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#1 2003-01-04 06:34:14

omega
Member
From: WA, US of A
Registered: 2002-12-26
Posts: 10

2 questions from a noob

Hello

I am trying to install arch.
It works but I have a problem.
Is there a way to install lilo to a paticular partition rather than mbr?
I am only familiar with grub (and gentoo install procedure, for that matter).

I have installed arch before, and I may have imagined it; but,  I think I actually got lilo onto /dev/hda9 once.
Is that even possible with the arch install console?

As for question #2...
Would it be possible for the arch install to set my bios clock back 8 hours?
My clock did absolutely change just now while I was installing arch.
And it happened once before approximately the same time I installed arch the first time.
Am I nuts? Can an install console chane CMOS values? Non-destructively?
No other CMOS values changed. So, it could be a weird coincidence.

Anyway, Arch looks neat-o. Soon as Grub is in Stable (0.6?) you will have a new convert.

Thanks

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#2 2003-01-04 06:49:59

omega
Member
From: WA, US of A
Registered: 2002-12-26
Posts: 10

Re: 2 questions from a noob

Well, omega, I'll take a stab at your first question.

Install arch as per usual, excluding lilo.

Then reboot from a Linux cd.
chroot into your arch install and get grub from the unstable tree.
Setup grub to your /dev/hda9, making sure that your other bootloader points to it.
Reboot from your hd.

I am no bash expert, but this might work for you.

Oh, and next time you oughta search the forums before posting a redundant grub question.

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#3 2003-01-04 08:28:55

sarah31
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From: Middle of Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 2,975
Website

Re: 2 questions from a noob

smile heh a don't forget to google for a good shrink too tongue


AKA uknowme

I am not your friend

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#4 2003-01-04 08:47:18

omega
Member
From: WA, US of A
Registered: 2002-12-26
Posts: 10

Re: 2 questions from a noob

Okay, I tried the chroot method, but that didn't work.
I used pacman to add grub to arch, but when i ran grub from the chrooted prompt the initialization went by too fast. (The part where it says "Trying to guess BIOS drives. This may take a while.")
Then when I ran the >root and >setup commands from grub nothing was written to the disk.

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#5 2003-01-04 08:50:37

omega
Member
From: WA, US of A
Registered: 2002-12-26
Posts: 10

Re: 2 questions from a noob

Are these *shrinks* you speak of really good with grub specifically and linux in general? smile

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#6 2003-01-04 08:57:29

omega
Member
From: WA, US of A
Registered: 2002-12-26
Posts: 10

Re: 2 questions from a noob

Oh, and by the way, I reset my bios clock after my first arch install tonight. Then I reinstalled from the cd after my first post and now my clock is off by exactly 8 hours again.

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#7 2003-01-04 09:49:33

BluPhoenyx
Member
Registered: 2002-12-23
Posts: 239

Re: 2 questions from a noob

It's been a long time since I've done what you are suggesting with lilo but it used to be possible and IIRC, probably still is. In fact, it used to be part of the older RedHat installtion. Before attempting to perform such a setup, you really ought to spend a little time reading more about what you are trying to do here: http://www.njnet.edu.cn/info/ebook/os/linux/index.htm There is a lot of info there but lilo is included. FWIW, lilo is not that difficult to use and in some cases, can be better than grub when you need access to alternate OS's. It can even have a graphical style menu if desired although this is little advertised.

As for the BIOS clock, it might be something simple such as setting the wrong timezone or not setting the timezone during install. I don't recall the default but unless you live in the same one as the developers it probably isn't what you want and I think that when the system starts, the time is adjusted.


BluPhoenyx

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#8 2003-01-04 15:55:44

sarah31
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From: Middle of Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 2,975
Website

Re: 2 questions from a noob

oknow that i have had some sleep i can better answer this....#2 first. How far west of canada are you? To me it sound as if you never set the time from the default Canada/Pacific that exists in /etc/rc.conf. Change it to your timezone and you should be ok.

#1 could you not somehow make a boot disk for arch then just edit your current grub menu.list to boot arch? I seem to remember doing something like this when i installe genpoo.


AKA uknowme

I am not your friend

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#9 2003-01-04 17:38:12

omega
Member
From: WA, US of A
Registered: 2002-12-26
Posts: 10

Re: 2 questions from a noob

Thanks for the replies.

