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#51 2012-09-08 12:18:07

ratcheer
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Registered: 2011-10-09
Posts: 518

Re: Fontconfig confusion.

@cfr, thanks. I read AndyRTR's post to mean that you should only select one font from each nn group (10-, 11-, 20-, ...), but maybe I read more into it than he actually meant.

Tim

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#52 2012-09-09 01:13:39

cfr
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From: Cymru
Registered: 2011-11-27
Posts: 5,675

Re: Fontconfig confusion.

AndyRTR wrote:

There's 5 options for subpixel rendering, 2 for hinting and 3 for lcdfilter.

5 for subpixel rendering:

10-no-sub-pixel.conf  10-sub-pixel-bgr.conf  10-sub-pixel-rgb.conf  10-sub-pixel-vbgr.conf  10-sub-pixel-vrgb.conf

2 for hinting:

10-autohint.conf  10-unhinted.conf

3 for lcdfilter:

11-lcdfilter-default.conf  11-lcdfilter-legacy.conf  11-lcdfilter-light.conf

Pick one from each group because the members of each group are mutually inconsistent with each other. For example, you can't have both autohinting and no hinting as default...

Hence:

The admin should choose the 10-, 11-xxx.conf setting. That can be done by additional linking or in custom systemwide or per user xml config files. See man fonts-conf or our wiki page. With modern TFT screens you probably want to enable (auto-/bytecode)hinting, subpixel-rendering(rgb) and lcd(default). That should give you good fonts in common desktops.

The files numbered 20 and above are a different matter:

All links from 20-xxx.conf and above are shipped (=enabled) in the package for good reason.

The files in these groups are not usually mutually inconsistent. For example:

20-unhint-small-dejavu-sans-mono.conf  20-unhint-small-dejavu-sans.conf  20-unhint-small-dejavu-serif.conf

enable no hinting for different fonts at small sizes. If you prefer e.g. dejavu sans unhinted at small sizes but the others hinted, just have the one for sans enabled (i.e. remove the default symlinks for the other two) but probably you want hinting disabled at small sizes for all the fonts in this family so in that case, leave all three default symlinks in place.


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#53 2012-09-09 11:57:25

ratcheer
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Registered: 2011-10-09
Posts: 518

Re: Fontconfig confusion.

Thank you, @cfr. That clarifies things even further.

Tim

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#54 2012-09-09 22:48:28

userlander
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Registered: 2008-08-23
Posts: 413

Re: Fontconfig confusion.

When I move ~/.fontconfig to ~/.config/ nothing happens, and when I move ~/.fonts.conf into ~/.config/fontconfig, my fonts get all ugly again and I still get the warning. Conky won't read OpenLogos font anymore, either. Not sure what else to do but put up with these bugs until they get fixed.

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#55 2012-09-10 00:31:54

cfr
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Re: Fontconfig confusion.

What I did was left ~/.fontconfig where it was; created ~/.config/fontconfig; and moved ~/.fonts.conf to ~/.config/fontconfig/fonts.conf.

Does that help?


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#56 2012-09-10 10:01:41

32reg
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Re: Fontconfig confusion.

userlander wrote:

...Conky won't read OpenLogos font...

the same thing here
won't read OpenLogos font and Pie charts for maps font


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#57 2012-09-10 17:21:43

userlander
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Registered: 2008-08-23
Posts: 413

Re: Fontconfig confusion.

cfr wrote:

What I did was left ~/.fontconfig where it was; created ~/.config/fontconfig; and moved ~/.fonts.conf to ~/.config/fontconfig/fonts.conf.

Does that help?

No, that's of no help at all. If you start any program at the command line, it'll give the error in 50-user.conf about ~/.fonts.conf.

What I had to do on my laptop was move a working-fix ~/.fonts.conf to /etc/fonts/local.conf. Putting it in ~/.config/fontconfig didn't make any difference, not sure it's even reading anything from there but symlinks maybe.

Nothing yet works on desktop, going to have to try something from AUR to get around this mess, apparently. My terminals look like they're using some crappy default font from 1991, and the geometries are all weird.

