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#1 2013-06-24 07:26:37

Gulver
Member
Registered: 2013-05-24
Posts: 208

Beginner's Guide, Eufi-GRUB

I was gonna improve the Beginner's Guide but realized that the GRUB section of UEFI motherboards has been removed. I've been lurking around forums and as far as I can tell that the most problems was because of insufficient optioning of grub-install commands. I did started using arch and also linux back in this month and the main grub page was all I needed while, beginner's guide only needed and option for root device which was noted in main grub page.

If that was the case, grub is easy and other distro users are familiar with it.

P.S.: I didn't know how to connect about it, If I'm posting anyway wrong please criticize.

Last edited by Gulver (2013-06-24 07:27:00)

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#2 2013-06-24 13:18:36

ANOKNUSA
Member
Registered: 2010-10-22
Posts: 2,141

Re: Beginner's Guide, Eufi-GRUB

Sorry, I'm having a little trouble understanding you.  Are you asking if it is alright to update the wiki? If so , you can always update a page if you know the information their to be incomplete or incorrect.  However, for the sake of brevity, the section in the Beginner's Guide on bootloaders is kept short, since their are several choices of bootloader and each requires a particular installation process for a given setup.  I wouldn't think any more information would be needed in the Beginner's Guide; the link to the GRUB page should be enough.

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#3 2013-06-24 17:02:57

Gulver
Member
Registered: 2013-05-24
Posts: 208

Re: Beginner's Guide, Eufi-GRUB

I'd also think it is better to link than left it deficient.

I remember that I wasn't able to setup rEFInd and the grub installation was only successful because of a single sentence I read in the GRUB main page.

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#4 2013-06-24 17:17:59

WonderWoofy
Member
From: Los Gatos, CA
Registered: 2012-05-19
Posts: 8,412

Re: Beginner's Guide, Eufi-GRUB

Yeah, it is hard to put al the neceessary information for evey possible scenario into the beginners guide.  This is why there is just a brief bit on a couple different options, as it is more of a way to give the installer an idea of options and lead them to where they can find more in depth information.  Grub, for example, is so terribly complex that you could never sufficiently put enough information in the beginners guide, and would likely have people either complaining that their edge case was not covered, or worse, trying to include information for every corner case into the beginners guide.

I am of the opinion that repeating information in the wiki should be avoided unless necessary.  The beginners guide is a prime example of a page that has to include quite a bit of information that could otherwise be found across the wiki, so it is best to try to keep it to just the basics.

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#5 2013-06-24 17:54:48

Gulver
Member
Registered: 2013-05-24
Posts: 208

Re: Beginner's Guide, Eufi-GRUB

I'm still trying to get to know the community yet. Thanks for the info and advices, I guess I can be more of a contributor after getting to know my way around.

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#6 2013-07-07 22:30:40

cfr
Member
From: Cymru
Registered: 2011-11-27
Posts: 5,661

Re: Beginner's Guide, Eufi-GRUB

The trouble is, the Beginners' Guide as it stands is not only misleading but outright wrong.

In the section on booting UEFI, it states:

For UEFI systems, two options are available. Choose one as per your convenience.

    Boot the Linux kernel directly using EFISTUB.
    gummiboot is a simple bootloader, useful if you are dual booting.

And then it explains how to set up direct loading using efibootmgr or gummiboot. Not only is there no mention of rEFInd, there is also no mention that grub can also boot in EFI mode. This is especially problematic given that the "two options" will not work on some hardware given the current issues with the EFISTUB loader.

While I agree that this page should cover only the basics and link to more in depth information, this hardly counts as giving the user a sense of the available options. There are links to grub on this page but only in the context of BIOS booting.

Last time I looked, the page did mention grub in EFI mode and covered rEFInd. Now it just looks like you are screwed if neither a EFI menu entry nor gummiboot works for you.

EDIT: It also claims that the ESP must be mounted at /boot. This is just false. It is true only for gummiboot and not even for the other option mentioned on this page.

Last edited by cfr (2013-07-07 22:32:50)


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#7 2013-07-07 22:36:32

jasonwryan
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From: .nz
Registered: 2009-05-09
Posts: 18,054
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Re: Beginner's Guide, Eufi-GRUB

cfr wrote:

The trouble is, the Beginners' Guide as it stands is not only misleading but outright wrong.

Would you be able to knock it into shape? Anything that contributes to reducing the amount of confusion around this would be much appreciated.


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#8 2013-07-07 22:54:12

cfr
Member
From: Cymru
Registered: 2011-11-27
Posts: 5,661

Re: Beginner's Guide, Eufi-GRUB

jasonwryan wrote:
cfr wrote:

The trouble is, the Beginners' Guide as it stands is not only misleading but outright wrong.

Would you be able to knock it into shape? Anything that contributes to reducing the amount of confusion around this would be much appreciated.

Funny you should mention that.

Can somebody see what they think of my edits?

