wmi vs ion, tiling WMs and WM zealotry

Dusty · 2005-12-05 15:50:33

thread-hijack time....

Anybody looked at the wmii-3 snapshots? Sounds like they changed everything again. I have a couple complaints with pek now, but both of them are just bug/cosmetic, I still love the way it works and is configured. Didn't know it was out of development though. :-(

Dusty

codemac · 2005-12-06 08:19:11

I'm gonna make a suggestion for dtw, use a wm that doesn't focus on use of a mouse.

Ion is the one I use, and I think phrakture was a ratpoison user. The draw to using a mouseless and frame/tile/whatever you call it based WM is efficiency of movement between apps, and full usage of that gorgeous screen. Ion is friendlier to those first using it, and I think is much more customizable. Ratpoison is focused less on usability and more on the theory it's based on. I used it for a month, but couldn't take it after a while. Ion is a lot friendlier with applications that don't like frames/tiles too. Oh, and if you try Ion, use Ion3 even though it's labelled as development. It's extremely stable.

and of course, the obligatory screen shot.

As you can see, I'm whoring on the forums for the time being ..

Dusty · 2005-12-06 16:07:13

No offence, but a lot of archrs have made similar posts in the past. We tend to be attracted to the tiled window managers. My problem with all of them is that they seem to be 'minimalist' window managers. For some reason, nobody has tried to make a tiled window manager that was also feature rich. That's why I like pekwm (I've used ratpoison, ion, and both versions of wmi, so I know what I'm comparing to). The best things about pekwm are the following:

autoproperties -- you can set up windows to always open in the same position on the same desktop
fill-available space -- you can use a key or mouse click to make the window take up all space.

By combining these, I get the full effect of a tiled window manager -- full utilization of the screen -- without the limitations taht they impose. All of the tiled window managers I've seen have lists of 'broken apps' on there pages. They blame the application developers, but IMHO its not up to application developers to code window management functions. ;-)

An ideal window manager would be one that *provided* a bit more support for tiling than pekwm does, but does not *enforce* tiling layouts the way the tiling managers do. I know you can get away from the enforced tiling but you have to work to do it. It should be possible to design a wm that basically provides seamless choices between the two options.

Of course, that's the HCI coming out in me, I want both efficiency and usability.... ;-)

Dusty

codemac · 2005-12-06 23:11:45

Dusty wrote:

autoproperties -- you can set up windows to always open in the same position on the same desktop

Those are called kludges in Ion. It's the same thing. They go in the same frame every time the launch.

Dusty wrote:

fill-available space -- you can use a key or mouse click to make the window take up all space.

Um... Ion already does that.

Dusty wrote:

By combining these, I get the full effect of a tiled window manager -- full utilization of the screen -- without the limitations taht they impose.

In Ion, you create floats. Pop up notifications appear as a normal window would in any other manager, floating above all other windows. There is also something called a Float Workspace that creates a workspace that is all floats. Basically a workspace that works with windows as you would expect them to work in any other WM. And you can set up those kludges so that whenever I start up Gimp, it automatically creates a float workspace, and puts the whole app in floats in it.

Basically, wmi is not Ion and you shouldn't base your opinions of tiled window managers off of wmi. In my experiences it's limited, and the only "feature" it has is keybindings like Vi, but then you could just set that up in ratpoison or Ion if you wanted.

Dusty wrote:

My problem with all of them is that they seem to be 'minimalist' window managers.

Ratpoison is great if you want something crazy minimalistic. Ion on the other hand is not minimal.

Here is a screen shot of what you think Ion can't do:

SleepyDog · 2005-12-07 02:02:17

I'm sure Dusty is aware of what Ion can and can't do. Ion's biggest falt, IMO, is the lua configuration. I just don't like working with Lua.

but IMHO its not up to application developers to code window management functions. Wink

Indeed, but if you look at the broken apps, most of them *are* coding window management functions. Like setting a fixed window size, etc. That's why they're broken.

wmii-3 is gonna be great. A snapshot was supposed to come out yesterday, and the wmii-3 release is scheduled for Christmas (meaning it will come out around mid January ). I think, once the virtual filesystem is refined, adding features such as grouping outside the core code will be easy. It won't be feature rich, but feature opportunity rich (if that makes any sense.) Also, the main coder religiously cuts cruft off of every release, so it's a very efficient WM. Plus, the idea of mounting the virtual filesystem under any directory and configuring it with echo and cat makes me giddy

Dusty · 2005-12-07 03:28:56

SleepyDog wrote:

I'm sure Dusty is aware of what Ion can and can't do.

