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#76 2012-07-25 15:39:11

blackout23
Member
Registered: 2011-11-16
Posts: 780

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

The system you got from core snapshots was worthless anyway without internet. Seriously try out the new install scripts in VM it's a lot better than AIF. Faster, leaner and simpler.
Once you have done your first install you probably won't need to see the wiki again it's that intuitive. Just for fun I installed Arch with Gnome Desktop one a 56k GPRS Thethering connection. Took about 6 hours to get "base" to download on 7 kb/s but it worked. Total download size for base + gnome + xserver is just 320 MB.

I think it would be a good idea to have a some instructions with /arch/installdocs or something which you could run on tty2.

Last edited by blackout23 (2012-07-25 15:41:19)

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#77 2012-07-25 17:11:11

MajorTom
Member
From: Canada, GTA
Registered: 2008-09-12
Posts: 58

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

blackout23 wrote:

I think it would be a good idea to have a some instructions with /arch/installdocs or something which you could run on tty2.

/root/README containing https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Ar … ll_Scripts in plaint text would be good.

I realize that setting up network is not difficult. I know that the wiki can be accessed from console. I still think that including the "Install Scripts" wiki page would be a good idea.

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#78 2012-07-25 18:34:55

anonymous_user
Member
Registered: 2009-08-28
Posts: 3,058

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

anonymous_user wrote:

BTW I was unable to get the iso to boot under VMware Player although VirtualBox worked fine. Any ideas? This is on Windows.

Apparently the default setting has the cdrom device AFTER the hard disk for booting. At least the problem was not the ISO.

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#79 2012-07-25 21:19:08

Potomac
Member
Registered: 2011-12-25
Posts: 333

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

do you know the procedure for setting a network with static ip adress ?

the wiki guide installation only talks about dhcp configuration,

I presume I must use this syntax :

ip addr add <ip address>/<netmask> dev <interface>

for example:

ip addr add 192.168.1.2/24 dev eth0

and for gateway :

ip route add default via <ip address>

for example:

ip route add default via 192.168.1.1

but how can I set the DNS address during the installation procedure with the new iso install media ?

Last edited by Potomac (2012-07-25 21:19:38)

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#80 2012-07-25 21:30:13

Gusar
Member
Registered: 2009-08-25
Posts: 3,447

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

Potomac wrote:

but how can I set the DNS address during the installation procedure with the new iso install media ?

echo "nameserver 8.8.8.8" >> /etc/resolv.conf
echo "nameserver 8.8.4.4" >> /etc/resolv.conf

That's Google's DNS servers, you can of course use any valid sever address instead of those.

Last edited by Gusar (2012-07-25 21:35:15)

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#81 2012-07-25 21:34:09

karol
Archivist
Registered: 2009-05-06
Posts: 25,428

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

Gusar wrote:
Potomac wrote:

but how can I set the DNS address during the installation procedure with the new iso install media ?

echo "nameserver 8.8.8.8 >> /etc/resolv.conf
echo "nameserver 8.8.4.4 >> /etc/resolv.conf

That's Google's DNS servers, you can of course use any valid sever address instead of those.

echo "nameserver 8.8.8.8" >> /etc/resolv.conf
echo "nameserver 8.8.4.4" >> /etc/resolv.conf

You missed closing quote.

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#82 2012-07-25 21:35:03

Gusar
Member
Registered: 2009-08-25
Posts: 3,447

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

karol wrote:

You missed closing quote.

Oops! Will edit my post.

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#83 2012-07-26 05:33:38

andmars
Member
Registered: 2012-03-13
Posts: 155

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

has anyone else noticed that during the installation process the computer is running really at max? My PC is getting really loud and produces a lot of heat while I'm partitioning and pacstraping. This wasn't the case during the AIF process in the past. I know that CPU and GPU don't clock down during the process but I've never had my PC running at this maximum before while installing arch.

