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#1 2012-07-07 00:53:43

cfr
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From: Cymru
Registered: 2011-11-27
Posts: 6,100

stutters on reboot? + on lid open following update...

I just rebooted my machine. I'm not sure whether the machine had shut down and was rebooting or had almost shutdown but it suddenly started making small squeaks/clicks, brief whirrings and flashing the "thinkpad" light. Although I don't know, it looked almost as if it was repeatedly trying to start (or stop but probably start). This was all rather alarming. Not knowing what else to do, I held the power button and the machine quieted down.

I then restarted. No problem. Not quite believing this, I then rebooted immediately. Again, no problem.

Is this the first sign of trouble, a random blip or the curse of some ancient deity? I've not had any problems like this before. The only hardware issues I've had were the keyboard (which has been replaced) and a RAM module which went bad (also replaced).

[Squeaks/clicks are not the hard drive - they are coming from the "think" light area which is diagonally opposite the hard drive i.e. as far from the hard drive as possible in such a small space.]

Last edited by cfr (2012-08-28 23:36:08)


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#2 2012-07-07 15:44:43

MadTux
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Re: stutters on reboot? + on lid open following update...

On my ThinkPads, below the ThinkPad button is the CPU and the CPU fan. You can verify this by opening the case and I would suggest to do that. When the case is open, carefully check the fan and whether it has collected dust or whether something is blocking it. If you are unable to find anything, maybe the CPU got hot and the fan ran on its maximum speed.

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#3 2012-07-08 02:21:31

cfr
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From: Cymru
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Re: stutters on reboot? + on lid open following update...

Thanks for replying. The noise seemed to be coming from beneath the ThinkPad light, though, rather than the button. (My button is also above the fan.) The light is roughly above the RAM modules, if I remember right. I'm not sure what's under them.

Actually, scratch that. I think I'm failing to switch the layout around in my head. So I think the light is roughly above the wireless module, with the hard drive further back and the button above that. The fan is on the opposite side behind the RAM.

(I might have to have a look just to remember where things are. But it definitely isn't near the power button or the fan or the hard drive.)


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#4 2012-07-08 05:48:22

ANOKNUSA
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Re: stutters on reboot? + on lid open following update...

Think you could share what model you have?  I've got a T520, and can't say what might be making such noises in the same position on my model (there isn't even a "Thinkpad light" on this one).  The only pieces of hardware under that button on this machine are a little bit of the mobo and some speaker wires*.  And just out of curiosity, have you checked out Thinkwiki?

* If you have an older machine, this might be it (maybe--I don't know if Thinkpads have a history of this or not).

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#5 2012-07-08 13:34:54

MadTux
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Re: stutters on reboot? + on lid open following update...

If his signature is correct and referring to the machine in question, it is a ThinkPad X121e, so a rather new model. Referring to ThinkWiki, there seem to be a certain different kind of noises that can come from a ThinkPad. A rather long list can be found here:

http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Problem_w … tch_noises

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#6 2012-07-08 16:07:22

cfr
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Re: stutters on reboot? + on lid open following update...

Yes, my signature is correct. It's the X121e with i3-2367M CPU and a few upgrades such as Centrino--N 1000 wireless and a US keyboard. (I'm not sure the latter is really an "upgrade" though Lenovo seem to think so. More a "variation"?) The ThinkPad light on the X121e is above what I believe is the SD card reader. (I've never used the reader as I don't have a card to test in it.)

The noises discussed on the wiki seem to be concerned with ongoing issues whereas this was (so far) a one-off occurrence - that is, it has never happened before and didn't happen when I rebooted again immediately afterwards. However, although ThinkWiki is great, it still has limited information about this model - possibly because it is still fairly new; possibly because it is not, as I understand it, available in the US which likely reduces the number of users.


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#7 2012-07-11 10:13:25

roadrunner_gs
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Re: stutters on reboot? + on lid open following update...

Hello cfr.
I am plagued by the exact same problem albeit using Scientific Linux 6.2 for some weeks now. My Lenovo X121e with Intel Core i3-2367M and Intel Centrino Wireless-N 1000 will shutdown unexpected every now and then with nothing showing up in /var/log/messages. Everytime this happens the hdd-temperature is above 42 °C. Direct after the laptop's unexpected shutdown a new boot is not possible: The thinklight flashes repeatedly and some noises that sound like the hdd is not able to spin up occur. After around 4 minutes it comes up again without problems. But sometimes later it would be shut of out of the blue while working again with the same problem while trying to reboot the laptop. I yesterday put out the Ericsson F5521GW WWAN card since i happened to remember that the problem first surfaced after i have bought that card aftermarket - it is a FRU-brandend specifically for the X121e, don't worry - and there where no other unexpected shutdowns since then even while running PrimeGrid with two processes.

