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#1 2012-11-19 14:24:14

0mark
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From: earth
Registered: 2010-06-09
Posts: 139
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Arch linux without Systemd

Since i do not like systemd, and the homepage said rc scripts will be removed from january 2013 on, im looking for a way back to the old init scripts (or any sysv style init). What would be the best way to do that? I found some aur packages, but i guess i have to write init scripts for myself then?


Ceterum autem censeo Systemdinem esse delendam

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#2 2012-11-19 14:39:38

fsckd
Forum Moderator
Registered: 2009-06-15
Posts: 3,566

Re: Arch linux without Systemd

Yeah, you can also use Arch Rollback Machine to get rc scripts from older packages.


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#3 2012-11-19 15:52:43

dolby
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From: 1992
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 1,581

Re: Arch linux without Systemd

systemD is much more than the rc scripts. Are you gonna be replacing the other parts as well or your only issue is with systemD's service files?


There shouldn't be any reason to learn more editor types than emacs or vi -- mg (1)
[You learn that sarcasm does not often work well in international forums.  That is why we avoid it. -- ewaller (arch linux forum moderator)

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#4 2012-11-19 16:03:39

0mark
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From: earth
Registered: 2010-06-09
Posts: 139
Website

Re: Arch linux without Systemd

My issue is that systemd is that systemd tries to be everything. Thats just broken, especially in a kiss distribution. Apart from that, systemd is breaking one of my systems by crashing 8 out of ten boots. Also umts does only work with sysv init.

I would love to get systemd replaced by the old services or even nothing (i do not want logind and such stuff). I know that udev without systemd is not supported anymore, but there is at least a gentoo project to cope with that.


Ceterum autem censeo Systemdinem esse delendam

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#5 2012-11-19 16:09:21

karol
Archivist
Registered: 2009-05-06
Posts: 25,431

Re: Arch linux without Systemd

It may be easier to switch distributions if you want to have it your way.

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#6 2012-11-19 16:28:52

Gusar
Member
Registered: 2009-08-25
Posts: 3,466

Re: Arch linux without Systemd

0mark wrote:

I know that udev without systemd is not supported anymore

That is completely false, it is very much supported. (no need to link to that infamous post by Lennart - it does not say what you're claiming here).

As for rc scripts, if there won't be an "official" repo where Arch devs will put scripts in as they remove them from packages, someone else will need to create a repo and collect rc scripts into it. And for initscripts themselves, there's https://projects.archlinux.org/initscripts.git/

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#7 2012-11-19 16:30:13

marvn
Member
From: Prague
Registered: 2010-01-05
Posts: 83

Re: Arch linux without Systemd

0mark wrote:

My issue is that systemd is that systemd tries to be everything. Thats just broken, especially in a kiss distribution. Apart from that, systemd is breaking one of my systems by crashing 8 out of ten boots. Also umts does only work with sysv init.

I would love to get systemd replaced by the old services or even nothing (i do not want logind and such stuff). I know that udev without systemd is not supported anymore, but there is at least a gentoo project to cope with that.

there have been a lot of discussions on the topic, so mods will probably close this thread soon. you can search the forum, but karols's solution is imho best for you as (again imho) you don't quite know what are you talking about...


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#8 2012-11-19 17:02:49

tomk
Forum Fellow
From: Ireland
Registered: 2004-07-21
Posts: 9,838

Re: Arch linux without Systemd

0mark, tomegun has provided very detailed guidelines for anyone who is interested in using/maintaining the legacy initscripts, if you're enthusiastic enough.

For the sake of completeness, I suppose I should also mention that there's a strong anti-systemd element among Archbang users, so it's possible you would get a more sympathetic response there.

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#9 2012-11-19 18:01:42

jasonwryan
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From: .nz
Registered: 2009-05-09
Posts: 19,076
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Re: Arch linux without Systemd

There is also a couple of threads in Community Contributions about alternate init systems: ignite and OpenRC
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=148747
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=152606&p=1


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#10 2012-11-20 02:11:17

hussam
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Registered: 2006-03-26
Posts: 525
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Re: Arch linux without Systemd

0mark wrote:

My issue is that systemd is that systemd tries to be everything. Thats just broken, especially in a kiss distribution. Apart from that, systemd is breaking one of my systems by crashing 8 out of ten boots. Also umts does only work with sysv init.

