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#1 2005-07-25 08:57:15

arooaroo
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From: London, UK
Registered: 2005-01-13
Posts: 1,268
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Jacman 0.2 released

Hi all,

It's been a month since Jacman 0.1 appeared. I had hoped to get 0.2 out much sooner, but it's been a hectic month and I simply get the time to invest in this project. Fortunately, I've got myself a darn good sidekick - SoniX. He dived straight into the code after it was released and started submitting great patches.

PKGBUILD has been submitted to the AUR. Or, the pkg.tar.gz can be downloaded from the project webpage.

For those who haven't heard of Jacman, it's a Java-based GUI front-end to Pacman. It provides as sexy an interface you're likely to see for core tasks of installing, removing, updating and rolling-back packages.

New features for 0.2:

* Rollback package support: allows the user to rollback to a previously installed version of a given package. Only old packages still in the Pacman cache on the hard drive call be rolledback, as old versions of packages don't exist on the servers.
* Jon-Anders (SoniX) did lots of great work on the console that displays Pacman's output. It now copes with curses-based output properly.
* Talk to Pacman: now have Y/N buttons to confirm to Pacman to continue or abort the operation. V0.1 used the --no-confirm argument which wasn't ideal.
* New config option added determine whether the main window closes after a successful operation. For example, if adding a package installed without error, Jacman will close once you click "Done". It is possible to set this option to false so that you will always return to the main menu.
* Fixed empty package bug (I think!) Iphitus reported a strange bug where "empty" packages were listed.
* An Ant buildscript is now included.
* Some internal code restructuring and general code spring-cleaning.
* New license: Apache.

Thanks also to other Archers Sudman1 and Dusty for contributing.

We've got lots more in store for future releases, so keep your eyes peeled. Also, we're always looking for feedback, so please get in touch.

Enjoy smile

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#2 2005-07-25 11:20:53

bleak
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Registered: 2004-05-11
Posts: 24

Re: Jacman 0.2 released

I'm not much of a java guy but I have to admit this looks very cool.

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#3 2005-07-25 11:25:01

arooaroo
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From: London, UK
Registered: 2005-01-13
Posts: 1,268
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Re: Jacman 0.2 released

bleak wrote:

I'm not much of a java guy but I have to admit this looks very cool.

Why, thank you!

Surely the choice of language is only relevant from a development point of view? As a user, what difference does it make?

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#4 2005-07-25 12:52:30

iphitus
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From: Melbourne, Australia
Registered: 2004-10-09
Posts: 4,927

Re: Jacman 0.2 released

arooaroo wrote:
bleak wrote:

I'm not much of a java guy but I have to admit this looks very cool.

Why, thank you!

Surely the choice of language is only relevant from a development point of view? As a user, what difference does it make?

It doesnt look the same? Java uses plenty of ram?

All the same, Jacman is way cool wink

As for the rollback feature, I know theres one arch mirror which retains really olf versions of packages, it's been linked here a few times. It might be worth including support for.

iphitus

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#5 2005-07-25 13:37:40

arooaroo
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From: London, UK
Registered: 2005-01-13
Posts: 1,268
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Re: Jacman 0.2 released

iphitus wrote:

It doesnt look the same?

This doesn't strike me as being a particularly big issue from a Linux perspective. There are so many GUI toolkits which we are all exposed to on a regular basis, each of which can be heavily customised. Every Linux box I see looks different! I don't think Archer will be phased by "different", they would just be phased by poor usability - and that's a toolkit-independent issue.

Java uses plenty of ram?

I knew someone was gonna say that! Java uses more RAM than other languages but it only uses up what's available. But by default it'll only allocate upto of 64Mb of the heap - so it's not a real killer IMHO.

All the same, Jacman is way cool wink

As for the rollback feature, I know theres one arch mirror which retains really olf versions of packages, it's been linked here a few times. It might be worth including support for.

iphitus

I was aware of that mirror and I had thought about interfacing to it. It was clearly easier to use the local cache though. It should be adequate for now since rollbacks tend to occur relatively soon after an update, so the old files will still exist unless the user purges the cache *very* regularly.

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#6 2005-07-25 14:45:01

Dusty
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From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 2004-01-18
Posts: 5,986
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Re: Jacman 0.2 released

From a user's point of view, the only thing that is a problem with Java is the need to install the JRE.  Other objections are just myths that really ought not to be discussed, as they've been discussed to death elsewhere.

Somebody like me with dozens of Java apps on his system has no problem downloading that mammoth JRE, but somebody who doesn't have the JRE installed isn't going to want to download it for Jacman.