When I say my BIOS clock is changed, I am referring to the value stored in CMOS. Why would it change that? Seems like that could be a really bad thing.
I did edit rc.conf, but why should it even matter? I would rather that my CMOS clock was the reference and the soft time in linux was slaved to the CMOS. Rather than the other way round.

I did also try another way to get grub. I installed arch with lilo then booted in and installed grub with pacman. But when I did that the only file in /boot/grub was menu.lst. So, when I ran grub it complained about missing files. I tried copying the missing files over from the gentoo /boot, but I never could get it to boot from grub.

BluPhoenyx, I was under the impression that grub is for booting multiple operating systems and lilo is for stability. I guess I was mistaken. If lilo can multi-boot I don't mind having it in my MBR. I don't care about boot-splash images anyway.

Is there any way to install arch without putting lilo in the MBR though?
Am I missing something simple?

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#10 2003-01-04 17:40:00

omega
Member
From: WA, US of A
Registered: 2002-12-26
Posts: 10

Re: 2 questions from a noob

By the way sarah31, I am in the Pacific timezone.  Zero degrees west of Canada. smile

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#11 2003-01-04 18:25:56

apeiro
Daddy
From: Victoria, BC, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-12
Posts: 771
Website

Re: 2 questions from a noob

From /etc/rc.shutdown:

stat_busy "Saving System Clock"
if [ "$HARDWARECLOCK" = "UTC" ]; then
    /sbin/hwclock --utc --systohc
else
    /sbin/hwclock --localtime --systohc
fi
stat_done

This saves the system clock to hardware.  Check to see your system time (and timezone) are correct, then your hardware clock should keep the same time.  If it still doesn't, it may be because your hardware clock is saved in UTC - configure arch to use the same by setting "HARDWARECLOCK=UTC" in /etc/rc.conf

HTH

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#12 2003-01-04 18:53:53

scottro
Member
From: NYC
Registered: 2002-10-11
Posts: 452
Website

Re: 2 questions from a noob

Re the grub issue of missing files...

Gentoo's grub seems to have been somewhat borked--but at any rate, when you install grub you usually have to do grub-install (target, eg '(fd0)'  with the single quote as shown.

I used to love Grub, but it seems to be running into trouble, not only on Sarah31's favorite, Gentoo smile but on FreeBSD as well. Last installation where I had to reinstall Grub, RH's, FreeBSD's and Gentoo's all gave me problems. I wound up saying the heck with it and downloading and installing it from Grub's website.

I have a page on it that might or might be of use at
http://home.nyc.rr.com/computertaijutsu/grub.html

However, the page was written back when it worked well.  smile

Scott

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#13 2003-01-04 18:58:54

omega
Member
From: WA, US of A
Registered: 2002-12-26
Posts: 10

Re: 2 questions from a noob

Thanks, I'll check that in /etc/rc.shutdown.
I am timezone=Pacific and Hardwareclock=localtime.

Can I just disable the whole /sbin/hwclock section of /etc/rc.shutdown?
That really bothers me that it changes settings on the board. And I don't use NTP anyway; which, I assume, is the reason for /sbin/hwclock.

And I checked the lilo mini-HOWTO. It was so simple all the time and I was trying to do all these things to get grub working.

The boot= directive in /etc/lilo.conf tells Lilo where it should place its primary boot loader. In general, you can either specify the master boot record (/dev/hda) or the root partition of your Linux installation (is usually is /dev/hda1 or /dev/hda2).

So on mine I changed lilo.conf from

boot=/dev/disks/disk0/disk
to
boot=/dev/hda7

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#14 2003-01-04 21:05:39

BluPhoenyx
Member
Registered: 2002-12-23
Posts: 239

Re: 2 questions from a noob

I'm glad to hear you got the lilo issue working properly, I knew it was something fairly simple.

As for which is better, grub or lilo. I suppose that is a personal decision. Lilo is certainly more mature and I can guarantee it's ability to boot a variety of different OS's on x86 systems, even another lilo setup. Grub on the other hand offers some different features such as an editable boot time cli, easier (for some) addition of new boot entries and others. And yes, grub will boot other OS's such as Windows or DOS and BSD.

With regard to the timezone issue. IIRC, this is standard for linux systems on shutdown. While it may be possible to do what you mention, it probably doesn't make that much sense as the system (linux) clock is actually more accurate, timewise than the cmos clock. Also, when you verify the timezone setting, make sure it is something like country/timezone. For example mine is America/Chicago. You can verify it quickly as the link /etc/localtime will be correctly set on bootup to the timezone.


