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#176 2012-09-09 19:15:18

snovik
Member
Registered: 2012-05-06
Posts: 97

Re: Archlinux is moving to systemd

@Dieter@be

vboxdrv as a daemon?

otherwise posting such rc.conf does not seem to be enough. the problems is not here (or you can try killing all your daemons and see if it boots)

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#177 2012-09-09 20:28:26

Dieter@be
Forum Fellow
From: Belgium
Registered: 2006-11-05
Posts: 1,958
Website

Re: Archlinux is moving to systemd

snovik wrote:

@Dieter@be

vboxdrv as a daemon?

otherwise posting such rc.conf does not seem to be enough. the problems is not here (or you can try killing all your daemons and see if it boots)

I was hoping there was a better way than just randomly changing configs until it seems to work.
a better way like getting actual diagnostic/debug/verbose log info?

you're right about vboxdrv, i checked the initscript and it basically just loads the modules, so I removed it from DAEMONS and did:

cat /etc/modules-load.d/vbox.conf
vboxnetflt
vboxnetadp

< Daenyth> and he works prolifically
4 8 15 16 23 42

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#178 2012-09-09 20:47:22

Dieter@be
Forum Fellow
From: Belgium
Registered: 2006-11-05
Posts: 1,958
Website

Re: Archlinux is moving to systemd

cfr wrote:

@Dieter@be,
How long did you wait? If systemd has trouble mounting anything it thinks should be there, it takes quite a while to time out and carry on. The docs say to wait at least 5 minutes.

you were right. if I wait longer I can go into a recovery shell and upon `journalctl` I can see there's something about my LVM LV service that failed to start, or something.  So I guess I can debug myself from here, thanks guys.


< Daenyth> and he works prolifically
4 8 15 16 23 42

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#179 2012-09-09 20:49:47

Teho
Member
Registered: 2010-01-30
Posts: 200

Re: Archlinux is moving to systemd

@Dieter@be: Unless you are specially testing the rc.conf compatibility shouldn't you use the native systemd service files instead? All of your daemons have native systemd unit files, namely:

syslog-ng.service
NetworkManager.service
cronie.service
sshd.service
openntpd.service
thinkfan.service
lm_sensors.service

After enabling all of those empty the DAEMONS=() line.


HP Elitebook 8560w | Arch Linux | KDE

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#180 2012-09-09 21:24:30

WorMzy
Forum Moderator
From: England
Registered: 2010-06-16
Posts: 5,028

Re: Archlinux is moving to systemd

litemotiv wrote:
Dieter@be wrote:

great.  added init=/bin/systemd to my boot args.

systemd seems to just hang after systemd-fsck

Recommended procedure is to open a new thread in Arch Discussion (just use "this sucks eggs" or "i hate you" as a title), and scream that you're leaving Arch. You get bonus points for incorporating the words "Allan" (5 points), "Poettering" (30 points) and "Trichotillomania" (50 points).

smile

How many points for requesting a fork of the entire distro? tongue

@Dieter@be: If you switch to native service files (thereby removing the need for rc.conf's daemon array), consider replacing initscripts with systemd-sysvcmpat. You can then remove init=... from your bootloader's kernel parameters, since /bin/init will be a symlink to systemd.


Sakura:-
Mobo: ASUS P8Z77-V PRO // Processor: Intel Core i7-3770K 3.4GHz // GFX: nVidia GeForce GTX 970 Ti // RAM: 32GB (4x 8GB) Corsair DDR3 (@ 2133MHz) // Storage: 1x 3TB Seagate SATAII 5x 1TB Samsung SATAII, 2x 120GB Corsair SSD

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#181 2012-09-11 10:56:22

TheSaint
Member
From: my computer
Registered: 2007-08-19
Posts: 1,368

Re: Archlinux is moving to systemd

I installed like this one but I preferred to do point 3 first of all others. It was easy and successful.
BTW virtualbox as moved from daemons some earlier version. Usually need just to load the vbox??? module(s).
kdms.service should to be a dependency in order to renew the module.


do it good first, it will be faster than do it twice the saint wink

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#182 2012-09-11 12:43:03

brain0
Developer
From: Aachen - Germany
Registered: 2005-01-03
Posts: 1,382

Re: Archlinux is moving to systemd

Dieter@be wrote:
cfr wrote:

@Dieter@be,
How long did you wait? If systemd has trouble mounting anything it thinks should be there, it takes quite a while to time out and carry on. The docs say to wait at least 5 minutes.