Regarding Openlogos issue, noticed that it can't read webdings font, either. Not sure why "upgrades" have to cause such a mess.

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#58 2012-09-10 23:06:26

cfr
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Re: Fontconfig confusion.

userlander wrote:

No, that's of no help at all. If you start any program at the command line, it'll give the error in 50-user.conf about ~/.fonts.conf.

Interesting though false if the referent of 'you' is me. Although I still get all the infinality fontconfig errors in this case, doing what I described really did get rid of the error about ~/.fonts.conf.


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#59 2012-09-11 02:12:32

bohoomil
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Re: Fontconfig confusion.

Just a little remark: when you run 'fc-cache -f -v' to update your font cache, there will be created a new cache directory in $XDG_CACHE_HOME/fontconfig, thus the old location -- ~/.fontconfig -- can be safely removed. This way the entire user font configuration lands in the right places. However, to avoid confusion it seems reasonable to check if there are no accidental duplicates left in legacy locations.


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#60 2012-09-11 14:49:39

userlander
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Registered: 2008-08-23
Posts: 413

Re: Fontconfig confusion.

cfr wrote:
userlander wrote:

No, that's of no help at all. If you start any program at the command line, it'll give the error in 50-user.conf about ~/.fonts.conf.

Interesting though false if the referent of 'you' is me. Although I still get all the infinality fontconfig errors in this case, doing what I described really did get rid of the error about ~/.fonts.conf.

That is interesting, I wonder why mine still gives the error?

I'm trying infinality, not sure I can get used to these cleartype-like fonts, and a lot of applications like chromium, leafpad, gvim, gimp, etc. don't seem to take the settings, resulting in really ugly menus and other application fonts (like in status bar, etc.). So that is pretty much a deal breaker for me. I also get those errors in infinality, so it seems like it's maybe a good idea, but ultimately just a kluge.

Going back to standard pkgs, and maybe ubuntu patches to try to fix all this. Maybe with a lot of hard work fonts can be rendered somewhat usable again. Really a shame that the best distro has to have the worst fonts. Almost makes me want to install another distro... almost, but not quite. : P


:-0!

10:48 AM:~ $ Fontconfig warning: "/etc/fonts/conf.d/50-user.conf", line 9: reading configurations from ~/.fonts.conf is deprecated.
Fontconfig warning: "/etc/fonts/infinality/conf.d/41-repl-os-linux.conf", line 16: Having multiple values in <test> isn't supported and may not works as expected
Fontconfig warning: "/etc/fonts/infinality/conf.d/41-repl-os-linux.conf", line 29: Having multiple values in <test> isn't supported and may not works as expected
Fontconfig warning: "/etc/fonts/infinality/conf.d/41-repl-os-linux.conf", line 39: Having multiple values in <test> isn't supported and may not works as expected
Fontconfig warning: "/etc/fonts/infinality/conf.d/41-repl-os-linux.conf", line 48: Having multiple values in <test> isn't supported and may not works as expected
Fontconfig warning: "/etc/fonts/infinality/conf.d/41-repl-os-linux.conf", line 60: Having multiple values in <test> isn't supported and may not works as expected
Fontconfig warning: "/etc/fonts/infinality/conf.d/41-repl-os-linux.conf", line 71: Having multiple values in <test> isn't supported and may not works as expected
Fontconfig warning: "/etc/fonts/infinality/conf.d/41-repl-os-linux.conf", line 82: Having multiple values in <test> isn't supported and may not works as expected
Fontconfig warning: "/etc/fonts/infinality/conf.d/41-repl-os-linux.conf", line 92: Having multiple values in <test> isn't supported and may not works as expected
Fontconfig warning: "/etc/fonts/infinality/conf.d/60-group-non-tt-fonts.conf", line 483: Having multiple values in <test> isn't supported and may not works as expected
Fontconfig warning: "/etc/fonts/infinality/conf.d/60-group-tt-fonts.conf", line 262: Having multiple values in <test> isn't supported and may not works as expected
Fontconfig warning: "/etc/fonts/infinality/conf.d/62-tt-monospace-rendering.conf", line 27: Having multiple values in <test> isn't supported and may not works as expected
Fontconfig warning: "/etc/fonts/infinality/conf.d/62-tt-traced-bitmap-rendering.conf", line 21: Having multiple values in <test> isn't supported and may not works as expected
Fontconfig warning: "/etc/fonts/infinality/conf.d/62-tt-traced-bitmap-rendering.conf", line 50: Having multiple values in <test> isn't supported and may not works as expected
Fontconfig warning: "/etc/fonts/infinality/conf.d/80-selective-rendering-inf-win-lin.conf", line 16: Having multiple values in <test> isn't supported and may not works as expected
Fontconfig warning: "/etc/fonts/infinality/conf.d/80-selective-rendering-inf-win-lin.conf", line 31: Having multiple values in <test> isn't supported and may not works as expected
Fontconfig warning: "/etc/fonts/infinality/conf.d/80-selective-rendering-inf-win-lin.conf", line 102: Having multiple values in <test> isn't supported and may not works as expected
Fontconfig warning: "/etc/fonts/infinality/conf.d/80-selective-rendering-inf-win-lin.conf", line 119: Having multiple values in <test> isn't supported and may not works as expected
Fontconfig warning: "/etc/fonts/infinality/conf.d/80-selective-rendering-inf-win-lin.conf", line 138: Having multiple values in <test> isn't supported and may not works as expected
Fontconfig warning: "/etc/fonts/infinality/conf.d/80-selective-rendering-inf-win-lin.conf", line 158: Having multiple values in <test> isn't supported and may not works as expected

