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#301 2014-06-10 12:43:23

orschiro
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Registered: 2009-06-04
Posts: 2,136
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Re: Pantheon Shell on Archlinux

Another question about Plank dock.

It it possible to customise the icon of a dock object?

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#302 2014-06-10 19:04:03

quequotion
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From: Oita, Japan
Registered: 2013-07-29
Posts: 473
Website

Re: Pantheon Shell on Archlinux

orschiro wrote:

@quequotion

Thanks for your efforts. I opened an issue on Github. Let's see to what extent the developer can help here!

Progress! I learned about makefiles today:
PKGBUILD
Makefile
plank-themer.sh

Now in AUR!

Last edited by quequotion (2014-06-10 19:08:38)

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#303 2014-06-10 19:05:21

orschiro
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Registered: 2009-06-04
Posts: 2,136
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Re: Pantheon Shell on Archlinux

@quequotion

Very nice! So, is this package ready to go the AUR?

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#304 2014-06-11 14:43:58

kaslusimoes
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Registered: 2013-12-19
Posts: 47

Re: Pantheon Shell on Archlinux

Does anyone ever tried using gala and plank on top of Cinnamon? It worked?

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#305 2014-06-11 16:34:12

orschiro
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Registered: 2009-06-04
Posts: 2,136
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Re: Pantheon Shell on Archlinux

@kaslusimoes

I use plank in plain Openbox and it works flawlessy. I expect the same to be in Cinnamon.

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#306 2014-06-11 18:02:47

pgoetz
Member
From: Austin, Texas
Registered: 2014-02-21
Posts: 187

Re: Pantheon Shell on Archlinux

Like many others, I did a test install of elementaryOS Luna and got very excited about the prospect of running the pantheon DE on Arch.  Finally, a non-bloated, modern Linux DE that I can throw at university computer lab users who often don't have any experience with linux!  But one which will also make experienced users reasonably happy as well -- awesome.  Then I read through this entire 1.5-year long comment thread and realized that linux desktop heaven (Arch + Pantheon) is probably still just outside of the grasp of mainstream users?  The silent death of this launchpad question was also not encouraging.

So, here's my question:  has anyone put together a step by step howto on getting the best possible iteration of pantheon running on arch?  I read through the pantheon wiki, which was helpful, but not exactly what I was looking for.

Second question:  I'm looking for something which will run on 300 machines, 2000-4000 users.  This means that once installed, it needs to be relatively robust; i.e. the production desktops are protected from real time updates, but it's still going to turn into a chore if the DE breaks regularly on the test machines.  From this discussion, it sounds like lots of breakage is ongoing?  I like the interface so much, I'm probably willing to put up with a fair amount of pain, but at the end of the day Libre Office, TeX, Firefox, Thunderbird, and some PDF viewer have to work 24-7 to prevent  my untimely death by user execution.

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#307 2014-06-11 18:20:09

orschiro
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Registered: 2009-06-04
Posts: 2,136
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Re: Pantheon Shell on Archlinux

Second question:  I'm looking for something which will run on 300 machines, 2000-4000 users.  This means that once installed, it needs to be relatively robust; i.e. the production desktops are protected from real time updates, but it's still going to turn into a chore if the DE breaks regularly on the test machines.  From this discussion, it sounds like lots of breakage is ongoing?  I like the interface so much, I'm probably willing to put up with a fair amount of pain, but at the end of the day Libre Office, TeX, Firefox, Thunderbird, and some PDF viewer have to work 24-7 to prevent  my untimely death by user execution.

I wouldn't choose Arch + Pantheon for this setting. Are there any restrictions to just go for the default elementaryOS?

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#308 2014-06-11 19:27:22

pgoetz
Member
From: Austin, Texas
Registered: 2014-02-21
Posts: 187

Re: Pantheon Shell on Archlinux

orschiro wrote:

I wouldn't choose Arch + Pantheon for this setting. Are there any restrictions to just go for the default elementaryOS?