A long time ago, when I was on dialup, I refused to install any Python applications because I didn't want to download the interpreter. The JRE is much worse. ;-)

Dusty

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#7 2005-07-25 15:19:31

arooaroo
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From: London, UK
Registered: 2005-01-13
Posts: 1,268
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Re: Jacman 0.2 released

Dusty wrote:

A long time ago, when I was on dialup, I refused to install any Python applications because I didn't want to download the interpreter. The JRE is much worse. ;-)

Dusty

I know what you're saying. However, it's my assumption (misguided it maybe) that most Archers have decent connections to cope with the regular updates.

I do appreciate the JRE dep because I know it's a real pain. Unfortunately, because of how the JRE is packages in AL, it's larger (almost 2x IIRC) than the official version distrbuted by Sun as they use a better compression algorithm.

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#8 2005-07-25 15:47:29

Dusty
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From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 2004-01-18
Posts: 5,986
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Re: Jacman 0.2 released

Serious? I always thought the arch package was smaller. I guess its because when I was on dialup I had to download Sun's JRE all in one go because of their stupid no-auto-downloader policy, whereas I could break up the JRE download over several days when using pacman.

<super-rant>
The problem with many open source users when they see a program written in Java is that their first impulse is to say "Why Java?". (The second problem is that they follow that first impulse). I'm really sick of the question. Its a good language, a good interpretter, and the program being discussed at the time (in this case, Jacman, in mine, Ensmer, but we're talking Limewire, Azureus, jedit etc etc etc as well) is a good program.

I hate how every time a Java program is mentioned on this forum, some idiot decides to question the merits of Java. It starts out with (usually false) accusations about the interpreter, and then leads into (sometimes false) accusations about the language. And its the same story over and over and over.

I recently ranted against the Java language itself. I've gotten tired of programming in it, personally. But there is no reason, absolutely no reason to come down on another program or programmer soley because its written in Java.

I propose that anybody who questions another programmer's choice of programming language should be immediately banned. Its up to the developer to choose the language. Its up to the user to choose the program. They can use language as a criteria if they like, but don't complain about it.
</super-rant>

(Looks like I am in for a thread-hijacking day after all. Sorry about targetting your threads first arooaroo :-D)

Dusty

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#9 2005-07-25 15:56:44

arooaroo
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From: London, UK
Registered: 2005-01-13
Posts: 1,268
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Re: Jacman 0.2 released

Dusty wrote:

Serious? I always thought the arch package was smaller. I guess its because when I was on dialup I had to download Sun's JRE all in one go because of their stupid no-auto-downloader policy, whereas I could break up the JRE download over several days when using pacman.

Dusty

Yep - 'tis the truth I speaketh. Don't worry about it, you have a nice zippy broadband/cable connection now.

Do you - or others - agree with my assumption of Achers being non-dialup users. Clearly, you *were*, Dusty. But it always struck me that distros like Arch were suited to those Linux users who had some decent bandwidth.

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#10 2005-07-25 16:01:12

Dusty
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From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
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Re: Jacman 0.2 released

arooaroo wrote:

Do you - or others - agree with my assumption of Achers being non-dialup users. Clearly, you *were*, Dusty. But it always struck me that distros like Arch were suited to those Linux users who had some decent bandwidth.

I'm going home to dialup on Saturday. :-D

The majority of Arch users are on broadband, yes. But there are dialup users out there. We can't cater to them though -- rolling release is a high-bandwidth system. Dialup users find ways around the problems. ("Free sex for bandwidth!!" t-shirts are popular, for example)

Dusty

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#11 2005-07-25 17:19:51

xerxes2
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From: Malmoe, Sweden
Registered: 2004-04-23
Posts: 1,249
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Re: Jacman 0.2 released

java isn't opensource, that's why it sucks ass, sad
so there is a big reason why it shouldn't be used, atleast not for oss programs,


arch + gentoo + initng + python = enlisy

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#12 2005-07-25 17:29:08

Dusty
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From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
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Re: Jacman 0.2 released

xerxes2 wrote:

java isn't opensource, that's why it sucks ass, sad
so there is a big reason why it shouldn't be used, atleast not for oss programs,

That's been said before too. Its the pragmatist vs purist debate all over again.

There's nothing in the JRE license that says you can't use it for oss applications, so its not a valid argument either.

Dusty

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#13 2005-07-25 18:03:36

arooaroo
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From: London, UK
Registered: 2005-01-13
Posts: 1,268
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Re: Jacman 0.2 released

xerxes2 wrote:

java isn't opensource, that's why it sucks ass, sad
so there is a big reason why it shouldn't be used, atleast not for oss programs,

I agree in parts. There's always a little bit of me that hates how restrictive the Java license is. I do think it's only a matter of time though before they open it up. I mean, who would have thought we'd see OpenSolaris?