Yes, IIRC it was me that first introduced ion to the arch community... I'm sure my first post on it would be one of the earlier ones. That was back in the days of ion2 though.

Ion's biggest falt, IMO, is the lua configuration. I just don't like working with Lua.

Oh yeah, that's actually the mai reason I don't use it, now that you remind me.

Another nice thing about pek is the pretty graphical borders and such. I know ion2 didn't support that and I doubt ion3 does. That's what I mean about minimalistic -- there's no tiled wm that has much in terms of pretty effects.

The workarounds you describe for setting up floating workspaces are great, but they still take a bit of time to a) configure and b) enable each time. The thing I like about pekwm is that it more or less gives me the best of both worlds *seamlessly*. By ion4, perhaps it will be more what I am thinking of. But by then, e17 might be a reality and I'm sure I'll be using that....

Dusty

codemac · 2005-12-07 09:35:42

Dusty wrote:

Another nice thing about pek is the pretty graphical borders and such. I know ion2 didn't support that and I doubt ion3 does. That's what I mean about minimalistic -- there's no tiled wm that has much in terms of pretty effects.

True. If appearance is what you were talking about when you said minimal, then Ion is minimal.

I'll calm down about trying to prove Ion can do everything, and better than a swiss knife, but I'm quite the Ion fanboy ( as was made obvious from the previous posts ).

Does pekwm do tabs? I think I ought to try it out.

Dusty · 2005-12-07 16:31:23

pek doesn't call it tabbing but you can put more than one client in any one frame.

I'm not a pekwm zealot, I've been zealotic about too many window managers now. They all have strengths, but more importantly, they all have weaknesses. That's what really bugs me. To be honest, if Ion was configured in python I'd probably be using it. On the other hand, if vim was configured in python I'd probably be using it too instead of trying to develop magnum. ;-)

Dusty

phrakture · 2005-12-07 16:41:09

Dusty wrote:

I'm not a pekwm zealot, I've been zealotic about too many window managers now. They all have strengths, but more importantly, they all have weaknesses. That's what really bugs me. To be honest, if Ion was configured in python I'd probably be using it. On the other hand, if vim was configured in python I'd probably be using it too instead of trying to develop magnum. ;-)

Uh oh, I see a "all WMs have weaknesses" statement, but then some python zealotry - shouldn't that extend to "all programming languages have their weaknesses"? And for the record, you can write python on vim scripts, as long as vim is compiled with +python

codemac · 2005-12-07 19:58:35

PWNT!

Dusty · 2005-12-08 02:35:46

rofl

python has no weakness! mwah!!

Dusty

gunnix · 2005-12-08 16:27:59

Me I also used ion3 and wmii, after I got bored of flux and openbox. At first I found ion3 fantastic, only after configuring it to my liking because the default keybinds suck..., but when I upgraded ion3 suddenly parts of my configuration didn't work anymore. So I dropped it like a stone because I'm not going to configure in lua more then once!

Then I suddenly liked wmii a lot.. the default keybinds are very good. I love them. But it's to slow and also quite hard to configure.

And then I started using ratpoison. I changed the cfg so that my right windows key is the same as ctrl+t. And in screen my left windows key is the same as ctrl+a. I think ratpoison works great. But they really should add some support for the mouse I think. Like if scrolling with mouse at the side of the screen could switch apps that would be great.

Besides ratpoison I use icewm when I feel like it, and I let anyone who uses my computers use icewm as well. It's very good.

greetz,
gunnix

xerxes2 · 2005-12-09 02:13:28

dusty hunny, ion3 makes everything you're looking for

disclaimer: i'm an ion zealot

postlogic · 2005-12-09 15:54:56

I've played around with wmii-2 lately, and found that it did have a lot of issues. It even crashed when I ran blender once. I certainly hope wmii-3 will have better handling of floating apps.