There is something weird about this section of the guide. It goes into great deal about how to work around quite particular issues in very particular ways and does not even link to other relevant information. For example, it mentions the EFI/Microsoft/Boot/bootmgfw.efi work around but not the EFI/boot/bootx64.efi one. Right now I've left this as it is. On the one hand, I don't want to just add more special cases. On the other, I'm reluctant to delete information which might have been added for good reason.

Is there a particular reason we now recommend direct boot entry or gummiboot rather than rEFInd, for example? I admit that I am partisan here: I object to gummiboot's automatically reconfiguring my system on installation, especially to the fact that it overwrites the default bootloader. I don't think software should do that sort of thing (which is why I refuse to install it).


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#9 2013-07-07 23:26:29

WonderWoofy
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From: Los Gatos, CA
Registered: 2012-05-19
Posts: 8,412

Re: Beginner's Guide, Eufi-GRUB

I just went through the history of the page, and I feel like the beginners guide in its current form could not have come from only four edits.

Last edited by WonderWoofy (2013-07-07 23:32:18)

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#10 2013-07-07 23:27:56

2ManyDogs
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Registered: 2012-01-15
Posts: 1,631

Re: Beginner's Guide, Eufi-GRUB

What does the "History" show for the BG page?

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#11 2013-07-07 23:32:42

WonderWoofy
Member
From: Los Gatos, CA
Registered: 2012-05-19
Posts: 8,412

Re: Beginner's Guide, Eufi-GRUB

I just removed my post and wrote something entirely different...

Edit: Okay maybe not four total... but there are four edits for this year...
Edit: Sorry, five... I cannot count.

Last edited by WonderWoofy (2013-07-07 23:37:18)

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#12 2013-07-07 23:44:16

cfr
Member
From: Cymru
Registered: 2011-11-27
Posts: 5,661

Re: Beginner's Guide, Eufi-GRUB

I thought the same - especially given the size of those changes. What happened to the discussion of rEFInd, for example? I was looking to see what message accompanied the changes but I can't identify where the changes occurred.

EDIT: Something very odd. It does not show my edits even though I completed them a few minutes ago and even though the current version of the page includes changes I made. Also, I note that I did include a message explaining the edits and I did not mark the change as a minor one.

Last edited by cfr (2013-07-07 23:47:26)


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#13 2013-07-07 23:50:46

WonderWoofy
Member
From: Los Gatos, CA
Registered: 2012-05-19
Posts: 8,412

Re: Beginner's Guide, Eufi-GRUB

Yeah... I know for certain that I have made a couple edits to that page, so I am not sure where all that info has gone.

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#14 2013-07-07 23:53:58

cfr
Member
From: Cymru
Registered: 2011-11-27
Posts: 5,661

Re: Beginner's Guide, Eufi-GRUB


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#15 2013-07-08 00:00:21

WonderWoofy
Member
From: Los Gatos, CA
Registered: 2012-05-19
Posts: 8,412

Re: Beginner's Guide, Eufi-GRUB

Wait so that guy just basically gutted the section?!?!  Also how did you get to all that history?

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#16 2013-07-08 00:05:19

cfr
Member
From: Cymru
Registered: 2011-11-27
Posts: 5,661

Re: Beginner's Guide, Eufi-GRUB

Dislikeyou has systematically removed anything other than gummiboot/EFISTUB. Every time somebody add something back in indicating there are other options, Dislikeyou deletes it. You can trace the history...

I got to the history by examining the source for the Beginners' Guide at https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?ti … ction=edit. Scroll down and you see that the page basically pulls in other pages. The history I pulled up is just for:

{{:Beginners' Guide/Installation}}

The question is: what happens in this case? If Dislikeyou is still around, I'm betting my edits won't last long and, even if they do, there is the question of the way the rest of that section has been edited to exclude other options and focus on particular points.

EDIT: Incidentally, the final two edits are mine but I couldn't use the same user name for the wiki so Margali there corresponds to cfr here.

Last edited by cfr (2013-07-08 00:07:07)


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#17 2013-07-08 00:08:52

WonderWoofy
Member
From: Los Gatos, CA
Registered: 2012-05-19
Posts: 8,412

Re: Beginner's Guide, Eufi-GRUB

Wow... Dislikeyou, I really dislike you.  That is some heavy trolling right there.  Who are the wiki maintainers? I am sure that they would not be to trilled to hear that they have a wiki troll. 

Come to think of it... I don't know who the wiki maintainers are, or how to find out who they are...


Edit: Go to the "News" section of the wiki and you can see that it is a very active group of maintainers.  In fact there was a maintainer added to the bunch less than one month ago.

Last edited by WonderWoofy (2013-07-08 00:11:54)

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#18 2013-07-08 00:13:09

2ManyDogs
Member
Registered: 2012-01-15
Posts: 1,631

Re: Beginner's Guide, Eufi-GRUB

cfr wrote:

The question is: what happens in this case? If Dislikeyou is still around, I'm betting my edits won't last long and, even if they do, there is the question of the way the rest of that section has been edited to exclude other options and focus on particular points.

