infinality-bundle: good looking fonts made (even) easier

bohoomil · 2014-05-23 22:27:21

@MindfulMonk, @Knusperkeks Thank you -- I appreciate it.

I am using a custom TeX Live installation and XeLaTeX almost exclusively, so I needed to take care of Open Type typefaces: native (La)TeX font format does not depend on fontconfig so there is nothing to worry about.

By default, when you install TeX Live from the [extra] repository, all fonts are made available for the entire system, and this is done in a rather rough way. For example, if there are three formats of the same family (T1, OTF and TTF), they all will be accessible for fontconfig regardless of the differences in their rendering schemas. This is the approach that should be avoided, so instead of using everything from the `texmf-dist/fonts` "as is", I removed `/etc/fonts/conf.d/09-texlive-fonts.conf` and have been using only fonts with preconfigured rendering settings. Quite a few font packages from [infinality-bundle-fonts] are families included in TeX Live and were taken from CTAN, so if you are planning to use any XeTeX derived compiler, I would advise you to adopt the same approach. If necessary, I can re-pack more fonts from TeX Live and add them to the repo.

Last edited by bohoomil (2014-05-24 12:45:51)

silenc3r · 2014-05-24 11:45:44

could you please add "Provides = ttf-opensans" to ttf-opensans-ib package?

bohoomil · 2014-05-24 13:20:57

@silenc3r Sure -- done.

silenc3r · 2014-05-24 14:47:30

Lovely, thanks!

orschiro · 2014-05-30 15:54:52

@bohoomil

Just an idea. Would it be possible to implement some kind of switch that allows a user to deactivate infinality-bundle without actually deinstalling it?

This could be useful if you want to investigate whether a specific font issue is caused by infinality or not.

What do you think? Or is simply uninstalling the easier way?

PieterGen · 2014-05-30 20:07:21

@brebs (hope you're reading this - All others, please feel free to jump in !) Your signature points to an informative discussion on the Gentoo forum. Using a good font configuration on " stock" fonts seems to be the preferred methode. Sometimes even very "simple" configs, as per this post .

On the other hand, there is the Infinality Way: not only configuring fonts but patching fonts/ libraries themselves as well. This seems to be " the Ubuntu Way" also. I'm sure bohoomil has thought deeply about this. As do the Ubuntu devs - you don't undertake such a job when not needed.

My questions:

- what is the reason that the Gentoo preference seems to be "stock fonts with good config settings" ? (versus Infinaliy or Ubuntu patching) ? Philosophical? Licenses? Reducing breakages?

- if the patched fonts are better than the stock ones, why doesn't upstream merge these patches? Perhaps even make under a different name (say Deja Vu and DejaVu-linux)

- in what ways are the Infinality patches different from the Ubuntu patches? Does this have to do with style, preference, flexibility ?

Thanks all. I'm trying to get the best looking fonts AND trying to learn. Kudos for all the hard work.

FYI: I'm using Infinality on my Arch box, which is a clear improvement over stock Arch settings, but not yet "font nirvana". Maybe, maybe, I must experiment with the " no antialiassing for small sizes" trick ?

SolarBoyMatt · 2014-05-30 20:55:03

What qualifies as "good" or "better" is all a matter of preference. Some people are perfectly fine with the stock configuration, and others aren't. If what they think is "good" can't be accomplished with just configuring the stock packages, then that's where the patches come in.

Stefan Husmann · 2014-05-30 22:31:16

Indeed, the perceptions of different people vary significantly. I once met a person who prefered the look of fonts in Microsoft Word (it was about ten or more years ago, I do not remember the version) over the smooth, antialised fonts in pdf files.

I myself like antialiasing, others do not.

bohoomil · 2014-05-31 02:06:46

@orschiro Not really. You can reset `freetype2` settings to base values, but this is not exactly what you mean. Besides, you still have the preconfigured `fontconfig-infinality-ultimate` with the plethora of settings that are absent in the stock `fontconfig`. Hence, to get the real stock Linux rendering, reinstall the clean packages.

