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#1 2006-01-23 16:20:17

dojo
Member
Registered: 2005-11-02
Posts: 96

[Poll] Who is interested in splitted kde packages?

Hi,

i love arch and i love kde. But in arch there is no official spliiting for packages, because it's too much work for one maintainer, to maintain all packages alone [1]. So if i do

du -sh /opt/kde

i get over 400 MB, altough i haven't installed the complete kde. Furthermore i only need some programs and not all from one package. And know the question:

Who is interested in official splitted kde packages?

Greets

Sunnemer

[1] http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Mak … E_packages

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#2 2006-01-23 16:30:19

pressh
Developer/TU
From: Netherlands
Registered: 2005-08-14
Posts: 1,719

Re: [Poll] Who is interested in splitted kde packages?

I voted 'no' as I don't use that much kde apps. I think most apps in the kde packages are not that usefull at all as they can easily be replaced by better alternatives not depending on kde. Only kde app I use is digikam which is not in one of the big kde packages.

Is there any reason you want splitted apps from kdegraphics, kdemultimedia, etc ? I mean, which of the apps from those packages you actually use?

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#3 2006-01-23 16:49:15

arooaroo
Member
From: London, UK
Registered: 2005-01-13
Posts: 1,268
Website

Re: [Poll] Who is interested in splitted kde packages?

I voted yes, but I also don't know whether it's worth the effort at the end of the day for the package maintainer, i.e., tpowa.

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#4 2006-01-23 17:32:56

ingvildr
Member
From: Brighton, England
Registered: 2005-04-19
Posts: 203

Re: [Poll] Who is interested in splitted kde packages?

i am very interested in this, i love the fact that on debian sid i can have a nice small system without a mass of kde apps i will never use, would be great if i could do this on arch.

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#5 2006-01-23 17:36:41

pressh
Developer/TU
From: Netherlands
Registered: 2005-08-14
Posts: 1,719

Re: [Poll] Who is interested in splitted kde packages?

ingvildr wrote:

i am very interested in this, i love the fact that on debian sid i can have a nice small system without a mass of kde apps i will never use, would be great if i could do this on arch.

so you can build them using abs as explained in the wiki (link in first post)

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#6 2006-01-23 18:09:29

kth5
Member
Registered: 2004-04-29
Posts: 655
Website

Re: [Poll] Who is interested in splitted kde packages?

splitting up packages on your own is likely to introduce bugs for which the original authors cannot be held responsible. tagging along with packages close to the way the packages are meant to be made from source is a good thing.

my vote: no


I recognize that while theory and practice are, in theory, the same, they are, in practice, different. -Mark Mitchell

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#7 2006-01-23 18:35:18

dojo
Member
Registered: 2005-11-02
Posts: 96

Re: [Poll] Who is interested in splitted kde packages?

pressh wrote:

Is there any reason you want splitted apps from kdegraphics, kdemultimedia, etc ? I mean, which of the apps from those packages you actually use?

For example i only use kmix from kdemultimedia. For playing mp3 i use amarok. Amarok itself has kdemultimedia as dependency, but only needs kioslave from kdemultimedia. So all users using amarok, have to install the complete kdemultimedia package. This is one reason why the packages for kde should be splitted in the extra repository. The benefit would be great.

kth5 wrote:

splitting up packages on your own is likely to introduce bugs for which the original authors cannot be held responsible. tagging along with packages close to the way the packages are meant to be made from source is a good thing.

my vote: no

Have you ever looked in a kdepackage like kdemultimedia? Every application has it's own directory. So i don't think this will introduce bugs. And the packages will be made from source, see the PKGBUILD examples from tpowa referenced in my first post and [1] in this post.

arooaroo wrote:

I voted yes, but I also don't know whether it's worth the effort at the end of the day for the package maintainer, i.e., tpowa.

I would maintain this kdepackages and the corresponding metapackages with tpowa and other volunteers together.