Last edited by andmars (2012-07-26 05:33:59)

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#84 2012-07-26 06:30:12

zebulon
Member
Registered: 2008-10-20
Posts: 235

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

Potomac wrote:

do you know the procedure for setting a network with static ip adress ?

the wiki guide installation only talks about dhcp configuration,

The documentation is still a work in progress. For the moment, it refers to https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Co … assignment for static IP. You also need to put your DNS in /etc/resolv.conf.

Last edited by zebulon (2012-07-26 06:31:29)

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#85 2012-07-26 08:36:32

hoschi
Member
From: Ulm (Germany)
Registered: 2008-11-03
Posts: 358
Website

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

karol wrote:
hoschi wrote:

Running away from problems doesn't fix anything, nor improve anything.
Fixing it, improves it and won't harm anybody.

I've already suggested how can you do it yourself: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php … 2#p1135272
Is there a problem with this solution?

No. I will install Arch on my new computer next weekend (coincidence: but will make it more interesting!). After this I will have a broader view about the new installation image itself.
Then I will try to create a simple and straight solution for offline installation.

At the moment I think about a entry in the mirror file to a local repo on the image itself.
Rationale: Easy and concise

Maybe I will include some files from extra repo to?
e.g. vim, emacs, gcc, make, patch, git, fbida, mplayer2 (not more!)

So people can get a base system and do the basic tasks?


Awebb wrote:

The workflow is now different. In the past, you downloaded the core image and installed it. Today you download the netinst image, fetch the base packages and install the packages from those files. This is one simple (highly script-friendly) additional step for you, saving our devs bandwidth, tests and other valuable time they could invest in a better system or even their free time. Nothing stopps you from keeping a snapshot of [core] on a CD, that's really all you need.

 sudo pacman -Sw `pacman -Ss | grep core/ | awk '{print $1}'`

I know, I need to learn more awk to save pipes and this is not the most elegant way, but downloading a whole repo is too easy to have it as an excuse for more work for the devs. You should, by the way, also keep a copy of the sync db of pacman, because it might complain or simply refuse to work as expected.


@vacant: Now you said something… if I think about it, the installer wouldn't have to be based on Arch at all, you can install Arch from anything that can mount linux filesystems and run pacman. Okay, it should be Linux, (/dev/ and so on for the chroot…), but the installer could be trimmed down even more.

progandy wrote:
Awebb wrote:

I know, I need to learn more awk to save pipes and this is not the most elegant way, but downloading a whole repo is too easy to have it as an excuse for more work for the devs. You should, by the way, also keep a copy of the sync db of pacman, because it might complain or simply refuse to work as expected.

The wiki contains a whole article about creating a mirror: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Local_Mirror

stargeizer wrote:

Honestly, i don't know why the fuss... As of Today, the old CD installer still work just fine as long as you:

- Do a network install
- Use syslinux as a boot loader.

Yes,  i just installed arch this way, on a bare machine. From what i can see, the AIF only requires an update to support GRUB 2 and a local core snapshot for those who need an offline installer.

The "packages signed" problem is not a problem when you are installing this way, but once installed and rebooted, is higly probable you'll want to disable the signature check (I have defined SigLevel with "Never" for the time being), as a base install doesn't have enough entropy to make "pacman-key --init" work in reasonable time, and in somewhat older computers is just impractical. ("move your mouse", yeah right... you don't even have xorg installed and people says that... sigh... just what were you smoking??)


Thank you all! Good example for "How people should work together" smile

Last edited by hoschi (2012-07-26 08:45:05)

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#86 2012-07-26 08:59:53

hoschi
Member
From: Ulm (Germany)
Registered: 2008-11-03
Posts: 358
Website

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

tuxfusion wrote:

Have to blow off some steam. I can't count the years I'm with Arch and how many pc /arm I've setup , recommended or otherwise loved Arch. But 2012 is by far the most fucked up year I've seen. Either Devs want to shut it down and get rid of the users before that or they don't give a shit imho. The current situation is a joke. Oh yeah glibc update anyone else need reinstall  ( no i tried all suggestions) ? Pacman 4 keyring update making system unusable ... list is endless .. I've to setup 10 laptops for a hospital charity project and am not fucking touching this image for sure. Call me a noob I don't care ... Getting latest ubuntu install , hf !