I would love to get systemd replaced by the old services or even nothing (i do not want logind and such stuff). I know that udev without systemd is not supported anymore, but there is at least a gentoo project to cope with that.

well technically if upstream starts to provide systemd unit files for different applications, using an alternative init system (other than systemd) wouldn't be KISS either ;)
Personally I don't see systemd to be against KISS philosophy.

Last edited by hussam (2012-11-20 02:13:30)

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#11 2012-11-20 02:41:30

dolby
Member
From: 1992
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 1,581

Re: Arch linux without Systemd

hussam wrote:

well technically if upstream starts to provide systemd unit files for different applications, using an alternative init system (other than systemd) wouldn't be KISS either wink
Personally I don't see systemd to be against KISS philosophy.

Entirely offtopic. I remember when uzbl was announced in the suckless mailing list and people started asking how is it possible that it adheres to the unix philosophy when its written in bash..


There shouldn't be any reason to learn more editor types than emacs or vi -- mg (1)
[You learn that sarcasm does not often work well in international forums.  That is why we avoid it. -- ewaller (arch linux forum moderator)

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#12 2012-11-20 07:55:15

0mark
Member
From: earth
Registered: 2010-06-09
Posts: 139
Website

Re: Arch linux without Systemd

Gusar wrote:
0mark wrote:

I know that udev without systemd is not supported anymore

That is completely false, it is very much supported. (no need to link to that infamous post by Lennart - it does not say what you're claiming here).

I read this http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/s … 06066.html and you are right, its not exactly the same. But i just wantet to say that i know that there might be problems ahead when using udev standalone.

@Gusar, tomk: Thanks, that looks like good starting point. Although i will probably not being enthusiastical enough to really put something up, i will at least try smile

@karol: Im already taking a look around, but i would rather keep arch. I think crux might be a good idea, or this archbang mentioned earlier.

@jasonwryan: I will try them, thanks.


Ceterum autem censeo Systemdinem esse delendam

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#13 2012-11-21 15:34:14

ANOKNUSA
Member
Registered: 2010-10-22
Posts: 2,141

Re: Arch linux without Systemd

Though I'm a happy systemd user (it need not "be everything," even if some of its devs want it to be; it's more modular than it appears at first), I'd throw my hat in for OpenRC.  It's more mature and actively developed, likely has better documentation, and (near as I can tell) doesn't depend on official Arch packages to function.

tomk wrote:

<snip>there's a strong anti-systemd element among Archbang users<snip>

Every time I'm reminded of this, I chuckle a little inside.

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#14 2012-11-21 16:46:35

WonderWoofy
Member
From: Los Gatos, CA
Registered: 2012-05-19
Posts: 8,412

Re: Arch linux without Systemd

ANOKNUSA, I too am a happy systemd user.  Like you said, you don't have to use everything, and it really is quite modular.  But about the "better documentation" thing, I am pretty sure that open-rc probably has some excellent documentation, as it has been around for some time.  But have you checked out all the documentation included with systemd?  I would say that it is one of the best documented young software I have ever seen.

ANOKNUSA wrote:
tomk wrote:

<snip>there's a strong anti-systemd element among Archbang users<snip>

Every time I'm reminded of this, I chuckle a little inside.

I too find this rather amusing.  I really don't know how they are going to do this, since they really don't develop much of anything.

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#15 2012-11-21 17:25:33

89c51
Member
Registered: 2012-06-05
Posts: 659

Re: Arch linux without Systemd

Are packages that were rendered "obsolete" (syslog) with systemd going to be moved from base after january???

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#16 2012-11-21 17:32:27

googol-1
Member
Registered: 2012-10-21
Posts: 22

Re: Arch linux without Systemd

syslog-ng has been removed from base a while ago.
https://projects.archlinux.org/svntogit … /syslog-ng

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#17 2012-11-21 17:34:30

Jristz
Member
From: America/Santiago
Registered: 2011-06-11
Posts: 921

Re: Arch linux without Systemd

89c51 wrote:

Are packages that were rendered "obsolete" (syslog) with systemd going to be moved from base after january???

probably the only one is initscripts and all the rc files on the packages at day

personally I prefer move all those rc files to a unique package and these package move to AUR alongside initscripts, probably this is more best than simply remove it forever (wath happen if any AUR user want thest initscript on support in on AUR, without rc filee they need spend owr in search every internet place in found of the missing rc for a proyect specific???