you were right. if I wait longer I can go into a recovery shell and upon `journalctl` I can see there's something about my LVM LV service that failed to start, or something.  So I guess I can debug myself from here, thanks guys.

systemctl enable lvm.service

And yeah, activate all daemons natively using systemctl, then:

systemctl mask arch-daemons.target

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#183 2012-09-11 14:27:08

squirrels
Member
Registered: 2012-09-11
Posts: 1

Re: Archlinux is moving to systemd

I have been working on Unix and VMS since 1984,  and have been a Linux sysadmin since the mid 90s - starting with Slackware, then when Volkerding took some time off, biting the bullet and moving to Debian. I have used Arch for only a few years, following Debian's failure to stand up to the Ubuntu devs and subsequent loss of integrity. I chose Arch because of the simplicity of the system, especially as regards the BSD-style init. I need my systems to be simple and manageable with only vim and a shell, and I don't have time to track through endless symlinks and a zillion config files to change one setting. I spend 60-80 hours a week working, attempting to be agile enough to keep up with the shifting ground of my employer's requirements. Despite the pointing and laughing on these forums at anyone who would be so foolish as to run Arch on servers, I do so confidently, and find it much more secure and stable than its competition. I have servers with uptimes in years and have yet to have a notable security incident with my Arch machines despite being in a field that is commonly a target.

Many of you have made good points regarding systemd's desirability, but they do not apply to serious system administration. We cannot take the time to relearn new init and system management systems constantly. It seems like lately, between the Ubuntu devs and the freedesktop.org architects and even the kernel devs, Linux is more in flux than in development. It saddens me. I am afraid that I am seeing it's demise as a server OS; another victim of the desktop wars.

I do not have any interest in speeding up the boot process. I invest in redundancy. If a server goes down another shoots it in the head. I am at leisure to boot the failure back up with almost any media I choose and do a forensic examination. I am in control of the init process through a small set of simple, manageable, and replicable scripts. If I need service monitoring and management I have choices - daemontools, xinetd, scripts - which I can make depending on the requirements of the situation. All my eggs are not in one basket. My systems are composed of many tiny utilities glued together, each with a single purpose, as is and always has been the *nix way, for very good reasons too extensive and obvious to enumerate here. Monolithic, overarching controllers give me the willies. They are rarely transparent or flexible.

I realize that the moderators and developers here don't particularly care what I have to say. I am not in any way a contributor, and I am apparently not part of the desired audience for this distribution. So be it. But, nonetheless, as Arch has seemed to me like the last bastion of sanity in an increasingly irrational world of Linux distributions, I felt that for once I must put in my two cents. You have all done an incredible job up to now of producing exactly the distribution I would have, had I time and energy to do so. Up until this change it has fit my needs precisely, and I despair of finding another as well suited.

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#184 2012-09-11 15:09:57

brain0
Developer
From: Aachen - Germany
Registered: 2005-01-03
Posts: 1,382

Re: Archlinux is moving to systemd

squirrels wrote:

I do not have any interest in speeding up the boot process. I invest in redundancy. If a server goes down another shoots it in the head. I am at leisure to boot the failure back up with almost any media I choose and do a forensic examination. I am in control of the init process through a small set of simple, manageable, and replicable scripts. If I need service monitoring and management I have choices - daemontools, xinetd, scripts - which I can make depending on the requirements of the situation.

You will find that:

  • On a server where you probably didn't even have dbus before, Arch's initscripts will keep working as they always did. At some point you'll have to install a package like "arch-rc-scripts", because the rc.d scripts will start disappearing from packages. This likely won't work indefinitely, but for a long time (just guessing here).

  • If you take a little bit of time to look into it, you will notice that managing your servers is much easier with systemd. It is much easier to configure them and gather information about problems with services. Next time you set up a server from scratch, try with systemd, and you will find that its capabilities make your job so much easier.

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#185 2012-09-11 20:14:38

gun26
Member
Registered: 2007-07-05
Posts: 54

Re: Archlinux is moving to systemd

Hmm - interesting how many different views we all have of Arch, and how many Arch users seem to feel that they are being left behind. This isn't unique to Arch, by the way - Ubuntu's Unity is still controversial, there are lots of Gnome Shell haters out there, many onetime KDE 3.x users still haven't forgiven KDE for the change to 4.x ,and Windows users are about to sail on uncharted waters with Windows 8 and the "don't-call-it-Metro-any-more" interface. When a platform makes a big change, people inevitably seem to take it personally.