If doesn't face big problems. Instead Arch seems to be need less work in a year than Fedora (two major upgrades or installations in a year). And Fedora really needs a lot of less work than a complete installation of Windows and its maintenance.

But I have to admit, that I know that Arch was lacking of package-signing for the years. So I used it immediately after the release of pacman 4.0, where I was forced to read everything about it and after around two days I understand it. So the final activiation of package-signing doesn't even hit me, I just checked the keys in a brief look again.

Move of "/lib" doesn't should hit regular users. And so it worked! But I use self compiled kernels (no regular use)! I've read the news/wiki and noted, that I have to remove my "/lib/modules/kernel_name_dir". Fixed!

a) really read every pacman message, news and wiki if something changes
b) try to look forward, if big changes are coming (use package-signing before it is a MUST, upgrade a test-only-box before a productive-box...)


But I also know: Sometimes something is broken, but none of the developers foreseen the issue and is not affeced (because it is not a regular use of x or y). And also you as user didn't expected problems.
But wait: We're a community and this is a forum :-) Lets work togehter and help each other.

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#87 2012-07-26 09:18:41

hoschi
Member
From: Ulm (Germany)
Registered: 2008-11-03
Posts: 358
Website

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

twelveeighty wrote:
tlmiller wrote:

Obviously noone cares in the development team what the minority want/like

There has been similar posts in this thread regarding such as things as the "development team" or the "devs". What people forget is that *you* are the development team. Apple products are made by Apple, MS products by MS, Linux software is made by the community. It's not a matter of "caring", it's a matter of finding the spare time.

And, for the record, your statement is factually incorrect. The "devs" are the minority. If "they" were the majority, we would not be short of maintainers for the AIF script and this discussion would have never happened....

Well. I don't miss AIF so much. It is not a feature which enables/disables possibilities. Installers make things just easier, or more complicated wink


In general the problem of most projects is not that "devs" doing bad work, or drive the project in a direction the "users" don't want. It just a lack of communication on both sides:

Did anyone know that offline-installation/core-repo will be removed?
Did anyone know that AIF will be removed?
Did anyone know that 32/64 get put into on image?
Did anyone know that a new install media is in production?

To be honest: I just heared about the last thing as a rumor. Not more. Biggest part of this problem is that IRC, mailing-lists, forum-discussions and even blog-posts are not a reliable way ofcommuncation. Only news on the homepage are! This problem also hits Gnome. Especially Gnome. Thats way users are in "rage" about broken/missing feature xy and "devs" feel like "why the hate me, I do so much work and trying my best and they just hate me?! *cry*". Full base-democracy will be not possible and opens the doors for trolls. But an *open* meritocracy will be fix a lot of problems. Works very well for the linux-kernel with our benelovent dictator smile

So users can see problems early and talk about with the devs. So devs can see problems early and decide how to fix problems.

@Developers:
Thanks for your work.

Last edited by hoschi (2012-07-26 09:20:58)

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#88 2012-07-26 10:21:22

zebulon
Member
Registered: 2008-10-20
Posts: 235

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

Potomac wrote:

do you know the procedure for setting a network with static ip adress ?

the wiki guide installation only talks about dhcp configuration,

I have expanded it. Please test and report about https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Be … up_network. Thanks!

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#89 2012-07-26 11:23:16

DSpider
Member
From: Romania
Registered: 2009-08-23
Posts: 2,273

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

andmars wrote:

has anyone else noticed that during the installation process the computer is running really at max? My PC is getting really loud and produces a lot of heat while I'm partitioning and pacstraping. This wasn't the case during the AIF process in the past. I know that CPU and GPU don't clock down during the process but I've never had my PC running at this maximum before while installing arch.

