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#1 2013-03-04 09:06:04

nponeccop
Member
Registered: 2011-09-05
Posts: 14

Is base group an implicit optional dependency?

I found that many packages carefully specify their dependencies on separate packages in `base` group.

However `pacdiff` utility from `pacman-contrib` package doesn't work without `diffutils` package. I filed a bug but got it closed because diffutils is in the base group.

I could not find the permission not to put optional deps on base in the documentation. Can someone point me out?

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#2 2013-03-04 09:11:51

tdy
Member
From: Sacremende
Registered: 2008-12-14
Posts: 438

Re: Is base group an implicit optional dependency?

I don't know if it's documented in writing, but you can just accept it. "base" is assumed in general, and "base-devel" is assumed when using makepkg.


dots (or just the awesomewm config)

$ whatis this?
this?: nothing appropriate.

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#3 2013-03-04 09:25:37

nponeccop
Member
Registered: 2011-09-05
Posts: 14

Re: Is base group an implicit optional dependency?

> "base-devel" is assumed when using makepkg.

Yes, and it is documented in https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PKGBUILD

> "base" is assumed in general

Yes, but doesn't seem to apply to packaging. For example, coreutils is supposed to have no dependencies at all but it has a crazily detailed `pactree`. Even `pacstrap /mnt systemd` produces surprisingly working rootfs, so it seems many people care about dependencies on `base`.

So the rule of ignoring `base` in certain cases, if it exists, should be more detailed and worth documenting.

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#4 2013-03-04 09:33:51

Awebb
Member
Registered: 2010-05-06
Posts: 4,180

Re: Is base group an implicit optional dependency?

And yet there are some packages depending on diffutils: https://www.archlinux.org/packages/core/i686/diffutils/. Logic would dictate to remove those dependencies as well. On the other hand, it is a pretty normal thing for a package to depend on a member of the base group.

However, a short google query for "arch linux base group dependency" brought up this:

Note: Before complaining about missing (make) dependencies, remember that the base group is assumed to be installed on all Arch Linux systems. The group "base-devel" is assumed to be installed when building with makepkg.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Makepkg

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#5 2013-03-04 10:36:13

nponeccop
Member
Registered: 2011-09-05
Posts: 14

Re: Is base group an implicit optional dependency?

Your google-fu is better than mine smile

It doesn't seem that "no dependency on base" policy is followed closely. I wonder if there are any packages which don't specify dependencies on `base` explicitly. And `napcap` complains if deps on base exist but not specified.

Should I made the policy explicit by editing wiki and adding "no deps on base" everywhere "no makedeps on base-devel" is specified? I think such policy applied to packages in `base` will break everything.

On the other hand, is "we don't care but you can omit deps on base should you wish" an acceptable packaging policy?

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#6 2013-03-04 11:05:40

tdy
Member
From: Sacremende
Registered: 2008-12-14
Posts: 438

Re: Is base group an implicit optional dependency?

nponeccop wrote:

On the other hand, is "we don't care but you can omit deps on base should you wish" an acceptable packaging policy?

I'm pretty sure this is the de facto standard. You shouldn't run into anyone who freaks out on you b/c you did or didn't include glibc, bash, etc.

"Install base-devel before using makepkg" has been in the wiki for years, but people will keep flagging your packages out of date and post comments like "needed pkgconfig to build, please add to makedepends." Sometimes I'll just include some base-devel makedeps just to deal with less hassle..


dots (or just the awesomewm config)

$ whatis this?
this?: nothing appropriate.

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#7 2013-03-04 11:07:15

Awebb
Member
Registered: 2010-05-06
Posts: 4,180

Re: Is base group an implicit optional dependency?

nponeccop wrote:

On the other hand, is "we don't care but you can omit deps on base should you wish" an acceptable packaging policy?

I think it is time to ask this on the mailing list. While Allan can be seen here very often, you have a higher chance of success there, where other package maintainers read more vigilantly. But ultimately, I think you are just over-complicating the issue.

Basically, you, as a user, do not create packages for Arch, so your only concern might be the AUR. I would, with no doubt, add every single relevant ("first level") dependency to any PKGBUILD I upload, no matter where the package is. The same is the case for all the packages in all the repositories, if the absence of X would break Y, add X to the deps. Then again, the base group is assumed to be installed on every Arch system (although the current installer allows a more fine-tuned setup), so if a package is missing a dependency in the base group, it is not considered to be a big deal. It does not mean, that such a package should not be added to the deps, it just means, that you are not supposed to create a bug report just for that, because every bug report means valuable time going down the river.

We could now start to argue, that the current Arch installer allows for a base group free Arch without removing a single package post-install. This would mean, that the presence of the entire base group can no longer be assumed and adding the dependencies in base would suddenly make more sense. Discussing this here, on the other hand, instead of the appropriate mailing list, would not.

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#8 2013-03-04 11:58:19

Trilby
Forum Moderator
From: Massachusetts, USA
Registered: 2011-11-29
Posts: 13,700
Website

Re: Is base group an implicit optional dependency?

A related question may be how static are base / base-devel group memberships.  In otherwords, do packages occasionally get added or removed from these groups?

Packages occasionally move from the aur to [community] and other occasionally drop from any of the repos to aur ... or to pergatory.  If base/base-devel package lists occasionally change, one might write a PKGBUILD not listing a dependency because it is part of base, only to have it later dropped from base; or vice versa.


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#9 2013-03-04 12:12:57

nponeccop
Member
Registered: 2011-09-05
Posts: 14

Re: Is base group an implicit optional dependency?

Awebb wrote:

you are not supposed to create a bug report just for that, because every bug report means valuable time going down the river.

Point taken

tdy wrote:

"Install base-devel before using makepkg" has been in the wiki for years

|base-devel and makedepends is different from base and depends. I understand rationale behind the former: you have to have a heavyweight system to build packages.

Anyway, thank you for explanation. All I wanted to know is that having a missing base dependency is considered normal by more than one person.

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#10 2013-03-04 15:37:46

karol
Archivist
Registered: 2009-05-06
Posts: 25,427

Re: Is base group an implicit optional dependency?

https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/25178 comment sums it up nicely: you don't have to have every package from 'base' group installed, but you deal with the consequences.

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