The fact is that Arch is a very small project in terms of developer effort. No one gets paid to work on it, to the best of my knowledge. The limited time available to develop Arch means that upstream projects get passed on to us pretty much as is. When Gnome 3 happened, we had no choice but to go with it, or stop using Gnome. The Arch kernel has very few patches other than Squashfs to make the live CDs work -- it's pretty much the pure mainline kernel.

If the upstreams that we all depend on decide to go for something new, we have no choice but to go along. Which brings me around to the current bete noire of the traditionalists - systemd. Frankly, I would estimate at least half of the intransigent opposition to it is rooted in the fact that it was Lennart Poettering's idea. I've had no trouble with it on several Arch installs here. The main difficulty with it is the change in terminology and attendant learning curve - and as learning curves go, this one isn't particularly daunting - and the fact that we don't yet have a complete set of systemd units (the systemd equivalent of init scripts) for all packages available in Arch.

In any case, as brain0 points out above, initscripts will continue to be maintained and will keep working just fine for a long time to come. The functions once performed by udev will be carried out by a package called systemd instead of udev, but tradition-minded Arch users can otherwise ignore the existence of systemd for years, especially in the case of servers. I think the ardent opponents to it need to relax, and perhaps go to the Arch wiki to reread "The Arch Way", which hasn't changed in a long long time.

What I'm really afraid of is that all the ad-hominem attacks on Poettering and on the entirely blameless Arch devs are going to demoralize valuable people and lead to them finding something else to do with their time - something that doesn't involve putting up with very personal abuse from trollish users who have made little or no contribution to Arch - or to much else, for that matter.

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#186 2012-09-11 21:15:02

tomk
Forum Fellow
From: Ireland
Registered: 2004-07-21
Posts: 9,837

Re: Archlinux is moving to systemd

gun26 wrote:

The limited time available to develop Arch means that upstream projects get passed on to us pretty much as is.

Not quite. Packaging upstream releases with as little interference as possible is a deliberate Arch policy, not an incidental result of a supposed lack of manpower.

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#187 2012-09-11 21:34:54

karol
Archivist
Registered: 2009-05-06
Posts: 25,423

Re: Archlinux is moving to systemd

At least some Arch devs are active upstream wrt to some packages.

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#188 2012-09-11 21:48:23

nisok
Member
Registered: 2012-07-23
Posts: 9
Website

Re: Archlinux is moving to systemd

greetings to all

( this is my very first "flame"-like post... and probably the last)

Introduction about me:
I am a new Arch user but for more than a decade Linux user and part of some distros loco teams etc. etc.
I use Linux in every aspect of my digital life.

The message:
Every time the same thing! Something new comes out and a branch of people immediately start protesting against it ... even if Linux distros have proved  their "stupid" backwards compatibility in every  chance they got ( e.g. X11 probably supports every display ever made ).
Some distros are considered desktop-optimized or server-optimized. Off course, you may use wherever you like... but this kind of things happens from time to time. Then is up to you to read the new manual or find a new distro.
But usually is more easy to start writing posts on forums expressing your disappointment! Why???

This is the same thing that you did with KDE4 ... the first six months all the linux community was flaming it, how much looks like windows
... gnome3 is a mesh....
... unity is a bigger mesh...
... ubuntu is too mainstream and I am a uber-linux-admin....
... plymouth useless eyecandy ....
... now systemd... I like the 100 scripts I use ... and don't dare to change my habits!!

( ... this list could continue for ever ... )

And after you go to a pub or a bar and start crying that the community is too small and you don't have 3D support for your video card. Or cannot find on linux the applications you need for your work (like autocad... or similar)... putting the blame on the corporations.

How can the community grow if the only thing that we know to blame on each other?
How will the market will grow and new devs start developing their native applications?

Last edited by nisok (2012-09-11 21:50:25)

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#189 2012-09-11 23:20:31

Awebb
Member
Registered: 2010-05-06
Posts: 4,132

Re: Archlinux is moving to systemd

I have yet to find anything systemd relevant that disturbs me enough to complain. Most of the trouble is a question of getting used to. I shall share, what I realized today.