Are there any other volunteers? For example those people who maintain the kde-standalone-packages at user-contributions.org [1]

Greets

Sunnemer

[1] http://user-contributions.org/users/inc … tandalone/

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#8 2006-01-23 21:29:30

LB06
Member
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2003-10-29
Posts: 435

Re: [Poll] Who is interested in splitted kde packages?

I would be interested. I like having kpdf without the rest and having kmix without having the rest, but I wouldn't be very interested in having a package for every kioslave for instance. E.g kdelibs-kioslaves-fish kdelibs-kioslaves-ftp kdelibs-kioslaves-sftp. 

Many of my favorite apps are already available seperately (amarok, k3b, kopete). And apps like konq are so integrated into kde it's not worth separating them.

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#9 2006-01-24 07:11:16

tpowa
Developer
From: Lauingen , Germany
Registered: 2004-04-05
Posts: 2,261

Re: [Poll] Who is interested in splitted kde packages?

if you need only 3 apps, please follow the wiki, i'll not break the stuff into pieces i tried it, it's a mess, needs ages and it's simply not worth.
greetings
tpowa

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#10 2006-01-24 14:22:44

cro
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 2006-01-02
Posts: 101

Re: [Poll] Who is interested in splitted kde packages?

Hi,
I voted "yes".

But I'd like to say that it might be best if the KDE developers would reconsider their official packaging in the future. It doesn't make sense that every distribution has to make the effort to split the packages. Besides I don't understand what the advantages of these monolithic standard kde packages are? The interdependencies are not so much that you have to group the software in these categories. Other distributions like Debian and Gentoo already accomplished the splitting. Although I have to admit that the Gentoo people went to far, because they splitted kdebase into small parts and in total there are now about 300 single kde packages in portage (the big ones are still available, of course).

Anyway, I find it very impractical and uncomfortable that I have to install many useless stuff, if the only thing I want is one small kde applet.
Good examples are:
    - kstars: You have to install all the stupid kid stuff, although kstars only needs libkdeedu
    - the kicker applet called "system monitor" (ktimemon): For some reason the KDE developers put this important applet into kdeaddons, which has very many dependencies (including kdegames, which seems like a joke to me), that would not be needed for the kicker applets.

Well, it would be nice if there were splitted KDE binary packages for ArchLinux.

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#11 2006-01-24 18:15:33

kth5
Member
Registered: 2004-04-29
Posts: 655
Website

Re: [Poll] Who is interested in splitted kde packages?

sunnemer wrote:
kth5 wrote:

splitting up packages on your own is likely to introduce bugs for which the original authors cannot be held responsible. tagging along with packages close to the way the packages are meant to be made from source is a good thing.

my vote: no

Have you ever looked in a kdepackage like kdemultimedia? Every application has it's own directory. So i don't think this will introduce bugs. And the packages will be made from source, see the PKGBUILD examples from tpowa referenced in my first post and [1] in this post.

i did but i still don't see the reasoning behind the idea that this should be an argument for splitting up the package. as you might have seen the package comes with a global autotools configuration that is meant to only compile the whole thing at once.

why a developer prefers subdirectories in his software could be for several reasons:

* to maintain code browsability
* to properly regulate write/readonly access for a number of devs
* to recreate a representation of the software-design on the filesystem
* .. and probably more

i see your point about subdirectories in the sourcetarballs that could be used to split up the thing. but also think about the fact that kdemultimedia does not only contain a folder per application that it provides but also for libraries that they may depend on. in the worst case scenario it could happen that the number of packages raises exponentially and becomes a dependency hell. maintainability in the case of a major upgrade or so-bump of a very basic dependency could cease to exist and could take the developers ages to catch up again.
exactly this is what i mean could introduce bugs that didn't exist before because the packages where built how they came as a sourcetarball and meant to be built.

nothing against GNOME but why is it that it requires 3 fulltime devs and sometimes even help of others to keep it up to date *AND* working? standing ovations for JGC, Blaasvis and Maro here.
KDE is a totally different thing, even though tpowa may mostly be the only dev who is working with KDE packages he still has time to throw in some extras here and there. i may be blind but in my opinion the GNOME team's job is much harder.

does it really matter wether you have 66megs more on the user's end for kdelibs? come on, 40GB is the smallest HDD i've seen in ages in a i686 now. even though, i welcome the idea of having the posibilty to install major apps seperatly of a full KDE install. meaning konqueror-e and others, i don't want to have them in extra.


