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#101 2012-07-26 15:11:50

kalle97
Member
Registered: 2012-07-18
Posts: 80

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

I will not give up my freedom and right. Those freedoms are importent. The whole GNU userland and partly the Linux kernel was created for that purpose.

But let's keep to the topic.

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#102 2012-07-26 15:20:29

karol
Archivist
Registered: 2009-05-06
Posts: 25,432

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

kalle97 wrote:

I will not give up my freedom and right.

Right? What right?

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#103 2012-07-26 15:31:27

kalle97
Member
Registered: 2012-07-18
Posts: 80

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

My english ain't the best, I might have chose wrong word.

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#104 2012-07-26 15:37:38

karol
Archivist
Registered: 2009-05-06
Posts: 25,432

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

kalle97 wrote:

My english ain't the best, I might have chose wrong word.

Ah, OK :-)

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#105 2012-07-26 16:14:44

derhamster
Member
Registered: 2012-07-08
Posts: 86

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

karol wrote:
WorMzy wrote:

I assume because Microsoft's next OS has made Mr. Newell consider Linux as a viable platform for Steam.

Link to the story.

Good point WorMzy, I didn't consider the controversy about Windows 8.
Here a more complete version of the interview: http://venturebeat.com/2012/07/25/valve … ell-talks/

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#106 2012-07-26 17:03:26

Zancarius
Member
From: NM, USA
Registered: 2012-05-06
Posts: 207

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

derhamster wrote:

Good point WorMzy, I didn't consider the controversy about Windows 8.
Here a more complete version of the interview: http://venturebeat.com/2012/07/25/valve … ell-talks/

Thanks for sharing that! The full version of the interview is actually far more interesting than the cherry-picked blurbs I've come across. It certainly presents a better picture of why he said Windows 8 is a catastrophe.


He who has no .plan has small finger.
~Confucius on UNIX.

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#107 2012-07-26 17:54:12

karol
Archivist
Registered: 2009-05-06
Posts: 25,432

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

Xbox LIVE + Microsoft Store can take out a chunk of Valve's business.

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#108 2012-07-26 19:38:19

ConnorBehan
Trusted User (TU)
From: Long Island NY
Registered: 2007-07-05
Posts: 1,356
Website

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

kalle97 wrote:

I will not give up my freedom and right. Those freedoms are importent. The whole GNU userland and partly the Linux kernel was created for that purpose.

Installing Steam is not *giving up* a freedom. It doesn't prevent you from downloading the source code to a program that used to be free. All the freedom you had before is still there. It's just that non-free software is unwelcome because it doesn't give *additional* freedom.

So you're saying it feels dirty to use proprietary software. I agree, which is why I will not benefit directly from the porting of Steam to Linux. However, I am happy for others that the decision was made.


6EA3 F3F3 B908 2632 A9CB E931 D53A 0445 B47A 0DAB
Great things come in tar.xz packages.

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#109 2012-07-26 21:23:13

Zancarius
Member
From: NM, USA
Registered: 2012-05-06
Posts: 207

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

karol wrote:

Xbox LIVE + Microsoft Store can take out a chunk of Valve's business.

This is kind of depressing, because it's probably the actual motivation for pushing Linux support. Although the Linux market isn't at all large enough for this to fully explain the move.


He who has no .plan has small finger.
~Confucius on UNIX.

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#110 2012-07-26 23:02:49

boast
Member
Registered: 2010-09-28
Posts: 219

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

When I see these OSS only people (and everything else is evil), I always think of other extremists: PETA members, vegans, fundamentalists, etc...


Asus M4A785TD-V ;; Phenom II X4 @ 3.9GHz ;; Ripjaws 12GB DDR3-1600 ;; 128GB Samsung 830 ;; MSI GTX460 v2 w/ blob ;; Arch Linux + KDE 4.x

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#111 2012-07-26 23:17:04

Gusar
Member
Registered: 2009-08-25
Posts: 3,472

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

boast wrote:

When I see these OSS only people (and everything else is evil), I always think of other extremists: PETA members, vegans, fundamentalists, etc...

It does have the same feel to it, doesn't it? I wonder if any of these OSS-only people are using wireless...

Last edited by Gusar (2012-07-26 23:24:12)

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#112 2012-07-27 00:56:42

ConnorBehan
Trusted User (TU)
From: Long Island NY
Registered: 2007-07-05
Posts: 1,356
Website

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

Wireless what? Are you referring to the fact that 802.11 is restrictively licensed and not allowed to go over 100mW and 20dBi? The former problem can be solved by patching an open source driver. The latter can be solved by finding an after-market antenna that was once used by military and such. Though admittedly I haven't done this.