1. Yay! Daemon scripts.
You cannot create a pseudo daemon like alsa anymore, by simply hacking together a script in /etc/rc.d. My first example would be alsa, that "daemon" does not really do anything after starting and before stopping, extra daemon commands like "force-restart" cannot be implemented anymore, because systemctl will only understand start, stop, restart, reload and status. Every single daemon has now a "status" command, that cannot be customized. I have not found out a systemd-daemon-ish way to save the iptables settings. It's not iptables-save > /path/to/conf. I wonder if this is a "feature", to make people be more careful about saving iptables rules. I guess one could abuse the "ExecReload" field in the service file for that, as restarting does exactly that, flushing and restoring the tables, so restart could be re-allocated to save, if one insisted on having such an option. But we're not thinking in daemons anymore, we're dealing with services now. We do not interact with services that do not provide daemons. iptables is not a daemon anymore, it's a service that reloads the config on starting and flushes it on stopping it. We now need a client, that understands how to generate the iptables.rules and where to put it. Fortunately, that is as short as an alias.

Then we have things like…

. /etc/rc.conf
. /etc/rc.d/functions
. /etc/conf.d/$daemon_name.conf

…in the beginning of some scripts like /etc/rc.d/git-daemon. I assume the first two are obsolete and systemd looks up "EnvironmentFiles" from the $SERVICE.system file. The systemd-ish style looks less flexible, it forces a sane style on you. You cannot hack together stuff anymore and hope it works. If this is a good thing or not is not in my hands to judge. It could stop bad programmers from writing bad popular code.

And now let's have a look at /etc/rc.d/vde, I will now comment it line by line… or maybe I will not :-D


2. Wtf does systemd do?
systemd seems to do more than just managing daemons. While this was clear from the beginning, I really wonder why audio over HDMI suddenly works, from the moment I installed and started systemd. The term "init system" is too abstract to comprehend.

Have a look here: http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/why.html
It says "mount handling", "automount handling", "quota handling". Is that really systemd, that handles all those things, or rather services started by systemd doing all the hard work? Can we really say systemd does all those things? The quota service file does nothing without /sbin/quotaon and other tools from the quota-tools package, which is not part or in any way connected to the systemd project. Maybe quota-tools should be in the optdepends array of the systemd package (FS#31502). Now after having a closer look at those services, I cannot say that systemd does too many things to be UNIX-ish. It manages system services. That sounds like a single task to me.


3. Less to do = brain shrinks
It seems like systemd makes many things so easy, that I do not have the feeling I'm really learning anything anymore. In six months, I will have completely forgotton about old init scripts, PID handling and other things. If I then, instead of excessively exercising glorified mental masturbation at the university, have to return to a job as a system administrator, I will stand in front of Linux machines - which usually predate paintings in the cave of El Castillo - and I will fail horribly. It's a good thing I didn't try systemd three months ago, I would have lost that job, instead of quitting.


@nisok: Gnome 3 still sucks. We Gnome haters just stopped complaining, because we moved on. The difference between Gnome 3 and systemd is, that it is not too hard to judge, wether you like Gnome 3 or not, because all you have to do is use it for a day or two. Being able to tell wether systemd is rubbish, however, takes a certain learning phase. I'd even say most systemd haters simply started to believe the FUD they keep reading. I didn't want it either, after all the horror stories I had read. I wouldn't have made the switch, if Arch wouldn't go into that direction anyway. But it wasn't too bad. I already got used to it after a week or so.

Last edited by Awebb (2012-09-11 23:29:12)

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#190 2012-09-11 23:38:16

ngoonee
Forum Fellow
From: Between Thailand and Singapore
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 6,790

Re: Archlinux is moving to systemd

nisok wrote:

( this is my very first "flame"-like post... and probably the last)

You know, if you started a thread with this post it'd be in TGN double-quick time. Please stay on topic.


Allan-Volunteer on the (topic being discussed) mailn lists. You never get the people who matters attention on the forums.
jasonwryan-Installing Arch is a measure of your literacy. Maintaining Arch is a measure of your diligence. Contributing to Arch is a measure of your competence.
Griemak-Bleeding edge, not bleeding flat. Edge denotes falls will occur from time to time. Bring your own parachute.

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#191 2012-09-12 13:29:13

Mad Fish
Member
Registered: 2009-09-22
Posts: 295

Re: Archlinux is moving to systemd

At this moment, any topic containing "systemd philosophical discussions" should be considered TGN. Everything technical and relevant has already been said gazillion times. My suggestion to moderators is to start closing these - they're not helpful nor they add any new value to the case.