Do you also have built in a WWAN-module as of late?

I will watch my laptop closely now and if the problem is not recurring within one week i will try with Fedora Live-USB-stick and the built in WWAN-module if there is the same problem.
Either way i may need to return the WWAN-module to or swap it at my store.

Last edited by roadrunner_gs (2012-07-11 10:15:45)

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#8 2012-07-11 21:42:10

cfr
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Re: stutters on reboot? + on lid open following update...

Thanks for responding but I don't think you are experiencing the same problem. (And I don't have WWAN at all - built in or otherwise.) My laptop is not shutting down unexpectedly and I had no trouble rebooting (after switching off at the power switch). I'm pretty sure that mine is not linked to any particular temperature; the hard drive was not making any noises. I'm not quite sure I follow what you say about rebooting: do you mean the problem occurs when simply rebooting sometimes? Or that it occurs when you try to reboot following the shutdown?

The think light flashing sounds similar - not sure about the noises. But, as I say, it can't be the WWAN module in my case as I don't have one.

Your laptop shouldn't be shutting down at 42C but I guess you know that. It sounds almost as though it is set with too low a temperature marked as dangerous. Here, for example, is my output from lm-sensors:

$ sensors
coretemp-isa-0000
Adapter: ISA adapter
Physical id 0:  +48.0 C  (high = +86.0 C, crit = +100.0 C)
Core 0:         +47.0 C  (high = +86.0 C, crit = +100.0 C)
Core 1:         +48.0 C  (high = +86.0 C, crit = +100.0 C)

acpitz-virtual-0
Adapter: Virtual device
temp1:        +45.0 C  (crit = +100.0 C)

thinkpad-isa-0000
Adapter: ISA adapter
fan1:         565 RPM
temp1:        +45.0 C  
temp2:         +0.0 C  
temp3:        +45.0 C  
temp4:         +0.0 C  
temp5:         +0.0 C  
temp6:         +0.0 C  
temp7:        +25.0 C  
temp8:         +0.0 C 

As you can see, my temps are mostly over 42 and my machine is relatively idle right now. But the high/critical temperatures are considerably higher and I assume that's around the point you'd expect automatic shutdown to protect you.


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#9 2012-07-11 23:36:14

roadrunner_gs
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Re: stutters on reboot? + on lid open following update...

The 42 °C where from the hdd, the CPU is safe at 73-75 °C running two PrimeGrid-workunits, one for each physical cores.
And yes it shut off unexpectedly and when trying to restart the laptop the thinklight was flashing and from the vicinity sounds of a harddrive - at least it sounded like one - trying to spin up but not abled to do so could be heard with clicking of heads loading/unloading or spindle-motor powering on and off again the disks. Like "whirl-click-whirl-click-whirl-click" the whole time with the laptop not showing any POST-Screen. Only 5-second press of power button was able to shut it off again. Restart was possible after some minutes - if two or five i hadn't stopped.
Haven't experienced this problem again up to now without the Ericsson F5521GW WWAN module.

Temperatures of hdd since yesterday 1600 UTC:

# gawk '{print $3,$4}' /root/sdatemp.out | sort | uniq
ST320LT007-9ZV142: 38
ST320LT007-9ZV142: 39
ST320LT007-9ZV142: 40
ST320LT007-9ZV142: 41
ST320LT007-9ZV142: 42

CPU-temp as of now

# sensors
acpitz-virtual-0
Adapter: Virtual device
temp1:       +73.0°C  (crit = +100.0°C)

# ./i7z
Cpu speed from cpuinfo 1396.00Mhz
cpuinfo might be wrong if cpufreq is enabled. To guess correctly try estimating via tsc
Linux's inbuilt cpu_khz code emulated now
True Frequency (without accounting Turbo) 1396 MHz
  CPU Multiplier 14x || Bus clock frequency (BCLK) 99.71 MHz