Check with top if there's anything running at 100% CPU:

$ top

"How to Succeed with Linux"

I have made a personal commitment not to reply in topics that start with a lowercase letter. Proper grammar and punctuation is a sign of respect, and if you do not show any, you will NOT receive any help (at least not from me).

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#90 2012-07-26 12:15:19

Awebb
Member
Registered: 2010-05-06
Posts: 4,311

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

Our dictator does two things: He posts on mailing lists and insults groups of people on google+. There is not much of a news site around the kernel.

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#91 2012-07-26 13:23:27

karol
Archivist
Registered: 2009-05-06
Posts: 25,428

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

hoschi wrote:

Did anyone know that offline-installation/core-repo will be removed?
Did anyone know that AIF will be removed?
Did anyone know that 32/64 get put into on image?
Did anyone know that a new install media is in production?

That is true.
The previous iso came pretty much out of the blue too. It was "in the works" for a couple of months and then literally in a matter of a day or two it was out.

For me the question is "do I have a problem with the changes somebody did". If I think they're reasonable, I don't mind not being informed in advance. Devs run the place anyway, but they tend to listen if you have something interesting to say.

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#92 2012-07-26 13:27:47

tomegun
Developer
From: France
Registered: 2010-05-28
Posts: 661

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

yaffare wrote:
zebulon wrote:

The thing that is of concern, in my opinion, is the fact the /etc/rc.conf file, which used to be the centralised configuration file for Arch, has been almost completely pruned.

I am also a little concerned about this.

Wouldnt the right solution be to write a script that parses our rc.conf and if an option like hostname exists, just overwrites /etc/hostname with that. such script should be executed every boot before systemd (or if possible as a kind of systemd-module before everything).

This means we should make systemd compatible with rc.conf and not change ourselves to be compatible with systemd.

systemd and initscripts are already compatible, this change was not necessary for moving to systemd. Please read arch-dev-public for details (or the more than hundred emails to arch-general for some flaming). systemd and initscripts read eachother's configuration files just fine. This change was simply one of defaults/documentation, so that both systems and all documentation can default to the same thing. The difference is truly trivial, and if you don't like it, you can stick with the old way.

PS:
Writing to /etc automatically at boot is a big no-no, as /etc will be mounted read-only during early boot, and it should be possible to not remount it read-write at all.

Last edited by tomegun (2012-07-26 13:29:37)

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#93 2012-07-26 14:15:08

zebulon
Member
Registered: 2008-10-20
Posts: 235

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

tomegun wrote:

systemd and initscripts are already compatible, this change was not necessary for moving to systemd. Please read arch-dev-public for details (or the more than hundred emails to arch-general for some flaming). systemd and initscripts read eachother's configuration files just fine. This change was simply one of defaults/documentation, so that both systems and all documentation can default to the same thing. The difference is truly trivial, and if you don't like it, you can stick with the old way.

Hi Tom,

First, thank you for all the work you did to make initscripts and systemd config-compatible. There was no intent to offend you or your work. Indeed, maintaining two config sets in parallel must be a very daunting task and you did it perfectly well. The fact rc.conf is not anymore a centralised config file is an important change for Arch, as it was one of its main features. Now Arch philosophy is also to stick to the upstream developers code, and that is a great advantage too, since we avoid many unnecessary patches. Maybe systemd developers should have centralised their settings in one file by themselves, instead of scattering them in several files with different syntax (e.g. /etc/hostname uses a single word, whereas /etc/locale.conf is a KEY=VALUE config file). As far as I understand from the man pages, some of these files come from Debian. Maybe they missed an opportunity here, or am I missing something?

I am currently updating the documentation for the installation procedure (in the Beginner's guide), deprecating the rc.conf settings and using the new systemd config files as the ones to edit to change system configuration. Could you please have a look if this is the correct "official" way? I wanted to discuss this on arch-dev-public, but the ML is read-only. Should we instead describe both ways to configure (systemd and rc.conf)? The problem is double: firstly, it makes the documentation difficult to write and to follow. Secondly, is it correct to assume that in fine systemd is going to replace initscripts, and that finally rc.conf will be entirely removed? Because in that case, it would be better to only describe the systemd config files and drop the alternate rc.conf way to do this (at least for the Beginner's guide).