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#61 2012-09-11 17:16:22

bohoomil
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Registered: 2010-09-04
Posts: 2,376
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Re: Fontconfig confusion.

userlander wrote:

Going back to standard pkgs, and maybe ubuntu patches to try to fix all this. Maybe with a lot of hard work fonts can be rendered somewhat usable again. Really a shame that the best distro has to have the worst fonts. Almost makes me want to install another distro... almost, but not quite. : P


:-0!

10:48 AM:~ $ Fontconfig warning: "/etc/fonts/conf.d/50-user.conf", line 9: reading configurations from ~/.fonts.conf is deprecated.
Fontconfig warning: "/etc/fonts/infinality/conf.d/41-repl-os-linux.conf", line 16: Having multiple values in <test> isn't supported and may not works as expected

In another, non-fontconfig thread, I provided examples (and some ready to use files) how to eliminate those errors...

The new fontconfig release works very well, although it's not 100% compatible with previous config versions. DIY distributions are per natura the easiest and most obedient when you want to configure the font engine (as opposed to those that are a real pain to configure, but offer (very) good looking fonts out of the box), and for this reason, in certain cases and applications such distros are better. It simply seems that many Arch users never paid too much attention to the way fonts in Linux work, hence all the confusion when eventually they have to do a little symlinkin' job...

Last edited by bohoomil (2012-09-11 17:29:46)


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#62 2012-09-12 00:57:08

userlander
Member
Registered: 2008-08-23
Posts: 413

Re: Fontconfig confusion.

bohoomil wrote:
userlander wrote:

Going back to standard pkgs, and maybe ubuntu patches to try to fix all this. Maybe with a lot of hard work fonts can be rendered somewhat usable again. Really a shame that the best distro has to have the worst fonts. Almost makes me want to install another distro... almost, but not quite. : P


:-0!

10:48 AM:~ $ Fontconfig warning: "/etc/fonts/conf.d/50-user.conf", line 9: reading configurations from ~/.fonts.conf is deprecated.
Fontconfig warning: "/etc/fonts/infinality/conf.d/41-repl-os-linux.conf", line 16: Having multiple values in <test> isn't supported and may not works as expected

In another, non-fontconfig thread, I provided examples (and some ready to use files) how to eliminate those errors...

The new fontconfig release works very well, although it's not 100% compatible with previous config versions. DIY distributions are per natura the easiest and most obedient when you want to configure the font engine (as opposed to those that are a real pain to configure, but offer (very) good looking fonts out of the box), and for this reason, in certain cases and applications such distros are better. It simply seems that many Arch users never paid too much attention to the way fonts in Linux work, hence all the confusion when eventually they have to do a little symlinkin' job...