Socket [0] - [physical cores=2, logical cores=4, max online cores ever=2]
  TURBO DISABLED on 2 Cores, Hyper Threading ON
  True Frequency 1396.00 MHz (99.71 x [14])
  Max TURBO Multiplier (if Enabled) with 1/2/3/4 Cores is  14x/14x/14x/14x
  Current Frequency 1396.04 MHz [99.71 x 14.00] (Max of below)
        Core [core-id]  :Actual Freq (Mult.)	  C0%   Halt(C1)%  C3 %   C6 %   C7 %  Temp
        Core 1 [0]:	  1395.99 (14.00x)	21.2    78.8	   0	   0	   0    71
        Core 2 [2]:	  1396.04 (14.00x)	   2      98	   0	   0	   0    70

But it was only an observation that the laptop did never shutdown down if the hdd-temp was below 42°C but occasionally when it was 42°C or above.
While trying to figure out the root cause of the problem i stumbled acros a description of what seemed to sound like my problem so i wanted to post something in case someone else has identical symptoms.

If it is not shutting down i am pretty sure it is the WWAN causing this shutdowns, the symptom seems the same in your case and mine, yet the root cause is different.

There you are and thanks a lot for the very warm welcome.
I am off!

Last edited by roadrunner_gs (2012-07-12 06:01:19)

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#10 2012-07-12 05:07:01

ewaller
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Re: stutters on reboot? + on lid open following update...

roadrunner_gs:  Welcome to Archlinux.  When posting code, please follow our policy and use BBCode 'code' tags when posting program output.  It uses a monospaced font, puts the listing in a box, and uses scroll bars.  Your readers will appreciate it.  Feel free to edit your post.

Note that there is also a hand BBCode link at under each text box used for posting.
Thanks.


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#11 2012-07-12 21:44:39

cfr
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Registered: 2011-11-27
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Re: stutters on reboot? + on lid open following update...

... the symptom seems the same in your case and mine...

Just to clarify, I don't think the symptoms are the same. My laptop is NOT shutting down unexpectedly. The noises are not coming from the hard drive and do not involve clicks.

I appreciate your posting with something which seemed similar but since the symptoms are quite different, I think you would find it more useful to start a new thread so that the two sets of symptoms don't get confused by people reading this one. You are more likely to get useful input that way as your issue will be the first post in the thread and people will focus on that.


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#12 2012-07-26 22:53:20

cfr
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From: Cymru
Registered: 2011-11-27
Posts: 6,100

Re: stutters on reboot? + on lid open following update...

Hmm... This just happened to me again. Flashing ThinkPad light, whirring sounds as if trying to start, stuttering, nothing... Pressed power button to terminate thrashing.

This time, I opened the laptop up just to see if I could find anything. I found one loose screw on the opposite side of the laptop. That is, the noises and the light are on the right of the laptop and the loose screw was towards the left. I tightened that and checked the other visible screws. I also had a bit of a go at the fan and wiped a few bits of dust randomly moving them from one place to another, I suspect. [But the fan is nowhere near the noise: fan is back left, noise and light are front right. HD is back right.]

Laptop started up fine. I booted a quick rescue partition just to reboot and it rebooted fine. But it did that before...

Anything else I should check? What's annoying me a bit is that if something is going to go wrong during warranty, I need it to go reproducibly wrong so I can prove it and get it fixed! (Already had a new keyboard.)

Last edited by cfr (2012-07-26 22:54:35)


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#13 2012-08-14 10:36:15

sabsoub
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Registered: 2012-08-14
Posts: 6

Re: stutters on reboot? + on lid open following update...

I have exactly the same problem as roadrunner_gs, but I don't have a WWAN module. My x121e randomly crashes. There are no log entries. I am running ubuntu 12.04. I updated the Bios to version 1.16, which didn't solve the issue. Any suggestions?

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#14 2012-08-15 01:21:36

cfr
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Registered: 2011-11-27
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Re: stutters on reboot? + on lid open following update...

sabsoub wrote:

I have exactly the same problem as roadrunner_gs, but I don't have a WWAN module. My x121e randomly crashes. There are no log entries. I am running ubuntu 12.04. I updated the Bios to version 1.16, which didn't solve the issue. Any suggestions?

Try asking on the ubuntu forums?


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#15 2012-08-15 01:24:40

cfr
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From: Cymru
Registered: 2011-11-27
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Re: stutters on reboot? + on lid open following update...