I recognize that while theory and practice are, in theory, the same, they are, in practice, different. -Mark Mitchell

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#12 2006-01-25 15:47:38

Moo-Crumpus
Member
From: Hessen / Germany
Registered: 2003-12-01
Posts: 1,442

Re: [Poll] Who is interested in splitted kde packages?

I voted no.
If there was a large number of users that would like to take part in maintaining the packages, it might be an option, at least a new base of decission. But just "vote" and hope tpowa will do it is way to passive. For him it is hard enough to maintain all that stuff, and btw. he does quite well.


Frumpus addict
[mu'.krum.pus], [frum.pus]

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#13 2006-01-25 16:57:56

LB06
Member
From: The Netherlands
Registered: 2003-10-29
Posts: 435

Re: [Poll] Who is interested in splitted kde packages?

tpowa wrote:

if you need only 3 apps, please follow the wiki, i'll not break the stuff into pieces i tried it, it's a mess, needs ages and it's simply not worth.
greetings
tpowa

Where? Can't find it. This is all I've found so far: http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/KDE … _splitting:

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#14 2006-01-25 17:25:59

mr_echo
Member
Registered: 2005-03-28
Posts: 25

Re: [Poll] Who is interested in splitted kde packages?

LB06 wrote:
tpowa wrote:

if you need only 3 apps, please follow the wiki, i'll not break the stuff into pieces i tried it, it's a mess, needs ages and it's simply not worth.
greetings
tpowa

Where? Can't find it. This is all I've found so far: http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/KDE … _splitting:

Here it is (as stated in the first post as well):
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Mak … E_packages

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#15 2006-01-25 20:55:04

Neuro
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 2005-10-12
Posts: 352

Re: [Poll] Who is interested in splitted kde packages?

It would be great to be able to trim the system down to bare minimum. I mean there are so many useless things in the basic kde packages that I don't really need 3 different media players. There are so many apps, libs and bindings that I don't need. So many dependencies that I was so sick of removing after updates that I finally gave up. It would be wonderful to be able to hand-pick standalone binary packages of KDE.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't except tpowa to do all the work. He already does a superb job keeping things clean and up to date in the KDE sphere (cheers to him for that smile ) I know the task's hard, it's a bit against Arch's KISS rule, and would also introduce some new bugs. But on the other hand, there are people who already do it in usecontributions.org.

I voted yes, although I'd much prefer a third option: yes as long as there enough volunteers to do it.

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#16 2006-01-25 21:00:56

leeghoofd
Member
From: the Netherlands
Registered: 2005-04-28
Posts: 61

Re: [Poll] Who is interested in splitted kde packages?

Hi,

I'm in favor of splitting the packages but only if the kde devs do it. Changing the packages by splitting them up is against the arch philosophy. Also if you weight the advantages and disadvantages I think the disadvantages weight heavier.

+ For non kde users possible to install a few kde programs with minimal dependencies.
+ For kde users the posability to uninstal not needed programs.
- Bigger change of bugs in kde packages
- Harder to track down a bug or send it upstream
- Longer time for the packages to be ready after a release
- Much more work (too much for one maintainer)

Cya,
David

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#17 2006-01-25 23:29:51

iphitus
Forum Fellow
From: Melbourne, Australia
Registered: 2004-10-09
Posts: 4,927

Re: [Poll] Who is interested in splitted kde packages?

Even if the kde devs do it, it would be a bitch for the Arch devs to maintain. Go into your kmenu and count all the apps.

IMHO, its really not the end of the world having them all in one..... most people would have more than ample hdd space as most i686's sold have more than 10gb hdd space, excepting maybe some P2s.

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