Don't have a problem with symlinking, the issue is that the exact same symlinks now fail to provide the same results. After some inconsistent tweaking on each of my Arch computers (meaning what worked on one doesn't work on the other), I've managed to get *somewhat* decent looking fonts, in one case by having to use a custom .fonts.conf from even years ago.

I think the fact that webdings, openlogos, and perhaps some other fonts now fail to display shows that there is in fact something amiss with the new fontconfig. ; -)

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#63 2012-09-12 03:47:36

bohoomil
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Registered: 2010-09-04
Posts: 2,376
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Re: Fontconfig confusion.

This custom years old .fonts.conf sounds really interesting. May I ask what exactly you put inside it?

The problem with several dingbat fonts lies in their encoding, which is set to Macintosh Latin instead of ISO-10646-1. I believe the issue can be fixed either in an ugly way (by changing the font's encoding: this takes a couple of minutes) or a nicer one (by making use of bugzilla). smile

By the way, your fonts will render dramatically better when you use freetype2 with Infinality patches (which means that most generic fontconfig rules will have to be replaced by their Infinality equivalents).


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#64 2012-09-12 07:38:40

Mait
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Registered: 2012-09-12
Posts: 8

Re: Fontconfig confusion.

Sorry, off topic.

wiki says,

Fontconfig processes files in /etc/fonts/conf.d in reverse numerical order. This enables rules or files to override one another, but often confuses users about what file gets parsed last.
To guarantee that personal settings take precedence over any other rules, change their ordering:

# cd /etc/fonts/conf.d
# mv 50-user.conf 00-user.conf

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Fo … overriding

Is that right? But, fonts-conf manpage said,

The filenames starting with decimal digits are sorted in lexicographic order and used as additional configuration files.

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#65 2012-09-12 10:25:42

thisoldman
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From: Pittsburgh
Registered: 2009-04-25
Posts: 1,172

Re: Fontconfig confusion.

The wiki page wording may be confusing.  The rules in the lower number files take priority over the rules in the higher number files.

This does mean the higher number is processed first.  But the last file to be processed is the ruling file.  I have two files in /etc/fonts/fonts.conf.d:
    38-no-calibri.conf, substitutes 'Droid Serif' for Calibri
    39-no-calibri.conf, substitutes a Helvetica font for Calibri.

$ fc-cache -f
$ fc-match Calibri
DroidSerif-Regular.ttf: "Droid Serif" "Regular"

$ sudo rm -v 38-no-calibri.conf 
removed ‘38-no-calibri.conf'
$ fc-cache -f
$ fc-match Calibri
helveticaltstd-roman.otf: "Helvetica LT Std" "Roman"

When the '38' file is present, it overrules the '39' file.

Edit to fix missing char from a copy-paste action.

Last edited by thisoldman (2012-09-12 10:36:17)

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#66 2012-09-12 13:30:51

Mait
Member
Registered: 2012-09-12
Posts: 8

Re: Fontconfig confusion.

thisoldman wrote:

The wiki page wording may be confusing.  The rules in the lower number files take priority over the rules in the higher number files.

This does mean the higher number is processed first.  But the last file to be processed is the ruling file.  I have two files in /etc/fonts/fonts.conf.d:
    38-no-calibri.conf, substitutes 'Droid Serif' for Calibri
    39-no-calibri.conf, substitutes a Helvetica font for Calibri.

$ fc-cache -f
$ fc-match Calibri
DroidSerif-Regular.ttf: "Droid Serif" "Regular"

$ sudo rm -v 38-no-calibri.conf 
removed ‘38-no-calibri.conf'
$ fc-cache -f
$ fc-match Calibri
helveticaltstd-roman.otf: "Helvetica LT Std" "Roman"

When the '38' file is present, it overrules the '39' file.

Edit to fix missing char from a copy-paste action.

I'm still wondering.

My ~/.fonts.conf(included by 50-user.conf) always override 10-whatever.conf.
Sort of autohint, hintstyle, hinting...

Last edited by Mait (2012-09-12 13:31:12)

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#67 2012-09-12 16:02:08

thisoldman
Member
From: Pittsburgh
Registered: 2009-04-25
Posts: 1,172

Re: Fontconfig confusion.