What do you think?

Last edited by zebulon (2012-07-26 14:15:28)

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#94 2012-07-26 14:36:33

tomegun
Developer
From: France
Registered: 2010-05-28
Posts: 661

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

zebulon wrote:

There was no intent to offend you or your work.

None taken!

zebulon wrote:

The fact rc.conf is not anymore a centralised config file is an important change for Arch, as it was one of its main features.

As I argued on arch-dev-public, I don't agree with this. rc.conf was always about Arch-specific settings, and there was always several other configuration files that you need to edit (crypttab, fstab, locale.gen, hosts, just to name some). What changed was that over time, fewer and fewer configuration options were actually Arch-specific (or rather initscripts specific). Some because various upstreams either didn't need to be configured at all, or they got their own configuration files. Others because we managed to agree with other distros on a distro-agnostic and initd agnostic configuration format. I would therefore argue that the philosophy did not change, just the reality around us :-)

zebulon wrote:

Now Arch philosophy is also to stick to the upstream developers code, and that is a great advantage too, since we avoid many unnecessary patches. Maybe systemd developers should have centralised their settings in one file by themselves, instead of scattering them in several files with different syntax (e.g. /etc/hostname uses a single word, whereas /etc/locale.conf is a KEY=VALUE config file). As far as I understand from the man pages, some of these files come from Debian. Maybe they missed an opportunity here, or am I missing something?

Splitting unrelated things into separate configuration files seems like a good idea to me (if one gets garbled the others are unharmed, if you wonder about how to configure your locale you don't have to read through stuff about timezones/networking/..., etc.). As to the specific format, I don't have an opinion (I might have put some brainpower into thinking about this when it was up for discussion, but now that it has been finalised, I'm just grateful that we managed to get something that most distros can accept).

zebulon wrote:

I am currently updating the documentation for the installation procedure (in the Beginner's guide), deprecating the rc.conf settings and using the new systemd config files as the ones to edit to change system configuration. Could you please have a look if this is the correct "official" way? I wanted to discuss this on arch-dev-public, but the ML is read-only. Should we instead describe both ways to configure (systemd and rc.conf)? The problem is double: firstly, it makes the documentation difficult to write and to follow. Secondly, is it correct to assume that in fine systemd is going to replace initscripts, and that finally rc.conf will be entirely removed? Because in that case, it would be better to only describe the systemd config files and drop the alternate rc.conf way to do this (at least for the Beginner's guide).

I think it would be best if we only describe the "new" way. The only people who should be interested in the old way are the old-timers, and they don't need the beginners guide. The old format is described in the manpage for those who want it, but drawing more attention to it than necessary seems like it will just lead to confusion.

By the way, I'm still waiting for feedback on arch-dev-public in case someone don't like the new format of rc.conf, so things could in principle change. I guess I should soon close the discussion on that though (no suggestions came in, so I'll take that as a consensus).

Once I push the "final" version of initscripts to [testing], I'll have a look at the wiki/guides and try to help wherever I can. Thanks a lot for looking at that by the way, that is really appreciated! I keep being amazed at how awesome our wiki is, and how quickly it updates (I hardly ever have to edit anything related to my packages, as others always seem to beat me to it!).

Lastly: if you want to discuss this, arch-projects@archlinux.org might be the place to go (it does not have the huge noise that arch-general does). Just sign up first and prefix your subject with [initscripts] to get through the filters.

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#95 2012-07-26 14:50:41

zebulon
Member
Registered: 2008-10-20
Posts: 235

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

Great ! Thanks for your answer and advice. I will drop the "old way" from the Beginner's guide entirely. I suppose this will be a good preparation for the systemd transition anyway. We could always use rc.conf page as a reference to the legacy config system.