However, on a practical side, I have found Java to be a decent language. I'm not Java exclusive by any means - I'm a big Python fan too. I'm not purist enough to boycott Java. Just like I use closed-source graphics card drivers; I have flash and real player installed; heck, I still have a Windows partition!

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#14 2005-07-25 18:43:17

xerxes2
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From: Malmoe, Sweden
Registered: 2004-04-23
Posts: 1,249
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Re: Jacman 0.2 released

yes, that's very strange,
even sun employees were talking about ossing java long before the whole opensolaris thing,

i think they are still getting some serious money for java in the embedded market, maybe they think that that will go away if they open it,


arch + gentoo + initng + python = enlisy

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#15 2005-07-25 21:32:19

arooaroo
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From: London, UK
Registered: 2005-01-13
Posts: 1,268
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Re: Jacman 0.2 released

In a company as large as Sun, you expect to find a broad range of views covering the whole spectrum. There are good reasons either way. People cite the old compatibility headaches with various flavours of C/C++. However, people forget that one of the reasons that's almost an obsolete issue is thanks to GCC becoming so ubiquitous, fuelled by the GPL and it's reach on practically all major (and some minor) platforms.

Look at how Kaffe - an OSS JRE implementation is already spreading fast because it is being ported to many platforms that Sun simply cannot reach (as their Java team are stretched enough to cope with niche platforms). It's only an FOSS Java that will get it anywhere near it's Write-Once-Run-Anywhere utopia.

Classpath, the GNU implementation of the Java classes is continuing to gain momentum. They will always be playing catchup of course, but for most command-line apps, you should find it adequate. Once the GUI implemention is reasonable, I'll happily switch to OSS implementations of Java. However, it's still some way off. Anyway who's tried the GCJ version of Eclipse will testify to this.

Still, getting back on topic, I'm glad that non-Java fans are happy with Jacman. One of my aims was infact to make it as un-Javalike as possible to show off what Java is capible of (without tons of effort).

I'm interested in the new GtkPacman thingy that was announced recently as I'm really keen to see how "easy" it really is to do a gtk app with python. I fear that Python will lose some of its lucidity, although Java fares no better there.

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#16 2005-07-25 22:27:02

xerxes2
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From: Malmoe, Sweden
Registered: 2004-04-23
Posts: 1,249
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Re: Jacman 0.2 released

writing gtk apps in pygtk is very easy if you know how classes work which i assume works like in java,
and pygtks documentation is very good, i haven't tried libglade yet but that's also some stuff you can use,

i know you have been spamming the web with massive articles about java, and they have been very well written and right on target but my advice is that it would be better to use python or ruby if you have a choice, it's another story if you are working proffessionally and have to maintain existing projects,

redhat has been whinging about oss java for years, strange is that they are using pygtk for lots of stuff they write for their own distros, like installers and configurationtools,


arch + gentoo + initng + python = enlisy

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#17 2005-07-25 22:53:43

arooaroo
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From: London, UK
Registered: 2005-01-13
Posts: 1,268
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Re: Jacman 0.2 released

Oh man! Am I really a spammer?

You would notice though that I was very critical of Sun's licensing in my Java OSS article. If no Java users campaign for opening up Java then its even less likely to happen. Of course, the more people to switch to open languages like Python and away from Java will also help because I'm sure the main reason for OpenSolaris was a mass migration to OSS Linux/*BSD systems.

The only reason I wrote Java articles was because I had seen a number of people making comments that I believed were false and so I wanted to address some. I'd do the same for other languages - I'm not a Java zealot by any means.

Anyway, let's keep the language vs language debates for another thread. I want to keep this one for people to comment on Jacman itself. Obviously, anti-Java sentiments are acknowledged. However, that won't change for this project. I suppose we can look forward to gtkpacman (via python) giving Jacman a run for its money if it really is so easy.

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#18 2005-07-26 00:25:28

Dusty
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From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 2004-01-18
Posts: 5,986
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Re: Jacman 0.2 released

We can split the language debates, but they're kind of inextricably linked with pertinent content in this one.

Dusty

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#19 2005-07-26 13:14:25

xerxes2
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From: Malmoe, Sweden
Registered: 2004-04-23
Posts: 1,249
Website

Re: Jacman 0.2 released

it looks nice on the screenies, smile


arch + gentoo + initng + python = enlisy

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