You can add a note to the "discussion" section for that page about why you made the edits and why they should not be reverted. If that does not get the attention of Kynikos (or another wiki admin) you can try contacting him directly. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/User:Kynikos

This is not the first time something like this has happened to the BG, and unfortunately most likely won't be the last.

(edit) WonderWoofy, look here: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Ar … nistrators

Last edited by 2ManyDogs (2013-07-08 00:18:27)

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#19 2013-07-08 00:15:14

cfr
Member
From: Cymru
Registered: 2011-11-27
Posts: 5,661

Re: Beginner's Guide, Eufi-GRUB

Some of those deletions have even been marked as minor edits! See https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?ti … did=263884 which is marked with a 'b' in the history (for small - I can't remember what the English interface uses, sorry).


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#20 2013-07-08 00:24:56

jasonwryan
Forum & Wiki Admin
From: .nz
Registered: 2009-05-09
Posts: 18,054
Website

Re: Beginner's Guide, Eufi-GRUB

As 2ManyDogs says, leave a note on the discussion page. If your edit gets reverted, I'll lock the page and ping Kynikos.


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#21 2013-07-08 00:35:03

cfr
Member
From: Cymru
Registered: 2011-11-27
Posts: 5,661

Re: Beginner's Guide, Eufi-GRUB

2ManyDogs wrote:
cfr wrote:

The question is: what happens in this case? If Dislikeyou is still around, I'm betting my edits won't last long and, even if they do, there is the question of the way the rest of that section has been edited to exclude other options and focus on particular points.

You can add a note to the "discussion" section for that page about why you made the edits and why they should not be reverted. If that does not get the attention of Kynikos (or another wiki admin) you can try contacting him directly. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/User:Kynikos

Thanks. I've added this note to the talk page.


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#22 2013-07-08 00:46:53

2ManyDogs
Member
Registered: 2012-01-15
Posts: 1,631

Re: Beginner's Guide, Eufi-GRUB

cfr wrote:

Thanks. I've added this note to the talk page.

Excellent. You might also add a similar note to the discussion page for the specific section where you made the edits.
(edit) never mind -- I see that just directs you to start a new page at the root of the BG.

Last edited by 2ManyDogs (2013-07-08 00:48:45)

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#23 2013-07-08 09:08:40

the.ridikulus.rat
Member
From: Indiana, USA
Registered: 2011-10-04
Posts: 765

Re: Beginner's Guide, Eufi-GRUB

I suggest including info about both one EFISTUB based bootloader (gummiboot or refind, preferably gummiboot since that is in [core], and link to the UEFI_Bootloaders page for the other one) and about GRUB 2.XX (which uses traditional boot protocol, but that sometimes works where EFISTUB failed as it happened to cfr). I don't suggest including info about Syslinux 6.XX for now since it is very new and there are still some bugs to be fixed upstream.

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#24 2013-07-08 12:08:25

kynikos
Wiki Admin
Registered: 2010-12-28
Posts: 156

Re: Beginner's Guide, Eufi-GRUB

(I've invited Dislikeyou to participate here and/or in Talk:Beginners' Guide#Edits to UEFI booting. I can't follow this thread very closely, but I'll be subscribed to it, and if any moderation is required, like blocking the page or even some user, I will take action; don't hesitate to contact me for any reason smile However from now on I want to see whoever edits the Beginners' Guide (and possibly any other article) always use the Edit Summary field (the text field just above the Save page button): you are supposed to write there briefly what you've done and, even more importantly, why.)

WonderWoofy wrote:

Edit: Go to the "News" section of the wiki and you can see that it is a very active group of maintainers.  In fact there was a maintainer added to the bunch less than one month ago.

The addition of a member doesn't really give any hint on the "activity" of the team, unfortunately, if you know what I mean roll (any help is appreciated btw!)

Last edited by kynikos (2013-07-08 12:13:12)

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#25 2013-07-08 22:52:38

cfr
Member
From: Cymru
Registered: 2011-11-27
Posts: 5,661

Re: Beginner's Guide, Eufi-GRUB

the.ridikulus.rat wrote:

I suggest including info about both one EFISTUB based bootloader (gummiboot or refind, preferably gummiboot since that is in [core], and link to the UEFI_Bootloaders page for the other one) and about GRUB 2.XX (which uses traditional boot protocol, but that sometimes works where EFISTUB failed as it happened to cfr). I don't suggest including info about Syslinux 6.XX for now since it is very new and there are still some bugs to be fixed upstream.

This strikes me as a good proposal but I am not sure there is any consensus on the inclusion of grub given the discussion on the talk page which takes the need for this to be rare. I'm not in a position to judge how common this particular bug is since my knowledge of it is basically personal experience plus forum reports (but these are obviously selective: people bitten by the bug are more likely to show up here looking for help).

Is there any agreement that instructions for grub should be included? If so, is it possible to reintegrate the previous instructions, at least as a starting point?


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