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#192 2012-09-14 01:49:44

ConnorBehan
Trusted User (TU)
From: Long Island NY
Registered: 2007-07-05
Posts: 1,356
Website

Re: Archlinux is moving to systemd

gun26 wrote:

What I'm really afraid of is that all the ad-hominem attacks on Poettering and on the entirely blameless Arch devs are going to demoralize valuable people and lead to them finding something else to do with their time - something that doesn't involve putting up with very personal abuse from trollish users who have made little or no contribution to Arch - or to much else, for that matter.

Somehow I think it will have the opposite effect. When Pidgin came under fire for the "extremely stupid textbox that resized itself", a certain Pidgin developer who considered quitting said "I can't quit now, because then the terrorists win!"

On that topic, the most vocal so-called troll regarding the systemd move does contribute to projects other than Arch... namely Pidgin and Gstreamer. I was interested in his work four years ago because I was one of the Pidgin users most opposed to the "stupid textbox".


6EA3 F3F3 B908 2632 A9CB E931 D53A 0445 B47A 0DAB
Great things come in tar.xz packages.

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#193 2012-09-14 01:52:15

Allan
Developer
From: Brisbane, AU
Registered: 2007-06-09
Posts: 10,362
Website

Re: Archlinux is moving to systemd

gun26 wrote:

What I'm really afraid of is that all the ad-hominem attacks on Poettering and on the entirely blameless Arch devs are going to demoralize valuable people and lead to them finding something else to do with their time - something that doesn't involve putting up with very personal abuse from trollish users who have made little or no contribution to Arch - or to much else, for that matter.

That made me laugh...    You think we listen to users?!  tongue

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#194 2012-09-14 02:02:17

ewaller
Administrator
From: Pasadena, CA
Registered: 2009-07-13
Posts: 12,419

Re: Archlinux is moving to systemd

Mad Fish wrote:

At this moment, any topic containing "systemd philosophical discussions" should be considered TGN. Everything technical and relevant has already been said gazillion times. My suggestion to moderators is to start closing these - they're not helpful nor they add any new value to the case.

Speaking for all the moderators - Amen.  I think we have all shown tremendous restraint, but this systemd stuff is starting to annoy.  BTW, I hope everyone realizes that the moderators have -zero- influence over the developers.  We do, however, have their backs smile


Nothing is too wonderful to be true, if it be consistent with the laws of nature -- Michael Faraday
Like you, I have no idea what you are doing, but I am pretty sure it is wrong...Jasonwryan
----
How to Ask Questions the Smart Way

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#195 2012-09-14 02:16:21

cfr
Member
From: Cymru
Registered: 2011-11-27
Posts: 5,661

Re: Archlinux is moving to systemd

I wish people would stop calling it "philosophy".

(x)(Rant(x)->~Phil(x))

How To Ask Questions The Smart Way | Help Vampires

Arch Linux | x86_64 | GPT | EFI boot | grub2 | systemd | LVM2 on LUKS
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#196 2012-09-14 19:43:13

msx
Member
From: solar.system/earth/ar/bue/mdp
Registered: 2010-08-08
Posts: 184
Website

Re: Archlinux is moving to systemd

@tomegun Great, great post, thanks for the straight-forward explanation.


Enjoying i3wm w/ lifebar + j4-dmenu-desktop + tab_windows / fish shell / Emacs / tmux / Konsole / KDE apps
Arch + Linux-libre kernel: ParabolaGNULinux.org

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#197 2012-09-18 12:01:58

virus_found
Member
From: Moscow
Registered: 2009-05-22
Posts: 51
Website

Re: Archlinux is moving to systemd

Is it a pity that we are now obliged to have dbus and some other packages installed. Just for systemd.

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#198 2012-09-18 12:14:24

litemotiv
Forum Fellow
Registered: 2008-08-01
Posts: 5,026

Re: Archlinux is moving to systemd

virus_found wrote:

Is it a pity that we are now obliged to have dbus and some other packages installed. Just for systemd.

Yes, dbus will be the only unused package / program on your entire harddrive, pity.


ᶘ ᵒᴥᵒᶅ

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#199 2012-09-18 12:31:04

tomk
Forum Fellow
From: Ireland
Registered: 2004-07-21
Posts: 9,837

Re: Archlinux is moving to systemd

virus_found, as has been exhaustively explained, systemd is the developer's choice, but it doesn't have to be yours. You are not obliged to do anything you don't want with your system.

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#200 2012-09-18 12:35:45

virus_found
Member
From: Moscow
Registered: 2009-05-22
Posts: 51
Website

Re: Archlinux is moving to systemd

I mean, if we want to have /dev populated automatically, we have to install dbus.

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