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#1 2005-12-09 16:35:36

Dusty
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YALD (Yet Another Language Debate) - split from Jacman

arooaroo wrote:

Now, let's get some perspective. If I was asked to write a Hello World program, I wouldn't write it in Java. But, if I was asked to make a complex GUI, then I would.

Hmm... Having extensive experience with swing and a little experience with PyGTK... I think I'd seriously suggest GTK. Its cleaner. I say this with some hesitation though, because I think Swing is probably the absolute best thing about Java (or maybe its their threading/concurrency APIs).  I like the MVC setup in Swing, its relatively elegant for Java. But still, I think GTK is more elegant.... at least in Python it is. Of course, I'd probably prefer Java/Swing over C/GTK, come to think of it.

On an optimistic note, I do believe that Sun will open source their Java implementation - although it may take a year or two.

Yeah, they're going to have to completely open source it if they want to compete with C#. A can't believe how many people have jumped on the C# bandwagon, but it really does look like a nice language. Java took C++ and stripped out a lot of bullshit. C# took Java and stripped out more bullshit. Now Java is trying to put bullshit in instead of taking it out, so they're going backwards.

Of course there's always Visual Basic.

Dusty

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#2 2005-12-09 16:53:31

phrakture
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Re: YALD (Yet Another Language Debate) - split from Jacman

Dusty wrote:

Of course, I'd probably prefer Java/Swing over C/GTK, come to think of it.

GTK by itself kinda sucks.  However, gtkmm (the C++ wrapper) is pretty nice.

Dusty wrote:

A can't believe how many people have jumped on the C# bandwagon, but it really does look like a nice language. Java took C++ and stripped out a lot of bullshit. C# took Java and stripped out more bullshit. Now Java is trying to put bullshit in instead of taking it out, so they're going backwards.

Now, you had to expect a comment from me when you wrote this  big_smile

This is logged in ##C++ on freenode:

<ciaranm> c# is microsoft's version of java. java is sun's version of c++, aimed at idiots

While I wouldn't use the same language, I have to agree with the sentiment.  When sun created Java, they took one paradigm from C++ and created a language.  The problem is that C++ is a multiparadigm language.  It is in no way, shape, or form, an "Object Oriented Language".  Instead, C++ supports Object Oriented Programming.  It also supports structural programming (ala C), functional programming (ala Haskell), metaprogramming (this is unique), and a handful more that I can't think of.

Therefore, they did not "strip out the bullshit", the extracted a subset of what C++ can do.

For the record, I also agree that people jumping on the C# bandwagon is retarted.  People like C# so much because they can program like idiots (and I've seen it all).  It's the most complex thing to explain to someone that they need to explicitly close() a database connection. "But shouldn't it be done in the destructor?" - shut up.  My biggest complaint about the whole .NET crap is TheExtrememlyEnforced.VerbosityOfAllTheClasses.

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#3 2005-12-09 17:51:58

Dusty
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Re: YALD (Yet Another Language Debate) - split from Jacman

Ok, so we agree that C# is a piece of crap. We don't disagree terribly much about Java, although I say its a nicer language than you think it is.

Now tell me why anybody would ever want to code C++ over Python. I know you've coded both of them for various reasons. They have similarities in the 'multiparadigm' thing, though I've never heard that word used before now.

Dusty

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#4 2005-12-09 19:22:05

phrakture
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Re: YALD (Yet Another Language Debate) - split from Jacman

Dusty wrote:

Ok, so we agree that C# is a piece of crap. We don't disagree terribly much about Java, although I say its a nicer language than you think it is.

I never said it was a bad language - I just dislike the "Java is a better C++" arguments, because it's not - sure it might be better at OOP, I'll give Java that much, but the difference is minor.  However, in order to say something is "better than X" it has to support everything X supports - otherwise it's like saying "my car is better than your boat".

Dusty wrote:

Now tell me why anybody would ever want to code C++ over Python. I know you've coded both of them for various reasons.

Typical arguments aside - people say python is so awesome because of the small LOC to develop fairly complicated apps.  The same is true of C++, *assuming the proper wrappers*.  Now, I will admit that most wrapper libraries suck in this regard.  However, there are many good ones... for instance, compare the examples here:
http://www.dtilib.dk/documentation/database.asp
To some python database access stuff.  There's not much difference, and very little difference in LOC (maybe 10ish).  Even comparing it to SQLObject isn't all that bad, though SQLObject creates tables and does alot of stuff behind the scenes for you.

Dusty wrote:

They have similarities in the 'multiparadigm' thing, though I've never heard that word used before now.