Yes, /home/user/.fonts.conf will override the system settings.  There's a directory precedence order, too.  See the file '/etc/fonts/fonts.conf' for the directory order.

I think that's the correct filename.  I'm at work and can't double-check.  But the user's configuration, in his home directory, is read last, so any configurations written there will override the system settings.

Last edited by thisoldman (2012-09-12 16:03:16)

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#68 2012-09-12 19:25:38

32reg
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Registered: 2012-08-06
Posts: 23
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Re: Fontconfig confusion.

how about openlogos and Pie_charts_for_maps fonts?


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#69 2012-09-12 23:11:35

cfr
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From: Cymru
Registered: 2011-11-27
Posts: 5,675

Re: Fontconfig confusion.

I find the substitution rules rather confusing and different applications seem to do different things. (For example, LibreOffice annoyingly substitutes sans-serif fonts for serif ones.)

Do substitution rules only apply if the target font is not available?

So in the example of Calibri/Helvetica/Droid, if Calibri were available, would fontconfig stick with Calibri or would it substitute Droid/Helvetica?

If neither Droid nor Calibri was available, would fontconfig use Helvetica even if the 38- conf link existed?


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#70 2012-09-13 00:13:23

bohoomil
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Re: Fontconfig confusion.

If Calibri were available and fontconfig were instructed to use another font instead, it would do so following the rules. The physical availability is not a crucial factor for a font to be used or not, but instructions given in *.conf files. (No rules simply means that fontconfig is free to decide what to do without further restrictions.) That's why when you are using font1 and it doesn't cover all characters required by the document you want to display, fontconfig will search for a similar font2 and provide the missing characters from it. You have to remember that each font uses a pretty complex collection of IDs (family, weight and style being the most evident for the end user) that helps to classify its many features. However, once you exclude the font from the list of available options, fontconfig will search elsewhere*).

What comes really handy is the possibility to prioritize fonts with certain features. For instance, you have several fonts capable of displaying Chinese characters and you like one or two of them best, so you can use a list to help fontconfig choose just those:

~ $ cat 30-non-latin.conf

<match target="font" >
  <alias>
    <family>serif</family>
      <prefer>
        <family>Kai</family>
        <family>STKaiti</family>
        <family>LiSong Pro</family>
 . . . 
      </prefer>
    </alias>
  </match>
</fontconfig>

*) Or will use the font only when the limitation applies -- see thisoldman's clarification of rules 38 vs 39. This can, under certain conditions, let you use a font which, for instance, provides characters for one language, but for others should be replaced by a different one. See fontconfig documentation (man fonts-conf) for a complete list of properties that may be used this way.

Last edited by bohoomil (2012-09-13 00:26:21)


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#71 2012-09-13 01:46:28

thisoldman
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From: Pittsburgh
Registered: 2009-04-25
Posts: 1,172

Re: Fontconfig confusion.

To help illustrate, here's the results of matching a non-existent font, "Any Font" on my system.  I've I changed my 38-no-calibri.conf to substitute "Any Font" for Calibri.

$ fc-match Calibri
DejaVuSans.ttf: "DejaVu Sans" "Book"

$ fc-match "Any Font"
DejaVuSans.ttf: "DejaVu Sans" "Book"

My default san-serif font is "DejaVu Sans" and I use '49-sansserif.conf' which sets any otherwise unmatchable font to "sans-serif".

OpenOffice and LibreOffice have their own ways with fonts.  I think the oddness they sometimes exhibit may be related to their being cross-platform.  It's probably difficult to match fonts and font-metrics across the different operating systems.

@32reg, I just tested OpenLogos from the AUR.  Fontforge can't display any glyphs from the TTF file.  An older version, downloaded from dafonts.com, does display glyphs (and uses the old Arch logo).  Both fonts you enquired about are limited user base, novelty fonts; I wouldn't expect updates to them.

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#72 2012-09-15 16:03:11

android_808
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Registered: 2011-10-17
Posts: 17

Re: Fontconfig confusion.