Well, I suppose that this is somekind of signature, no?

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#18 2012-11-21 18:02:15

89c51
Member
Registered: 2012-06-05
Posts: 659

Re: Arch linux without Systemd

googol-1 wrote:

syslog-ng has been removed from base a while ago.
https://projects.archlinux.org/svntogit … /syslog-ng

Yes bad example. I was looking at logrotate and cronie which don't seem -to ignorant me at least- to be needed. At least nothing requires them on my system.

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#19 2012-11-21 23:29:17

ngoonee
Forum Fellow
From: Between Thailand and Singapore
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 6,839

Re: Arch linux without Systemd

Jristz wrote:

personally I prefer move all those rc files to a unique package and these package move to AUR alongside initscripts, probably this is more best than simply remove it forever (wath happen if any AUR user want thest initscript on support in on AUR, without rc filee they need spend owr in search every internet place in found of the missing rc for a proyect specific???

Have you even read [arch-general] and [arch-dev-public] on the subject?


Allan-Volunteer on the (topic being discussed) mailn lists. You never get the people who matters attention on the forums.
jasonwryan-Installing Arch is a measure of your literacy. Maintaining Arch is a measure of your diligence. Contributing to Arch is a measure of your competence.
Griemak-Bleeding edge, not bleeding flat. Edge denotes falls will occur from time to time. Bring your own parachute.

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#20 2012-11-22 12:40:13

brain0
Developer
From: Aachen - Germany
Registered: 2005-01-03
Posts: 1,382

Re: Arch linux without Systemd

89c51 wrote:

Yes bad example. I was looking at logrotate and cronie which don't seem -to ignorant me at least- to be needed. At least nothing requires them on my system.

Many package require a cron daemon, and systemd does not offer the full functionality of cron. The same with logrotate: I still have log files in /var/log/ (for example, from apache) that need rotation. I guess neither of those packages is going away.

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#21 2012-11-22 16:08:25

ANOKNUSA
Member
Registered: 2010-10-22
Posts: 2,141

Re: Arch linux without Systemd

WonderWoofy wrote:

I too find this rather amusing.  I really don't know how they are going to do this, since they really don't develop much of anything.

I get the feeling it's just their way of asserting independence.  Archbang was introduced to (ostensibly) "solve" the "problems" Arch was perceived to have.  This is just another way for them to set themselves apart.  I don't really understand it myself, as the kind of person who would prefer Archbang to vanilla Arch wouldn't notice the difference anyway; it would just become part of their installation image, and new users would have systemd by default without any hassle (which is precisely what they want, isn't it?).

@89c51: syslog-ng may not be part of the base group anymore, but you can still use it in place of the systemd journal if you like.

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#22 2012-11-22 16:18:57

ZekeSulastin
Member
Registered: 2010-09-20
Posts: 266

Re: Arch linux without Systemd

ANOKNUSA wrote:

@89c51: syslog-ng may not be part of the base group anymore, but you can still use it in place of the systemd journal if you like.

Technically alongside the systemd journal - you can tell journald to forward logs to syslog while neither writing to disk nor keeping a journal in RAM, but journald will still be running as systemd itself wants it.

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#23 2012-11-22 16:25:25

tomk
Forum Fellow
From: Ireland
Registered: 2004-07-21
Posts: 9,838

Re: Arch linux without Systemd

As I brought it up initially, I'll just add that Archbang uses systemd, as per their latest iso announcement. However, they also have a "SystemD free projects" board in their forum, where the aforementioned anti-systemd element seem to congregate.

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#24 2012-11-22 17:20:44

MadTux
Member
Registered: 2009-09-20
Posts: 553

Re: Arch linux without Systemd

tomk wrote:

As I brought it up initially, I'll just add that Archbang uses systemd, as per their latest iso announcement.

I've tried one of the latest November pre-release images and it came completely with a pure systemd configuration.

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#25 2012-11-23 07:34:34

WonderWoofy
Member
From: Los Gatos, CA
Registered: 2012-05-19
Posts: 8,412

Re: Arch linux without Systemd

tomk wrote:

As I brought it up initially, I'll just add that Archbang uses systemd, as per their latest iso announcement. However, they also have a "SystemD free projects" board in their forum, where the aforementioned anti-systemd element seem to congregate.

I find this incredibly amusing... I guess they can't develop their own stuff.

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