IMHO, it seems they are too quick to judge other apps by calling them broken when all they require is basic floating. :-p

phrakture · 2005-12-09 16:23:25

never fear, when wmii3 is released, I will package it (and 9base) and put it in [community] - right now I'm only watching official releases, and even Anslem will admit that wmii-2 was bug-ridden. IIRC, there are PKGBUILDs for the snapshots in the AUR.

postlogic · 2005-12-10 11:08:16

phrakture wrote:

there are PKGBUILDs for the snapshots in the AUR.

Yeah, I tried compiling those. 9port would never compile for some reason :evil:

phrakture · 2005-12-11 02:24:17

Slightly OT:
I have defeated gimp in ratpoison - i combined all the crap from both of the "side" windows into one window. Then it works easilly with one split

NME · 2005-12-11 23:57:49

phrakture wrote:

Slightly OT:
I have defeated gimp in ratpoison - i combined all the crap from both of the "side" windows into one window. Then it works easilly with one split
[URL=http://img203.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot200512101917234rr.png][/URL]

I don't mean to b# but wasn't the whole tiling-wm-idea about not having to worry about managing windows... ?

i use ion3 on my headless irssi/fileserver box, it works great with terminals but i hate using it with GUIs

phrakture · 2005-12-12 00:03:55

NME wrote:

I don't mean to b#

I have no idea what that means.

NME wrote:

but wasn't the whole tiling-wm-idea about not having to worry about managing windows... ?

Yes, I agree - and the app which causes the single most complaints for tiling wm users is the gimp - what I've done is reduced it to 2 windows (the normal is 3), which persists from session to session. After that a simple split and I mark the tool window "dedicated" so that new windows open in the larger frame. The nice thing about ratpoison is that you can dump the frame settings and restore them later - so I now have a keybinding which restores my "gimp settings"

gunnix · 2005-12-13 15:55:19

Nice phrakture. I might want to know how you exactly did it when I'll use gimp in ratpoison. Luckily I never needed it

Arch Linux

#1 2005-12-05 15:50:33

wmi vs ion, tiling WMs and WM zealotry

#2 2005-12-06 08:19:11

Re: wmi vs ion, tiling WMs and WM zealotry

#3 2005-12-06 16:07:13

Re: wmi vs ion, tiling WMs and WM zealotry

#4 2005-12-06 23:11:45

Re: wmi vs ion, tiling WMs and WM zealotry

#5 2005-12-07 02:02:17

Re: wmi vs ion, tiling WMs and WM zealotry

#6 2005-12-07 03:28:56

Re: wmi vs ion, tiling WMs and WM zealotry

#7 2005-12-07 09:35:42

Re: wmi vs ion, tiling WMs and WM zealotry

#8 2005-12-07 16:31:23

Re: wmi vs ion, tiling WMs and WM zealotry

#9 2005-12-07 16:41:09

Re: wmi vs ion, tiling WMs and WM zealotry

#10 2005-12-07 19:58:35

Re: wmi vs ion, tiling WMs and WM zealotry

#11 2005-12-08 02:35:46

Re: wmi vs ion, tiling WMs and WM zealotry

#12 2005-12-08 16:27:59

Re: wmi vs ion, tiling WMs and WM zealotry

#13 2005-12-09 02:13:28

Re: wmi vs ion, tiling WMs and WM zealotry

#14 2005-12-09 15:54:56

Re: wmi vs ion, tiling WMs and WM zealotry

#15 2005-12-09 16:23:25

Re: wmi vs ion, tiling WMs and WM zealotry

#16 2005-12-10 11:08:16

Re: wmi vs ion, tiling WMs and WM zealotry

#17 2005-12-11 02:24:17

Re: wmi vs ion, tiling WMs and WM zealotry

#18 2005-12-11 23:57:49

Re: wmi vs ion, tiling WMs and WM zealotry

#19 2005-12-12 00:03:55

Re: wmi vs ion, tiling WMs and WM zealotry

#20 2005-12-13 15:55:19

Re: wmi vs ion, tiling WMs and WM zealotry

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