6EA3 F3F3 B908 2632 A9CB E931 D53A 0445 B47A 0DAB
Great things come in tar.xz packages.

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#113 2012-07-27 01:29:43

ewaller
Administrator
From: Pasadena, CA
Registered: 2009-07-13
Posts: 13,431

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

ConnorBehan wrote:

Are you referring to the fact that 802.11 is restrictively licensed and not allowed to go over 100mW and 20dBi? The former problem can be solved by patching an open source driver. .

Please, don't do that.  There really are very good reasons for it having to do with noise floors, out of band spurs, pulling receiver's AGC so they cannot find or see legal channels that are on a different frequency, and many other technical reasons.

It is also a major argument by closed source advocates as to why drivers for software controlled radios must be kept proprietary and subject to mandatory radiated emissions testing.  Don't add fuel to that fire.

It is also illegal and is runs afoul of our policy

I appreciate it.

Last edited by ewaller (2012-07-27 01:30:11)


Nothing is too wonderful to be true, if it be consistent with the laws of nature -- Michael Faraday
You assume people are rational and influenced by evidence.  You must not work with the public much. -- Trilby
----
How to Ask Questions the Smart Way

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#114 2012-07-27 03:03:01

Anthony Bentley
Member
Registered: 2009-12-21
Posts: 76

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

ConnorBehan wrote:

So you're saying it feels dirty to use proprietary software. I agree, which is why I will not benefit directly from the porting of Steam to Linux.

Actually, you might—there has been talk that Valve is interested in improving open‐source graphics drivers.

boast wrote:

When I see these OSS only people (and everything else is evil), I always think of other extremists: PETA members, vegans, fundamentalists, etc...

Unlike some people, I don’t think it’s a sin to use closed‐source software. But I think it should be avoided whenever possible. Blobs are:

  • Not portable to other architectures (ARM, etc)

  • Unverified, may have security holes that the vendor is keeping secret or just unaware of

  • Only available from a single vendor—other users can’t provide bugfixes

Valve seems to be seeing the advantages of open drivers, which is a plus. Maybe it will lead them to open‐source other software too. As for myself, I avoid closed‐source software (games are sometimes an exception, especially when there are open‐source emulators for them), and I never buy hardware from companies like Nvidia, who are unwilling to provide even documentation or specs for their cards.

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#115 2012-07-27 09:52:05

Gusar
Member
Registered: 2009-08-25
Posts: 3,472

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

ConnorBehan wrote:

Wireless what? Are you referring to the fact that 802.11 is restrictively licensed and not allowed to go over 100mW and 20dBi?

No, I'm referring to the fact that pretty much all wireless devices require closed-source firmware to function. In the case of Intel, this firmware is sometimes larger than the kernel module itself.

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#116 2012-07-27 11:06:16

omer666
Member
Registered: 2011-01-26
Posts: 70

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

If there was no open source philosophy, there would be no Linux, don't forget that. It has nothing to do with activism, it's a thought, an idea. And that thought could very possibly improve our use of computers on an everyday basis; but I'd bet every single user in here is very likely to be aware of that. I don't remember seeing any manifestation against proprietary software, as far as I know.

Those examples given by boast are stereotypes, which are totally out of focus here, to the extent that I find his assessment almost ridiculous (I must precise however that PETA and the likes don't have the same connotation here in France; it's commonly accepted that there is some kind of American folklore to it).

Being a narrow-minded OSS guy is ridiculous as well, I've got to admit. But please don't start a flame war just for a remark on open sourcing, because I think that it's relevant.

Last edited by omer666 (2012-07-27 11:07:51)

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#117 2012-07-27 11:22:17

Awebb
Member
Registered: 2010-05-06
Posts: 4,537

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

karol wrote:
kalle97 wrote:

I will not give up my freedom and right.

Right? What right?

I was, at some point, tempted to reply with: "Freedom? What freedom?"

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#118 2012-07-27 11:32:58

karol
Archivist
Registered: 2009-05-06
Posts: 25,432

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

Awebb wrote:
karol wrote:
kalle97 wrote:

I will not give up my freedom and right.

Right? What right?

I was, at some point, tempted to reply with: "Freedom? What freedom?"

