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#1 2012-04-19 08:31:33

x33a
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Registered: 2009-08-15
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Interview with Fabio Erculiani of Sabayon Linux

I was reading this interview, and here's an interesting statement from him:

if you look at Arch binary packages, you will realize how ill their dependencies are: it reminds me the well known rpm dependency hell problem.

I was quite surprised with this statement.

pacman's dependency resolution is quite good, at least better than apt (i haven't used yum much to make a comment about it). Maybe pacman fetches more dependencies than needed sometimes, but it's never lack of them. It's not even comparable to rpm hell.

He also claims that sabayon provides the best package management amongst rolling release distros:

All the rolling distros I tried were lacking proper packaging, I mean, with Sabayon you can use both Portage (which is the most powerful source-based package manager out there) and Entropy (which is our binary Package Manager that works on top of the Gentoo Base System).
Tell me another distro that has all those things perfectly working together without annoying the (advanced) user.

Maybe it's just me, but i am quite happy with both the binaries provided by our generous package maintainers, and the abs/PKGBUILDs for all other needs. It seems he's making too many tall claims.

What do you guys think about it?

Full interview:

http://www.unixmen.com/interview-with-f … yon-linux/

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#2 2012-04-19 08:45:15

tomk
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From: Ireland
Registered: 2004-07-21
Posts: 9,837

Re: Interview with Fabio Erculiani of Sabayon Linux

Here's what I think: I don't care what he thinks. smile

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#3 2012-04-19 08:47:09

bohoomil
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Re: Interview with Fabio Erculiani of Sabayon Linux

Dependency hell? In Arch? Huh? O.o


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#4 2012-04-19 08:57:40

seveg
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From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Registered: 2012-04-17
Posts: 33

Re: Interview with Fabio Erculiani of Sabayon Linux

The question is, has anybody ran in some dependency hell with Pacman? I've never seen it myself, using Arch few years..


Just another drug abuser..

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#5 2012-04-19 09:08:25

jasonwryan
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Re: Interview with Fabio Erculiani of Sabayon Linux

if you look at Arch binary packages, you will realize how ill their dependencies are: it reminds me the well known rpm dependency hell problem.


Obvious troll is obvious.


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#6 2012-04-19 10:05:28

Gcool
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Registered: 2011-08-16
Posts: 1,456

Re: Interview with Fabio Erculiani of Sabayon Linux

The guy's trying to "sell" his own product, so he has to make it look better/superior to anything else out there. In general, who cares what he says.

And to put it with a Harry Calahan quote: "Well, opinions are like assholes. Everybody has one. "

Last edited by Gcool (2012-04-19 10:12:29)


Burninate!

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#7 2012-04-19 10:23:56

/dev/zero
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From: Melbourne, Australia
Registered: 2011-10-20
Posts: 1,176
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Re: Interview with Fabio Erculiani of Sabayon Linux

The empty can rattles the most ...


Linux is NOT Windows | The Rootless Root
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#8 2012-04-19 11:49:48

.:B:.
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Registered: 2006-11-26
Posts: 5,819

Re: Interview with Fabio Erculiani of Sabayon Linux

Well, at least one voice has to sound discordant...

Arch is fat. I guess that's what he's talking about when he says how 'ill' our dependencies are. It is a fuzzy choice of words, so it could mean a million things.

Install Debian. Install Arch. Look how much disk space they both take while providing the same functionality. Break down and weep.

Lightweight? Hell no. It's time to put that tagline on a diet.

Last edited by .:B:. (2012-04-19 11:50:10)


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#9 2012-04-19 13:42:26

x33a
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Registered: 2009-08-15
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Re: Interview with Fabio Erculiani of Sabayon Linux

.:B:. wrote:

Well, at least one voice has to sound discordant...

Arch is fat. I guess that's what he's talking about when he says how 'ill' our dependencies are. It is a fuzzy choice of words, so it could mean a million things.

Install Debian. Install Arch. Look how much disk space they both take while providing the same functionality. Break down and weep.

Lightweight? Hell no. It's time to put that tagline on a diet.

Well, i too noted that in my original post, but it can't be compared to "rpm dependency hell problem" tongue

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#10 2012-04-19 13:44:14

x33a
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Re: Interview with Fabio Erculiani of Sabayon Linux

Also, i loved this question from the interview

Why do you use the word extreme to characterize various aspects of Sabayon Linux? Extreme gaming, extreme browsing, extreme work, extreme development, extreme-rolling are just some examples found on your website. What is so extreme about Sabayon, and why is it good for an operating system to be “extreme”?

Extreme misuse of the word 'extreme' big_smile

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#11 2012-04-19 14:21:49

drcouzelis
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From: Connecticut, USA
Registered: 2009-11-09
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Re: Interview with Fabio Erculiani of Sabayon Linux

x33a wrote:

Extreme misuse of the word extreme

Aww, man. I want to do extreme browsing. sad How can I do extreme browsing in Arch Linux?