This has now happened to me several times. I'd really like to know if it might be a hardware issue (seems that way) and, if so, how to diagnose and/or prove it so I can get it fixed under the warranty! Intermittent issues are such a pain...


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#16 2012-08-16 08:28:51

sabsoub
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Registered: 2012-08-14
Posts: 6

Re: stutters on reboot? + on lid open following update...

I tried other operating systems (Mint, Fedora)...but the same thing happens. Maybe I should try windows just to be sure ...
For the moment I think it's a hardware issue, but as you say cfr, telling the lenovo guys that your system is randomly shutting down is not great. Although, it seems that if I watch a video on an external screen, the shut down occurs within say 30min, whereas I can surf the web for hours without problems. Moreover, after this random shut down, I can not immediatly reboot. The harddrive makes this weird noise trying to spin up...maybe that's something to tell the lenovo guys.

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#17 2012-08-17 00:58:09

cfr
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From: Cymru
Registered: 2011-11-27
Posts: 6,100

Re: stutters on reboot? + on lid open following update...

I don't even have anything that dramatic - mine doesn't shut down (randomly or otherwise) and I can immediately reboot. Just the machine sometimes gets stuck rebooting...


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#18 2012-08-17 04:51:41

sabsoub
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Registered: 2012-08-14
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Re: stutters on reboot? + on lid open following update...

Ok but that rebooting issue is fixed with Bios 1.16, look here http://support.lenovo.com/en_US/downloa … D=DS019252

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#19 2012-08-17 23:13:24

cfr
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From: Cymru
Registered: 2011-11-27
Posts: 6,100

Re: stutters on reboot? + on lid open following update...

Thanks. I'm not sure it is the same issue (hard to tell from the description) but I hadn't even realised that a second bios update was available for this machine. I'll see if I can get somebody to make me a CD and borrow a USB drive. (I assume you need Windows to run the writing software on the iso - I seem to remember that being the case last time.)


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#20 2012-08-18 00:16:25

sabsoub
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Registered: 2012-08-14
Posts: 6

Re: stutters on reboot? + on lid open following update...

Yeah, maybe the update solves your problem. You can do it via USB http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/BIOS_Upgr … r_Linux.29 with grub4dos. Worked perfectly for me. Anyhow, I called the lenovo guys and we try to get that fixed somehow...

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#21 2012-08-18 01:09:03

cfr
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From: Cymru
Registered: 2011-11-27
Posts: 6,100

Re: stutters on reboot? + on lid open following update...

I know there are work arounds. Just I figure if I can do it Lenovo's way and it trashes my system, I can complain to them more vehemently! Last time, the IT department lent me a USB CD for half an hour - I'm sure they will again as they were fine before once they realised I only wanted it for an hour or two rather than weeks or months. (Don't know what they thought I needed to do with it for weeks at a time but still.) So I'll try that first. If not, it is good to know the usb method worked fine for you as that gives me a bit more confidence in it. Bios updates give me the creeps.

Do PCs usually have this many firmware updates? I used Macs for about 10 years and I think I only updated firmware once. This is the second from Lenovo for this machine since November!

Last edited by cfr (2012-08-18 01:09:50)


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#22 2012-08-18 12:38:59

sabsoub
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Registered: 2012-08-14
Posts: 6

Re: stutters on reboot? + on lid open following update...

Alright, if you do it the lenovo way... Well me too, I am not used to update the Bios of my computers, but it seems that the firmware of the x121e did not go through extensive testing....

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#23 2012-08-27 20:48:13

cfr
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From: Cymru
Registered: 2011-11-27
Posts: 6,100

Re: stutters on reboot? + on lid open following update...

I was really hopeful that this update had solved my issue. First few reboots went fine. Then I just rebooted and back to the same stuttering. So whatever magic was in the bios update doesn't seem to have done the trick here...

What's the best approach to take with an intermittent issue like this? For example, what's the best way to document it or whatever with Lenovo? (Is it likely to be a hardware issue? That's my current suspicion but it might just be that's what I'm _worried_ about sad.)


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#24 2012-08-28 16:40:23

68flag
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Registered: 2012-08-23
Posts: 4

Re: stutters on reboot? + on lid open following update...

What happens when you try running "sudo reboot -f" in terminal?
Does the studdering happen when you shut it down or hibernate it? Or only occasionally when you reboot it?

If you have any blank CDs lying around or if you still have that USB drive download memtest86, let it run for a little while and see if it runs into any errors.