BluPhoenyx

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#15 2003-01-04 22:39:54

omega
Member
From: WA, US of A
Registered: 2002-12-26
Posts: 10

Re: 2 questions from a noob

Thanks, BluPhoenyx.
My setting is Canada/Pacific. I had no idea that the country mattered. I guess I need to change it to America/Pacific. I haven't ever run into this problem before on 5 distros of Linux, FreeBSD, or Win. Maybe arch is the only one developed from Canada wink Although I think it may just be the installer cd that is changing my clock on reboot. I haven't rebooted my arch setup yet to see if the time doesn't change under my configured system.

How is the Linux clock more reliable than the BIOS clock? I thought that the OS just polled the motherboard for the time (unless you have NTP setup).
I honestly don't care about the clock, I'm just worried about the operating system changing CMOS values. That seems like a dangerous thing. Or is the CMOS something that can (and should) be changed easily? Just the actual BIOS that needs to not be messed with.

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#16 2003-01-05 00:53:17

mordantly
Member
From: Westside - CenCAL
Registered: 2002-08-16
Posts: 83
Website

Re: 2 questions from a noob

now i have just scanned the posts here and it appers u got lilo in ur correct part. as fur bootin multiple oses if thats what u still want.. all u need to do is add say

other=/dev/discs/disc0/part1
         label=WindowsXP

under all ur kernel images and ull be in business. now the CMOS is the actual data that controls ram latency, ide access modes, etc that is user configureable when u hit delete. the BIOS is the boot code in the rom/eeprom that interprets the user data valuse stored in the CMOS and is the interface between ur hardware and software. the BIOS can only be erased if its unplugged/uv erased/or software flashed while the CMOS will lose its configuration if the battery/power supply is removed. the rtc (real time clock) stores the date/time while the pc is off but when on the BIOS gets and stores its value and then itself feeds it to ur os of choice. but if say the CMOS battery if there is one is failing, the clock will loose nano seconds or some amount of time regulary while the power source is depleted until it is minutes or greater off off or flat out incorrect and needs to be set on every boot up.


try to be a man and some day, you'll understand   -ccr
oh dont u worry.. ill be eating ur balls fur lunch tomorrow.   -Hugh "HughMan" Stahl
MoRdAnTlY [Mr. Wolf '91 - '11]

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#17 2003-01-05 03:23:03

BluPhoenyx
Member
Registered: 2002-12-23
Posts: 239

Re: 2 questions from a noob

I don't know how AL specific this method of timezone setting is. IIRC, this is how it's done on all the RedHat and Mandrake systems I have worked with, although I only have one available to verify this and it shows an absolute path of /usr/share/zoneinfo/America/Chicago. Of course, the methods used to set things up are probably different. IIRC, the RH box uses a file /etc/timezone which (also) holds the info. The main reason I mentioned it originally, when I installed AL I made a stupid typo and the link was bad. It had to be fixed via the rc.conf file but I don't recall if the time changed and since it's on a vmware system, it wouldn't have stayed changed. The vmware emulator reads the time from the system on startup.

AFAIK, setting the hardware clock has never caused problem with cmos memory. You're right, cmos ram is not something to play around with unless you know what's going on. Setting the clock though is actually a rather simple thing and you might be surprised at how many OS's do this without your knowing about it.

I don't have all the info handy right now about the differences between hardware vs linux clock so I can't absolutely verify this info. IIRC, the difference in the clocks is frequency or is that granularity. Regardless, the hardware clock has a standard resolution equal to most common timepieces whereas the linux system clock has a much higher resolution so it's accuracy is better. There is more info available on the web about this and perhaps even the kernel source makes mention of it also so if you're still curious, check around. It may not make much difference to the average joe but on alot of systems, clock accuracy is very important.


BluPhoenyx

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#18 2003-01-05 04:21:22

omega
Member
From: WA, US of A
Registered: 2002-12-26
Posts: 10

Re: 2 questions from a noob

Well, thank you everybody.
I guess you learn something every day.
My timezone and bootloader problems are fixed now (I think) smile

I can definitely live with lilo booting arch now that I know how to get it in a particular partition.

I am having some trouble with modules; but I'll certainly read a little this time, before I start spastically sp@mmin every forum all willy-nilly. wink

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