@PieterGen et al. It is all about digital / virtual typography vs. the traditional / mechanical one and their original ecosystems. Even if we radically improve technology behind displays, rendering engines, etc. some day in the future, the font will still be perceived differently than the printed typeface. A font (like everything digital) is not a typeface (like every physical entity): its boundaries are approximate, extremely conventional, dependent on more additional data that affect the user experience and which is missing from the physical thing. That is why I do not even try to think of what I am doing as approaching the state when nothing more can be done or, say, any universal modus that would satisfy everyone. Instead, what makes sense to me (and what seems to work in some way or another) is building a coherent collection of software whose discrete components work together in an acceptable way. Of course, creating a subsystem that would work properly with randomly installed fonts is still a goal, but in my opinion this is more an ideal rather than a state we can technically achieve.

Why bundles? Just an example: get the same font family, Sorts Mill Goudy for example, from three different sources (the author's home page, Google Fonts and The League of Moveable Type). They all render differently, more or less, regardless of the back-end you are using (Windows, Mac OS X, various Linux freetype/fontconfig branches). None can be marked 'the original' or 'stock' just as we could do with physical typefaces. Hence you can either choose between releases randomly, or pick the one which best fits your context and keep improving the visual identity of the 'context'.

Off topic: I am preparing an upload with a few fixes and more fonts, so check out the news.

Last edited by bohoomil (2014-05-31 05:16:24)

hthuong · 2014-05-31 08:24:07

Hi every one! I have a problem when signing key

[***@****~]$ sudo pacman-key -r 962DDE58
[sudo] password for ***: 
gpg: requesting key 962DDE58 from hkp server pool.sks-keyservers.net
gpg: key 962DDE58: public key "bohoomil (dev key) <bohoomil@zoho.com>" imported
gpg: Total number processed: 1
gpg:               imported: 1  (RSA: 1)
==> Updating trust database...
gpg: next trustdb check due at 2015-02-03
[***@*** ~]$ sudo pacman-key --lsign-key 962DDE58
  -> Locally signing key 962DDE58...
==> ERROR: 962DDE58 could not be locally signed.
[***@*** ~]$

Yesterday i do it in my virtual machine and it works correctly. But today i try in my notebook and i get this error.

PieterGen · 2014-05-31 10:16:05

@bohoomil, Stefan, Solar - thanks ! Typography is a compicated bitch ;-) And conventional choices are sometime strange.

[offtopic] Numerals. Most fonts have 1234567890 on the same line. This can be called " lining figures". The other option are text figures. A few fonts (Georgia, for instance) have these as the default figure. This makes for better readability - because the difference between numbers is clearer. [Text figures are like undercase letters; lining figures are like all caps text, harder to read]. So there are basically 4 styles of numbers: text figures (monospaced); text figures (proportional); lining figures (monospaced), lining figures (proportional). The larger font families contain these all these 4 variants. What I still haven't found though is a nice coding font that is has monospaced text figures AND clear differences between 0, o, O, L, l, 1, i and I. [/offtopic]

Last edited by PieterGen (2014-05-31 10:19:19)

brebs · 2014-05-31 12:46:51

PieterGen wrote:

- what is the reason that the Gentoo preference seems to be "stock fonts with good config settings" ? (versus Infinaliy or Ubuntu patching) ? Philosophical? Licenses? Reducing breakages?

All 3 are factors, I suppose

if the patched fonts are better than the stock ones, why doesn't upstream merge these patches? Perhaps even make under a different name (say Deja Vu and DejaVu-linux)

Hang on, are you intending to refer to patching *freetype*? If so, some of Infinality's patches got into freetype.

Upstream can be nuts - Exhibit A is cairo-respect-fontconfig.patch.

in what ways are the Infinality patches different from the Ubuntu patches? Does this have to do with style, preference, flexibility ?

Flexibility is probably the most important feature.

Ubuntu produces nice fonts out-of-the-box. Infinality produces better fonts, after the user has done some *experimentation* to suit his eyes/monitor/DPI.

font nirvana

We need 300+ DPI monitors, like with laser printers - this is a hardware problem

100-ish DPI is not sufficient to please the really fussy folks such as I. It's just not enough physical dots to render fonts excellently, regardless of the software.

a nice coding font that is has monospaced text figures AND clear differences between 0, o, O, L, l, 1, i and I

I currently use Bitstream Vera Sans Mono.