The "pick your poison" type of freedom ;P
"Sir, would you like to be hanged, decapitated or shot?"


I don't think Steam on Linux will make things worse as I doubt people will drop Windows and flock to Linux overnight - if ever.
Better graphics drivers would be welcome.

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#119 2012-07-27 13:38:37

jakobcreutzfeldt
Member
Registered: 2011-05-12
Posts: 1,033

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

karol wrote:

I don't think Steam on Linux will make things worse as I doubt people will drop Windows and flock to Linux overnight - if ever.
Better graphics drivers would be welcome.

I suppose they're banking on the idea that there are people who only use Windows for gaming and that if those users can have the same performance in Linux for free, then they'd do that. Whether or not that's a fair asessment is open for intepretation.

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#120 2012-07-27 15:44:13

blackout23
Member
Registered: 2011-11-16
Posts: 780

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

My Windows Machine is basically just a more sophisticated console with proper controllers.

Btw: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=n … px=MTE0Njc

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#121 2012-07-27 16:56:25

alphaniner
Member
From: Ancapistan
Registered: 2010-07-12
Posts: 2,754

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

jakobcreutzfeldt wrote:

I suppose they're banking on the idea that there are people who only use Windows for gaming and that if those users can have the same performance in Linux for free, then they'd do that. Whether or not that's a fair asessment is open for intepretation.

One possible problem is that a lot of people (I suspect) buy machines with Windows pre-installed and therefore don't 'see' the cost of the OS or don't understand that it's not 'built in to the computer' or some such.

And even among those who do understand... suffice it to say, Linux is used heavily where I work but few of my colleagues have it installed at home.


But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist.
-Lysander Spooner

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#122 2012-07-27 19:24:42

Zancarius
Member
From: NM, USA
Registered: 2012-05-06
Posts: 207

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

I agree with this train of thought--there's too many of you making excellent points for me to quote!

The average user is just going to use whatever was preinstalled. On the other hand, this would bring us up in feature parity with Windows as seen through the eyes of the general public.

But, as was pointed out earlier, this is probably just going to primarily help those of us who save our Windows install strictly for games. Although, this could be interesting to watch play out in the casual game market for lower powered devices like netbooks running some flavor of Linux, if it catches on. I admit that I'm still puzzled why Valve would be spending so much money on pushing their platform to Linux unless it does have something to do with 1) fear of the Windows store, 2) untapped market share, no matter how small (ties in with #1), and 3) the potential for supporting future Linux-based devices. Their blog seems interested in peddling the idea that they're doing this out of the kindness of their hearts for keeping the Linux ecosystem healthy, but that's just a convenient side-effect.

I don't really see there being that many of us who use Windows solely for games to make this worthwhile (or maybe we're more numerous than I thought?). There has to be some motive for profit. What is it?


He who has no .plan has small finger.
~Confucius on UNIX.

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#123 2012-07-27 19:36:06

hesse
Member
Registered: 2011-12-08
Posts: 88

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

What about Half-Life³ folks??

Last edited by hesse (2012-07-27 19:39:31)

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#124 2012-07-27 20:54:03

karol
Archivist
Registered: 2009-05-06
Posts: 25,432

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

Zancarius wrote:

I don't really see there being that many of us who use Windows solely for games

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=19256
Games, tax returns and a few other uses.

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#125 2012-07-27 20:56:48

boast
Member
Registered: 2010-09-28
Posts: 219

Re: Looking forward to having Steam on Linux? Read this.

alphaniner wrote:
jakobcreutzfeldt wrote:

I suppose they're banking on the idea that there are people who only use Windows for gaming and that if those users can have the same performance in Linux for free, then they'd do that. Whether or not that's a fair asessment is open for intepretation.

One possible problem is that a lot of people (I suspect) buy machines with Windows pre-installed and therefore don't 'see' the cost of the OS or don't understand that it's not 'built in to the computer' or some such.

And even among those who do understand... suffice it to say, Linux is used heavily where I work but few of my colleagues have it installed at home.

But most gamers build their own rigs, and see the cost of windows. And with secureboot stuff that will make it harder to pirate windows (as I understood it), they might be more willing to get linux to try it out.

Last edited by boast (2012-07-27 20:57:12)


Asus M4A785TD-V ;; Phenom II X4 @ 3.9GHz ;; Ripjaws 12GB DDR3-1600 ;; 128GB Samsung 830 ;; MSI GTX460 v2 w/ blob ;; Arch Linux + KDE 4.x

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