From Bjarne's mouth: http://www.research.att.com/~bs/bs_faq. … tiparadigm

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#5 2005-12-09 21:59:54

phrakture
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Re: YALD (Yet Another Language Debate) - split from Jacman

Dusty? I was expecting more from you! You've failed! 8)

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#6 2005-12-09 22:41:28

Gullible Jones
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Re: YALD (Yet Another Language Debate) - split from Jacman

Wait a minute, isn't Java a bit of a different beast than C++? You know, automatic memory allocation, automatic garbage collection, and all that? A higher level language that's farther from the hardware?

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#7 2005-12-10 06:05:13

Dusty
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Re: YALD (Yet Another Language Debate) - split from Jacman

phrakture wrote:

Dusty? I was expecting more from you! You've failed! 8)

Sorry, Ive been hacking C code all day....

So you're saying 'better has to support everything the other one has'. But Model T Ford had a hand crank, and the new cars don't have hand cranks, does that mean Model T is better?

Dusty

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#8 2005-12-10 09:59:21

arooaroo
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Re: YALD (Yet Another Language Debate) - split from Jacman

I've never used C# although I've had a look a couple of times. Besides being a MS product, what's so bad about it?

The one thing I do like with .Net is how multiple languages are compiled down to the CLI bytecode and therefore you can easily get your C++ code talking to your Java code, which in turn can talk to your Python code...

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#9 2005-12-10 19:49:10

Dusty
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Re: YALD (Yet Another Language Debate) - split from Jacman

.Net supports python and Java?????

The same bytecode for different languages is a good idea in one way, since it allows people to collaborate using their favourite language. However, I think a project written in multiple languages is not the best of ideas, imagine maintaining it!? It would be better, I think if MS could decide on one language and support that. One practical (non-ideological) reason I don't use .NET is because I might end up having to maintain C#, C++, and VB code for various people.... trying to keep the similarities and differences between the languages straight in my head would be a nightmare.

On the other hand, if it was easy to reverse-engineer that bytecode into any of the .NET languages, taht would be the absolute coolest. Imagine if you could take somebody's program written in YourLeastFavouriteLanguage and convert it to a program written in your_favourite_language with the click of a single button. That would end these silly language debates AND I could always code in python! Perfect!!!

Dusty

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#10 2005-12-10 20:16:49

Gullible Jones
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Re: YALD (Yet Another Language Debate) - split from Jacman

Yea, that would be pure w00tness. 8) Unfortunately, knowing Microsoft, I doubt that's the case.

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#11 2005-12-10 21:12:08

arooaroo
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Re: YALD (Yet Another Language Debate) - split from Jacman

Dusty wrote:

.Net supports python and Java?????

.Net supports its Common Intermediate Language (CIL). Therefore, if you can a compiler for your language of choice that creates .net compatible bytecode, then it'll run. There exist many compilers, some by MS, some not. So, for Python, IronPython is a .net implementation. MS have even been working on functional language implementations: SML.net was a MS research project and F# is an OCaml-like language.

The Java support is slightly fishy. MS has its J# implementation, which is syntantically similar, but the API differs. Of course, you could use IKVM which is an independent Java implemention for .net, although I don't think it's APIs are that complete.

As for reverse engineering from CIL to LanguageOfChoice that would be cool. Who knows, someone could be working on such a thing.

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#12 2005-12-11 00:27:56

cactus
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Re: YALD (Yet Another Language Debate) - split from Jacman

the problem with reverse engineering bytecode to higher level code..is that the layout, variable names, and comments, are all lost.
it degrades to the worst possible compilable code. with all kinds of machine optimizations thrown in.

Think perl obfuscation competitions, and that is probably what it would look like. rofl


"Be conservative in what you send; be liberal in what you accept." -- Postel's Law
"tacos" -- Cactus' Law
"t̥͍͎̪̪͗a̴̻̩͈͚ͨc̠o̩̙͈ͫͅs͙͎̙͊ ͔͇̫̜t͎̳̀a̜̞̗ͩc̗͍͚o̲̯̿s̖̣̤̙͌ ̖̜̈ț̰̫͓ạ̪͖̳c̲͎͕̰̯̃̈o͉ͅs̪ͪ ̜̻̖̜͕" -- -̖͚̫̙̓-̺̠͇ͤ̃ ̜̪̜ͯZ͔̗̭̞ͪA̝͈̙͖̩L͉̠̺͓G̙̞̦͖O̳̗͍

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#13 2005-12-11 01:20:11

phrakture
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Re: YALD (Yet Another Language Debate) - split from Jacman

Dusty wrote:

So you're saying 'better has to support everything the other one has'. But Model T Ford had a hand crank, and the new cars don't have hand cranks, does that mean Model T is better?

No, because comparing the crank would be like comparing syntax - it's operational stuff and not functionality.  A Model T still "drives" and "steers" which is the function of a car.

And I wasn't trying to say that supporting more/different things makes one better - it just means you can only compare things based on what they have in common.  You can't tell a bald guy your hair style is better than his (except to be facetious)

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