PieterGen · 2014-05-31 15:35:27

Thank brebs. Makes things more clear. BTW, Bitstream Vera Sans Mono is a nice font, but the numerals are not text figures (aka. Old style Figures). This discussion on Stack Exchange may clarify what I meant.

nTia89 · 2014-06-02 09:26:24

noob questions:

1-what are differences between "vanilla" and "infinality" fonts?
2-in a system with infinality packages (cairo, fontconfig), which I must to install?

e.g. difference between extra/ttf-dejavu and infinality-bundle-fonts/ttf-dejavu-ib

SolarBoyMatt · 2014-06-02 18:02:20

nTia89 wrote:

noob questions:
1-what are differences between "vanilla" and "infinality" fonts?
2-in a system with infinality packages (cairo, fontconfig), which I must to install?
e.g. difference between extra/ttf-dejavu and infinality-bundle-fonts/ttf-dejavu-ib

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Infinality-bundle

Simply put, the differences are the style of the rendering. Install the bundle and see it first-hand, having us describe it won't really help.

Last edited by SolarBoyMatt (2014-06-02 18:06:19)

bohoomil · 2014-06-02 21:24:00

@nTia89 Briefly, it is all about the detailed configuration which Infinality patchset made available (see brebs' reponse concerning Infinality's flexibility) and the selection of fonts being used. In the provided example, ttf-dejavu-ib comes with a configuration scenario which tells fontconfig which data it should pass to freetype2-ib in order to achieve particular rendering results. The stock ttf-dejavu is missing this sort of information and is rendered using basic default, generic freetype2 settings.

The documentation I am currently putting together will highlight the different ib's strategy a bit further.

Last edited by bohoomil (2014-06-02 21:26:47)

PieterGen · 2014-06-02 21:54:01

@bohoomil, after a few days working @ home on my arch system with a cheap monitor but (!) with Infinality fonts/rendering, today I was @ work: nice monitor, but the system is W7.... Needless to say, I was shocked by the work system font quality: anorexic, jagged, OMG this is patented???? So people actually pay for...this ?? The OSX fonts are much, much nicer (my students user osx a lot). But those are TOO fat.

Infinality sits nicely in the middle. Of course, OS-wise I'm a Linuxguy and have been for a long time, but the nice thing is, thanks to Infinality we have the best fonts too!

Jristz · 2014-06-02 23:45:06

'e I have a question
when yo select a font replacenment you select the closest to look and feel, the closet to the metric, the closet to the more common replacenment or what cause I wanna do some translation and the upstream use some specific fonts, but I will not instal ms-cre-font for using 5 font for all those.

If you are curious the fonts are:

Flanklin Gothic Semi Condenced
Strangelo Edessa
Franklin Gothic Book
Ya Love Like A Sister
Lady Jane Old
Segoe Print
Gabriola
Comics Sans

Thanks in advancenment

bohoomil · 2014-06-03 00:49:44

Archivo Narrow (ttf-archivo-narrow-ibx) can be used instead of Franklin Gothic Semi Condensed. There are several similar sans-serif condensed/narrow typefaces available in the infinality-bundle collection.
Franklin Gothic Book you can download for free.
Estrangelo Edessa for Syriac script is available in the bundle by default (otf-melthofonts-ib).
Gabriola is similar in style to Quintessential (otf-quintessential-ib).
Comic Sans -- you can use the default ib replacement, which is Signika, or you can download an exactly ugly looking free replacement, Comic Relief.
Architect's Daughter (recommended), Rabiohead or Calligraffiti should do for Segoe Print, among others (there are plenty of hand drawn like free fonts around).
Lady Jane Old is a free font,
…and so is Love Ya Like A Sister.

bohoomil · 2014-06-03 00:52:53

PieterGen wrote:

Infinality sits nicely in the middle.