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#12 2012-04-19 14:35:08

Odaer
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Registered: 2010-08-14
Posts: 87

Re: Interview with Fabio Erculiani of Sabayon Linux

I have not seen dependency hell with a  package manager in many years, regardless of distribution and package format...

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#13 2012-04-19 14:47:46

GERGE
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From: Turkey
Registered: 2008-09-29
Posts: 157
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Re: Interview with Fabio Erculiani of Sabayon Linux

That's almost true. Only dependency hells I've seen were with openSUSE 11.something and with some packages from AUR. So, he is not that wrong but judging Arch with AUR is way wrong.

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#14 2012-04-19 15:04:51

alphaniner
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From: Ancapistan
Registered: 2010-07-12
Posts: 2,604

Re: Interview with Fabio Erculiani of Sabayon Linux

Some recent issues (updating pacman conflicts, circular dependencies, etc.) could aptly be described as dependency purgatory.


But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist.
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#15 2012-04-19 15:23:27

drcouzelis
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From: Connecticut, USA
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Re: Interview with Fabio Erculiani of Sabayon Linux

alphaniner wrote:

Some recent issues (updating pacman conflicts, circular dependencies, etc.) could aptly be described as dependency purgatory.

"Dependency purgatory" big_smile

Back when I experienced dependency hell many years ago in other distributions, it was "this package requires this package requires this package requires this package requires removing these other packages and requires praying to the package manager god requires DOWNLOAD THEM ALL MANUALLY AND FIX IT or no software for you".

Conversely, the recent issues on Arch Linux seem to be more "Huh? Check the forums, oh, run this command, ok it works now".

Last edited by drcouzelis (2012-04-19 15:25:27)

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#16 2012-04-19 19:53:22

brebs
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Registered: 2007-04-03
Posts: 3,408

Re: Interview with Fabio Erculiani of Sabayon Linux

x33a wrote:

rpm dependency hell

Haha. I'll play devil's advocate, since I don't use either distro.

In Arch, sox gets compiled with pulseaudio (even though it's only optional), which messes up its audio initialization. (Admittedly, this is due to sox's buggy code.)

Therefore Gentoo, er, I mean Sabayon, wins. Unless you count the issue where actually trying to use the "rolling" in Sabayon breaks it awfully, in the 2 times I tried it (after being a seasoned Gentoo user). So Arch wins. Unless you count that Arch is ridiculously bleeding-edge, suitable only for being an experimental toy, in which case, install whatever's highest in the Distrowatch charts tongue

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#17 2012-04-20 09:50:11

.:B:.
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Registered: 2006-11-26
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Re: Interview with Fabio Erculiani of Sabayon Linux

x33a wrote:

Well, i too noted that in my original post, but it can't be compared to "rpm dependency hell problem" tongue

That is without equal indeed big_smile


Got Leenucks? :: Arch: Power in simplicity :: Get Counted! Registered Linux User #392717 :: Blog thingy

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#18 2012-04-20 16:57:55

Bellum
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Registered: 2011-08-24
Posts: 230

Re: Interview with Fabio Erculiani of Sabayon Linux

drcouzelis wrote:
x33a wrote:

Extreme misuse of the word extreme

Aww, man. I want to do extreme browsing. sad How can I do extreme browsing in Arch Linux?

ls -R / | less

Browse through all your files extremely.

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#19 2012-04-20 18:09:41

guelfi
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From: /home/guelfi
Registered: 2011-07-01
Posts: 111

Re: Interview with Fabio Erculiani of Sabayon Linux

Bellum wrote:
drcouzelis wrote:
x33a wrote:

Extreme misuse of the word extreme

Aww, man. I want to do extreme browsing. sad How can I do extreme browsing in Arch Linux?

ls -R / | less

Browse through all your files extremely.

You, sir, just made my day!

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#20 2012-04-20 18:27:09

angryfirelord
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Registered: 2008-07-17
Posts: 5

Re: Interview with Fabio Erculiani of Sabayon Linux

All the rolling distros I tried were lacking proper packaging, I mean, with Sabayon you can use both Portage (which is the most powerful source-based package manager out there) and Entropy (which is our binary Package Manager that works on top of the Gentoo Base System).
Tell me another distro that has all those things perfectly working together without annoying the (advanced) user.

I'd actually challenge him on that. A couple binaries won't hurt (and vice-versa), but I'll guarantee you'll run into problems if your make.conf has some more "exotic" parameters. FreeBSD discourages mixing because you might have a port that gets updated with a newer library, but the package isn't built against that. As far as I know, Sabayon is still built against Gentoo's portage, so that problem would still exists if they're not timely in their package updates.

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#21 2012-04-21 10:06:51

jakobcreutzfeldt
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Registered: 2011-05-12
Posts: 1,033

Re: Interview with Fabio Erculiani of Sabayon Linux

All the rolling distros I tried were lacking proper packaging, I mean, with Sabayon you can use both Portage (which is the most powerful source-based package manager out there) and Entropy (which is our binary Package Manager that works on top of the Gentoo Base System).
Tell me another distro that has all those things perfectly working together without annoying the (advanced) user.

