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#76 2012-08-03 23:41:10

ANOKNUSA
Member
Registered: 2010-10-22
Posts: 2,141

Re: What's with all the --force-ing?

karol wrote:
blackout23 wrote:

Why have a --force flag in pacman in the first place? Are there situations where it is really the only option?.

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php … 9#p1137129

This sort of thing makes me smile, 'cuz I use humor to deal with life's bullshit.  It's just funny that we can't have a rational discussion about human nature without first accepting that so many humans aren't rational.

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#77 2012-08-04 15:52:16

wandernauta
Member
Registered: 2012-05-26
Posts: 3
Website

Re: What's with all the --force-ing?

I'm not at all well-informed about how pacman et al work, but could package updates perhaps come with notes that are displayed before answering to pacman's prompt? Like the "Optional dependency" messages are displayed during updating?

mybox# pacman -Su
resolving dependencies...

(gobblegobble)

Important note: Some packages that are scheduled for updating may need manual intervention.
- glibc: Regular upgrade will fail. Upgrade other packages first. Don't use --force.
Make sure you have read (and understood) relevant announcements before proceding.

Proceed? [Y/n]

Again, I don't know pacman well enough to know whether this is possible or not, but it seems plausible.

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#78 2012-08-04 16:26:55

mhertz
Member
From: Denmark
Registered: 2010-06-19
Posts: 664

Re: What's with all the --force-ing?

Of course they could, if the devs wanted that...

We're supposed to monitor the news items ourselves, and check forum/mailing-list if having issues... If the devs wants, then they can also add the messages to the install-routine, but that's up to them...

Specifically stating to not use --force in a news item/install-message, really rubbs me the wrong way, as that's supposed to be self-evident! Besides also being mentioned clearly in the man!

If a news item specifically mentions to use force then that's fine, or if you know that force in this specific situation is harmless and runs it, then that's also fine, but saying that we shouldn't use it in this or that situation, is imho like saying e.g. to dont run 'sudo rm -rf /' or something!

This is arch - It's supposed to be a distro for the competent...

Last edited by mhertz (2012-08-04 16:33:13)

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#79 2012-08-04 16:28:22

fsckd
Forum Moderator
Registered: 2009-06-15
Posts: 3,512

Re: What's with all the --force-ing?


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#80 2012-08-04 16:37:44

Trilby
Forum Moderator
From: Massachusetts, USA
Registered: 2011-11-29
Posts: 13,483
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Re: What's with all the --force-ing?

If an error message from pacman does not cause the user to check the news, why would this other prompt do so?

I certainly did not see the news until after I first tried to run pacman -Syu.  But when I got the conflicting files error message my first thought was "Hmm, I should check the news/forum" ... and when I did I quickly found the information I needed.


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#81 2012-08-04 17:31:08

ANOKNUSA
Member
Registered: 2010-10-22
Posts: 2,141

Re: What's with all the --force-ing?

^^ Agreed. I'm not a dev, but I suspect those who are won't ever take the idea seriously.  If you see that an unfamiliar  package--or a major one, like the kernel or filesystem package--from the [core] repository needs updating, that's your cue to check the news.  It's easier to check the news and find out what needs doing, then to check into the forums several times in a row just to find yourself ridiculed for your own incompetence.  I know that seems like a harsh outlook, but Arch is meant for those who are responsible and self-motivated, not those who need to be told how to take care of basic tasks regularly.

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#82 2012-08-04 17:35:28

wandernauta
Member
Registered: 2012-05-26
Posts: 3
Website

Re: What's with all the --force-ing?

I personally think the problem is not with users being lazy or hapless or stupid (I know I'm not), but with pacman's error messages. From the wording of the error message, it didn't really occur to me that the conflict was expected behaviour. It looked like a (packager or pacman) bug, i.e. a cue to check the IRC channel or the bug tracker, not the announcements.

I'll look into pacmatic though, thanks @fsckd smile

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#83 2012-08-04 18:08:38

mhertz
Member
From: Denmark
Registered: 2010-06-19
Posts: 664

Re: What's with all the --force-ing?

People running --force without a news item stating so, or without knowing exactly that its OK in that specific situation are stupid/lazy, period!

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#84 2012-08-04 18:55:18

ANOKNUSA
Member
Registered: 2010-10-22
Posts: 2,141

Re: What's with all the --force-ing?

wandernauta wrote:

I personally think the problem is not with users being lazy or hapless or stupid (I know I'm not), but with pacman's error messages. From the wording of the error message, it didn't really occur to me that the conflict was expected behaviour. It looked like a (packager or pacman) bug, i.e. a cue to check the IRC channel or the bug tracker, not the announcements.

I'll look into pacmatic though, thanks @fsckd smile

I'm not sure you mean by this.  You get an error message, which is absolutely expected when something goes wrong.  From that point, you essentially have four choices:

1) Check the news page.
2) Use a search engine or the wiki to learn more about the error message.
3) Ask in the forums, at which point you'll be directed to do 1) and 2).
4) Use --force, fsck your system up and then come whining to those of us competent enough to think things through.

This thread exists because a recent wave of noobs/dabblers/Archbangers seem to think 4) is the default here.  It's the "--force" option; in most cases, it's difference between fixing a television versus hitting it in the hopes that doing so will fix it spontaneously, then complaining to someone else when you put your fist through the screen.

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#85 2012-08-05 02:35:55

ewaller
Administrator
From: Pasadena, CA
Registered: 2009-07-13
Posts: 12,390

Re: What's with all the --force-ing?

Okay, I think this thread has run its course.  I thought about moving it to TGN, but I shall leave it here as a cautionary tale...

Closing.


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