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#25 2012-08-28 23:33:31

cfr
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From: Cymru
Registered: 2011-11-27
Posts: 6,100

Re: stutters on reboot? + on lid open following update...

An hour ago, I would have said: occasionally on reboot; never on shut down or hibernate. Haven't tried sudo reboot -f. (Only just read this suggestion.)

Not sure what I've done with the usb key - can always make another. I doubt blank CDs will do me much good - I don't have an optical drive.

Anyway, within the last hour, I ran pacman -Syu. I then rebooted. Stuttering. Forced off. Restart.

Only now if put the laptop to sleep by closing the lid, I get the stuttering and I'm forced to do a hard reset when I reopen the lid.

I repeated this with:
- the new kernel (3.5.3-1) and systemd
- the LTS kernel and systemd
- the new kernel and initscripts

I just booted with the new kernel and systemd and it seems I can resume from sleep OK. That is, I can put the laptop to sleep using the sleep button and wake it up using the wake button. (I thought this was having no effect but it worked second time - and no stuttering.)

I changed the behaviour of acpid to get sleep to work on lid close. This is the extract from handler.sh:

    button/lid)
        case "$3" in
            close)
                logger 'LID closed'
                echo -n mem >/sys/power/state
                ;;
            open)
                logger 'LID opened'
                ;;
            *)
                logger "ACPI action undefined: $3"
                ;;
    esac
    ;;

The thing is, I tested this with the old kernel, systemd etc. and before the update it was working fine. That is, before the change, closing the lid had no effect. After the change, closing the lid got me sleep and opening it let me resume. Even now, the problem is really on lid open rather than lid close.

Something peculiar is going on. I was thinking this was hardware but now I'm not so sure. Why should it matter hardware-wise *how* I put it to sleep?

I'm wondering slightly about my hdd although it seems a weird sort of symptom. Some output from smartctl:

Vendor Specific SMART Attributes with Thresholds:
ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME          FLAG     VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE      UPDATED  WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
  1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate     0x000f   118   099   034    Pre-fail  Always       -       179277496
  3 Spin_Up_Time            0x0003   098   098   000    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
  4 Start_Stop_Count        0x0032   096   096   020    Old_age   Always       -       4958
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   100   100   036    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
  7 Seek_Error_Rate         0x000f   075   060   030    Pre-fail  Always       -       32022183
  9 Power_On_Hours          0x0032   097   097   000    Old_age   Always       -       3298 (112 243 0)
 10 Spin_Retry_Count        0x0013   100   100   097    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
 12 Power_Cycle_Count       0x0032   099   099   020    Old_age   Always       -       1042
184 End-to-End_Error        0x0032   100   100   099    Old_age   Always       -       0
187 Reported_Uncorrect      0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
188 Command_Timeout         0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
189 High_Fly_Writes         0x003a   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
190 Airflow_Temperature_Cel 0x0022   063   051   045    Old_age   Always       -       37 (Min/Max 29/37)
191 G-Sense_Error_Rate      0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       74
192 Power-Off_Retract_Count 0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       34
193 Load_Cycle_Count        0x0032   094   094   000    Old_age   Always       -       13512
194 Temperature_Celsius     0x0022   037   049   000    Old_age   Always       -       37 (0 13 0 0 0)
195 Hardware_ECC_Recovered  0x001a   052   031   000    Old_age   Always       -       179277496
196 Reallocated_Event_Count 0x000f   097   097   030    Pre-fail  Always       -       3135 (40533 0)
197 Current_Pending_Sector  0x0012   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
198 Offline_Uncorrectable   0x0010   100   100   000    Old_age   Offline      -       0
199 UDMA_CRC_Error_Count    0x003e   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
250 Read_Error_Retry_Rate   0x0000   100   001   000    Old_age   Offline      -       1561
251 Unknown_Attribute       0x0000   100   001   000    Old_age   Offline      -       31
252 Unknown_Attribute       0x0000   100   001   000    Old_age   Offline      -       0
254 Free_Fall_Sensor        0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0

There are no errors logged and all the most recent 21 tests in the log completed without errors (mostly short offline and conveyance offline with some extended offline). What's Hardware_ECC_Recovered?

I think memtest was on the old Arch install media and I seem not to have overwritten it so maybe I'll try letting that run for a bit later.

I've found nothing googling for this issue. But then, I'm not sure how to describe it - what's the technical term for "sort of stuttering"?!


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