I ship an updated version of OpenLogos, Pie_charts_for_maps, ConkySymbol with the conky-colors package.  If anyone can provide some help in getting these working it would be much appreciated.

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#73 2012-09-15 22:11:23

cfr
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From: Cymru
Registered: 2011-11-27
Posts: 5,675

Re: Fontconfig confusion.

I need to figure fontconfig out...  No wonder mine show up horribly - it is substituting Arial for everything!

In the case of a serif font, like Garamond, is the problem that it doesn't know Garamond is serif or is it just not possible for it to substitute a different font for serifs than san serifs?

I'm still getting reams of errors about infinality, though, so I don't know if I would get different results if that were updated for the new packages.

Have I understood the infinality patch set correctly? As far as I can tell, in addition to the tweaks it applies re. hinting, sub-pixel rendering etc., it also imposes a uniform set of fonts. So if, for example, I am using the infinality style, it will replace Liberation Sans Mono with Courier, Helvetica with Arial and Times with Times New Roman even if I have Liberation Sans, Courier and Times installed?

And if I then switch the style to linux, it will replace Arial with Liberation Sans, Courier with Liberation Mono, and both Times and Times New Roman with DejaVu Serif even if I have Arial, Courier, Times and Times New Roman installed?

When I installed infinality, it honestly didn't occur to me that it might do this. I think I just assumed it would use the various different choices for cases where the font requested was not available on the system.

Is this a peculiarity of infinality's patches or will any fontconfig setup essentially do the same thing? I guess I'm not clear why it isn't better to use a font which is an exact match when that is available and to fall back to substitutes only when necessary. Or am I missing something really basic?

In the case of a font like Palatino which one of my colleagues has taken a fancy to on OS X, 30-urw-aliases includes:

       <alias binding="same">
          <family>Palatino</family>
          <accept><family>URW Palladio L</family></accept>
        </alias>

Yet fc-match shows that Palatino will be replaced by Liberation Sans! (Rather than Arial because I fiddled with infinality's settings above.) But 30 should be processed before infinality's settings, right? And gsfonts provides the standard URW fonts specified in 30-urw-aliases.conf. So is this because fontconfig cannot use type1 fonts? But then what purpose does the 30-urw-aliases.conf file serve?

Last edited by cfr (2012-09-15 23:04:33)


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#74 2012-09-16 15:52:49

android_808
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Registered: 2011-10-17
Posts: 17

Re: Fontconfig confusion.

for those having problems with conkSymbol, Pie_charts_for_maps, aClock etc usedl with conky-colors, helmuthdu has re-encoded all of them to fix the problem.  OpenLogo shipped with conky-colors has also been re-encoded but for some reason it messed around with the character used for each icon.

if using conky-colors, recreate your config file after updating.

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#75 2012-09-16 20:15:46

thisoldman
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From: Pittsburgh
Registered: 2009-04-25
Posts: 1,172

Re: Fontconfig confusion.

@cfr, 
I do not have infinality installed.
If infinality settings are being processed after 30-urw-aliases, infinality's settings will override.  The last file processed is the file that counts.

I could be mistaken, but I think 30-urw-aliases merely says to consider URW Palladio when matching, but it does not force the match.  The wiki has a section on replacing a font, https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Fo … lace_fonts.

Here's the excerpt from my ~/.config//fontconfig/fonts.conf where I do force substitutions for some purchased fonts.  It's different from the wiki.

    <!-- Replace bitmap Helvetica -->
    <match target="pattern">
        <test name="family">
            <string>Helvetica</string>
        </test>
        <edit name="family" mode="prepend" binding="strong">
            <string>Helvetica LT Std</string>
        </edit>
    </match>

    <!-- Replace URW Palladio L with a better Palatino -->
    <match target="pattern">

        <test name="family">
            <string>Palatino</string>
        </test>
        <edit name="family" mode="prepend" binding="strong">
            <string>Palatino Linotype</string>
        </edit>
    </match>

XML is hard for humans to parse and no one has ever made a noob-friendly guide for font configuration.  I could sure use that guide.  We all pick up pieces of understanding here and there, solve our immediate problem, and then pray we never have to deal with fontconfig again.

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