Thank you. This was actually the goal.

nTia89 · 2014-06-03 16:23:59

bohoomil wrote:

@nTia89 Briefly, it is all about the detailed configuration which Infinality patchset made available (see brebs' reponse concerning Infinality's flexibility) and the selection of fonts being used. In the provided example, ttf-dejavu-ib comes with a configuration scenario which tells fontconfig which data it should pass to freetype2-ib in order to achieve particular rendering results. The stock ttf-dejavu is missing this sort of information and is rendered using basic default, generic freetype2 settings.
The documentation I am currently putting together will highlight the different ib's strategy a bit further.

thank you!

so using {cairo,fontconfig,freetype2}-infinality-ultimate BUT with vanilla font makes useless the infinality "tweak" ???

brebs · 2014-06-03 16:31:52

nTia89 wrote:

BUT with vanilla font

For what you're trying to say, the answer is no, it isn't useless

But it's a very strange question. Do you buy a Ferrari, then ask the garage how fast it can go with no rubber on its wheels?

Define "vanilla font", for starters.

nTia89 · 2014-06-03 17:19:39

brebs wrote:

nTia89 wrote:
BUT with vanilla font
For what you're trying to say, the answer is no, it isn't useless
But it's a very strange question. Do you buy a Ferrari, then ask the garage how fast it can go with no rubber on its wheels?
Define "vanilla font", for starters.

I mean the stock packages from extra repository

Jristz · 2014-06-03 20:04:57

@Bohoomil you never stop surprising me, you are the lord of fonts here
Thanks

bohoomil · 2014-06-04 03:42:50

@Jristz …will tell you the secret: it's Google.

Arch Linux

#1151 2014-05-23 22:27:21

Re: infinality-bundle: good looking fonts made (even) easier

#1152 2014-05-24 11:45:44

Re: infinality-bundle: good looking fonts made (even) easier

#1153 2014-05-24 13:20:57

Re: infinality-bundle: good looking fonts made (even) easier

#1154 2014-05-24 14:47:30

Re: infinality-bundle: good looking fonts made (even) easier

#1155 2014-05-30 15:54:52

Re: infinality-bundle: good looking fonts made (even) easier

#1156 2014-05-30 20:07:21

Re: infinality-bundle: good looking fonts made (even) easier

#1157 2014-05-30 20:55:03

Re: infinality-bundle: good looking fonts made (even) easier

#1158 2014-05-30 22:31:16

Re: infinality-bundle: good looking fonts made (even) easier

#1159 2014-05-31 02:06:46

Re: infinality-bundle: good looking fonts made (even) easier

#1160 2014-05-31 08:24:07

Re: infinality-bundle: good looking fonts made (even) easier

#1161 2014-05-31 10:16:05

Re: infinality-bundle: good looking fonts made (even) easier

#1162 2014-05-31 12:46:51

Re: infinality-bundle: good looking fonts made (even) easier

#1163 2014-05-31 15:35:27

Re: infinality-bundle: good looking fonts made (even) easier

#1164 2014-06-02 09:26:24

Re: infinality-bundle: good looking fonts made (even) easier

#1165 2014-06-02 18:02:20

Re: infinality-bundle: good looking fonts made (even) easier

#1166 2014-06-02 21:24:00

Re: infinality-bundle: good looking fonts made (even) easier

#1167 2014-06-02 21:54:01

Re: infinality-bundle: good looking fonts made (even) easier

#1168 2014-06-02 23:45:06

Re: infinality-bundle: good looking fonts made (even) easier

#1169 2014-06-03 00:49:44

Re: infinality-bundle: good looking fonts made (even) easier

#1170 2014-06-03 00:52:53

Re: infinality-bundle: good looking fonts made (even) easier

#1171 2014-06-03 16:23:59

Re: infinality-bundle: good looking fonts made (even) easier

#1172 2014-06-03 16:31:52

Re: infinality-bundle: good looking fonts made (even) easier

#1173 2014-06-03 17:19:39

Re: infinality-bundle: good looking fonts made (even) easier

#1174 2014-06-03 20:04:57

Re: infinality-bundle: good looking fonts made (even) easier

#1175 2014-06-04 03:42:50

Re: infinality-bundle: good looking fonts made (even) easier

Board footer