty much all the work you put in to LFS since it will be replaced by Arch.

Don't take this as talking you out of LFS - It's a massively useful experience for anyone wanting to learn the more fundamental operations of your Linux system (I learned more in 3 builds over a 6 week period than in 12 years of "Distro based" Linux usage)  And I would encourage the experience all the way. i would, however, advise against trying to migrate a home grown system to a fully developed distro. What you can take from it, however, is that after building LFS (and going past the basics) you will be far better equipped to build your own custom Arch.


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#22 2012-02-16 04:24:20

ewaller
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From: Pasadena, CA
Registered: 2009-07-13
Posts: 12,740

Re: Arch ecosystem atop LinuxFromScratch?

With LFS, you will learn what the core packages do, and what they contain.  You will learn about how to build a tool chain, how to build things with autoconf and automake, about how to chroot, and how to tweak the configuration files.  They have their own set of initscripts which are not Archy. 

LFS will take you about a week to build.  It is a little on the fragile side.  Pacman will likely break it -- if you can get pacman to run.  Pacman will not like finding all the various files throughout the file system without their existing in the pacman database.

You might want to experiment with LFS as a learning exercise.  Then try a Gentoo installation to gain a real appreciation of the myriad of build options for the various packages; and how those options have to be crafted to make the packages all work together.  On Arch, like many distributions, decisions as to how things fit together are made for you -- should things use avahi? should things support png? mpeg? oog?  etc...  On Gentoo, you get to encounter the joy of managing that yourself.  The penalty for changing your mind is hours of recompiling.


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