I'll just leave this here:

It is reccomended that you choose and use "only" one of the package managers below. Crossing back and forth can create problems for you. Entropy is recommended for less experienced users, or those preferring a less hands on approach. Portage is recommended for more experienced users who like to tweak and adjust thier system more...It is recommended to only use 1 of the package managers to avoid any possible conflicts as a result of the time delay.

(source: Sabayon Wiki)

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#22 2012-04-21 12:22:05

x33a
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Registered: 2009-08-15
Posts: 3,252
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Re: Interview with Fabio Erculiani of Sabayon Linux

jakobcreutzfeldt wrote:

All the rolling distros I tried were lacking proper packaging, I mean, with Sabayon you can use both Portage (which is the most powerful source-based package manager out there) and Entropy (which is our binary Package Manager that works on top of the Gentoo Base System).
Tell me another distro that has all those things perfectly working together without annoying the (advanced) user.

I'll just leave this here:

It is reccomended that you choose and use "only" one of the package managers below. Crossing back and forth can create problems for you. Entropy is recommended for less experienced users, or those preferring a less hands on approach. Portage is recommended for more experienced users who like to tweak and adjust thier system more...It is recommended to only use 1 of the package managers to avoid any possible conflicts as a result of the time delay.

(source: Sabayon Wiki)

lol, must have been edited by an arch user wink

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#23 2012-04-21 12:43:40

triplesquarednine
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Registered: 2011-04-12
Posts: 630

Re: Interview with Fabio Erculiani of Sabayon Linux

Fabio's perspective obviously holds a bias.

I have used Sayabon Linux - For about 6 months on a machine. Generally, i did like the distro but it did come with it's own set of problems (that may or may not be an issue, anymore).

For one their package manager was slow in comparison to any other package manager, that i have ever used. Secondly ~ at least when i used Sabayon, using both portage and their packages, was (sort of) a big no no - and often led to problems, for some users. It could be done, but it made things more complicated, and i remember breaking my install more than once... It wasn't comparable, nor as easy to use/maintain as using Arch's packages && ABS && AUR.

As for dependency hell. I have no idea what he is talking about. In fact, generally speaking, dependency hell, as it is called - has never been an issue for me. Not with Fedora, Arch, or pretty much any other distro that i have used extensively. Ubuntu probably was the worst for this kind of thing for me.

The worst i have ever seen in this regard (on Arch) would be the once in a blue moon, that i might need to uninstall a package, install some related package and then re-install the package that i had uninstalled. But i couldn't label that as dependency hell. As hell is (supposedly) a place where bad people burn for forever.... but let's be honest, having to fix some circular dependency once or twice a year - hardly qualifies as some form of hell. LOL. wink

my 2 cents

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#24 2012-04-21 17:51:34

ANOKNUSA
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Registered: 2010-10-22
Posts: 2,141

Re: Interview with Fabio Erculiani of Sabayon Linux

All the rolling distros I tried were lacking proper packaging, I mean, with Sabayon you can use both Portage (which is the most powerful source-based package manager out there) and Entropy (which is our binary Package Manager that works on top of the Gentoo Base System).
Tell me another distro that has all those things perfectly working together without annoying the (advanced) user.

All those (2) things don't work perfectly together, as other users have stated and as I've experienced personally.  Sabayon was the last distro I tried before checking out Arch, and there's a reason I haven't looked back.  I find pacman and makepkg far more elegant than Portage, and Entropy was still undergoing a lot of work.  No, this interview was clearly the classic troll/sales pitch/FUD combo.  It would seem that perhaps Sabayon's developers and community don't offer other Linux communities the same basic courtesies that we do.

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#25 2012-04-21 19:52:37

/dev/zero
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From: Melbourne, Australia
Registered: 2011-10-20
Posts: 1,176
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Re: Interview with Fabio Erculiani of Sabayon Linux

ANOKNUSA wrote:

It would seem that perhaps Sabayon's developers and community don't offer other Linux communities the same basic courtesies that we do.

I don't think it's really about courtesy. I anticipate that forum guideline was based on this recognition: distro trolling is always based on ignorance, and never helps. By not allowing distro trolls, we're just doing ourselves a favour. It helps keep the signal-to-noise high.

Fabio Erculiani can disrespect Arch if he wants. He does us a favour if he scares away people who can't think for themselves. Meanwhile, he's not doing himself any favours. He's clearly ignorant and also comes across as a bit of a douche. Once upon a time, I was tempted to take Sabayon for a spin. Now I am less inclined than ever - I don't trust this person to put together a quality distro.


Linux is NOT Windows | The Rootless Root
Toshiba Satellite i5-3230M 2.6GHz CPUs, 4Gb RAM, ArchLinux, wmii, nVidia GeForce GT 740M.

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