But if we carry on with the systemd config idea, what about dropping rc.conf entirely then, for new installations (but keeping backward compatibility with initscripts/rc.conf, as you have done so far)? Indeed, if I look at the latest git version, rc.conf is only reponsible for the DAEMONS array. There are some storage and wired network info in it (commented out by default), but if we follow your logic, it may be preferable to definitely split it: an /etc/daemons.conf for the daemons, a disk.conf and wired_network.conf for the rest! Do you think this is reasonable?

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#96 2012-07-26 14:54:07

tomegun
Developer
From: France
Registered: 2010-05-28
Posts: 661

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

zebulon wrote:

But if we carry on with the systemd config idea, what about dropping rc.conf entirely then, for new installations (but keeping backward compatibility with initscripts/rc.conf, as you have done so far)? Indeed, if I look at the latest git version, rc.conf is only reponsible for the DAEMONS array. There are some storage and wired network info in it (commented out by default), but if we follow your logic, it may be preferable to definitely split it: an /etc/daemons.conf for the daemons, a disk.conf and wired_network.conf for the rest! Do you think this is reasonable?

I don't think it would gain us anything. I think rc.conf should remain as it always was: the place for arch or initscripts specific stuff. In particular DAEMONS definitely belongs in rc.conf. After all, it configures which daemons in /etc/rc.d to start :-)

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#97 2012-07-26 14:59:53

zebulon
Member
Registered: 2008-10-20
Posts: 235

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

tomegun wrote:

I don't think it would gain us anything. I think rc.conf should remain as it always was: the place for arch or initscripts specific stuff. In particular DAEMONS definitely belongs in rc.conf. After all, it configures which daemons in /etc/rc.d to start :-)

I understand. Sorry for my ignorance, but does systemd uses the DAEMONS array in rc.conf too? I understand the units and symlinks in /etc/systemd/system, but is there a relationship between rc.conf and systemd? Or is rc.conf only used by initscripts?

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#98 2012-07-26 15:14:29

tomegun
Developer
From: France
Registered: 2010-05-28
Posts: 661

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

zebulon wrote:
tomegun wrote:

I don't think it would gain us anything. I think rc.conf should remain as it always was: the place for arch or initscripts specific stuff. In particular DAEMONS definitely belongs in rc.conf. After all, it configures which daemons in /etc/rc.d to start :-)

I understand. Sorry for my ignorance, but does systemd uses the DAEMONS array in rc.conf too? I understand the units and symlinks in /etc/systemd/system, but is there a relationship between rc.conf and systemd? Or is rc.conf only used by initscripts?

rc.conf is only used by initscripts. However, if you install initscripts-systemd (which I guess I'll eventually merge with initscripts), then systemd will read and use DAEMONS as well.

(systemd also does have support (at least for now) for reading the other variables in rc.conf, but that is just a transitional measure which will go away).

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#99 2012-07-26 15:17:29

zebulon
Member
Registered: 2008-10-20
Posts: 235

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

tomegun wrote:
zebulon wrote:
tomegun wrote:

I don't think it would gain us anything. I think rc.conf should remain as it always was: the place for arch or initscripts specific stuff. In particular DAEMONS definitely belongs in rc.conf. After all, it configures which daemons in /etc/rc.d to start :-)

I understand. Sorry for my ignorance, but does systemd uses the DAEMONS array in rc.conf too? I understand the units and symlinks in /etc/systemd/system, but is there a relationship between rc.conf and systemd? Or is rc.conf only used by initscripts?

rc.conf is only used by initscripts. However, if you install initscripts-systemd (which I guess I'll eventually merge with initscripts), then systemd will read and use DAEMONS as well.

(systemd also does have support (at least for now) for reading the other variables in rc.conf, but that is just a transitional measure which will go away).

OK, that is very clear, many thanks.

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#100 2012-07-28 00:58:10

cmlr
Member
From: Rochester, NY, USA
Registered: 2007-04-18
Posts: 96

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

I think the new install media are much better than the old.  The instructions are easy to follow, and you learn exactly what's going on with your system.  Very much in line with the Arch Linux Philososphy.

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