Yes, it's based on Ubuntu; even worse old Ubuntu.  We're using Ubuntu now, and the aging software/have to periodically re-install hundreds of machines is the model I'm trying to get away from.  Because it's a university environment, and I work in Math/Statistics/Data, the users demand up-to-date software, development libraries, etc..  We end up using PPA's for everything, or having to build our own packages.   Also, I got disillusioned with Canonical when they first refused to switch from Upstart to systemd, even though it was clear that systemd was a superior solution and Upstart created tons of headaches for sys admins.  The final nail in the coffin was Mir, which a frequent commenter to this thread has also written about.  Mir is entirely unnecessary and the perfect example of NIH silliness.

If you look at the "Journal" on the elementaryos.org website, the only complaint you ever see (and it comes up frequently) is the software is too old and out of date for many users.  I already suggested to eOS that they should re-base elementary OS on Arch, but didn't get a response.  It's a small team, and they're probably swamped trying to get Isis out.

I've been using linux since version 0.99, and pantheon is the first DE I'm actually excited about.  I liked gnome 2 well enough, but there were lots of bugs that never got fixed.  Pantheon is the perfect blend of simple, but not to simple, at least in my opinion.  If I can't get Pantheon to work for this application, I'll have to use gnome 3 + extensions, which is probably just as unstable, given the gnome team's attitude towards users.

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#309 2014-06-11 20:14:26

orschiro
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Registered: 2009-06-04
Posts: 2,136
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Re: Pantheon Shell on Archlinux

If I can't get Pantheon to work for this application, I'll have to use gnome 3 + extensions, which is probably just as unstable, given the gnome team's attitude towards users.

What are the core features of Pantheon that you would like to replicate?

Maybe similar means are possible with lightweight alternatives such as Openbox.

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#310 2014-06-11 21:12:22

pgoetz
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From: Austin, Texas
Registered: 2014-02-21
Posts: 187

Re: Pantheon Shell on Archlinux

orschiro wrote:

What are the core features of Pantheon that you would like to replicate?

Maybe similar means are possible with lightweight alternatives such as Openbox.


You're probably right that I can take care of the naive users with Openbox.  Having both plank and slingshot is handy because it will provide familiarity to Mac and WIndows users (many of our student lab users are first time linux users).  pantheon-files is one of the better file managers I've seen (although it's still a bit buggy in Luna, say when mounting a remote SSH filesystem).

Power users are going to want workspaces, though, and the workspace implementation in Gala is simply awesome:  good default shortcuts, ability to move applications from the Workspace Switcher, ability to close windows from the Expose Windows view.  Very fluid and natural interface.  I've been using KDE for a couple of years and it only took me a few minutes to get used to Gala (and not want to switch back).   There are some really good things about the gnome shell.  Gala keeps all the good parts and gets rid of the clunkiness.  Switchboard is also handy and easy to use.

Other issues which will come up that I haven't even looked in to yet:  multiple monitor support, skype, and dropbox.   The final complication is that we have to also make at least KDE, gnome 3, and possibly Cinnamon available as well; i.e. freedom of DE choice for the linux university culture.  We currently also have Unity, XFCE, windowmaker and about 12 others, but part of the system revamp will be to stop supporting the DE's/window managers that only one or two people are using.  One point of concern is that people on this topic were having issues with lightdm, which I was hoping to switch to from kdm.

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#311 2014-06-11 21:29:15

Alucryd
Developer
From: France
Registered: 2011-05-07
Posts: 102
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Re: Pantheon Shell on Archlinux

I installed Arch + Pantheon on a colleague's computer (he's kinda my guinea pig). While it's quite stable, meaning close to no crashes (even with all bzr packages), I wouldn't consider it production ready yet. There are still too many rough edges, and as you noticed, the biggest being wingpanel + indicators, which is why I've been playing with it on a VM, and will continue to do so for now. I still haven't gotten around trying xfce4-panel or tint2, I'd prefer xfce4-panel over tint2 because the latter is getting old, but I don't know whether I can integrate slingshot-launcher in any of them. That said, maybe you don't need a panel (I for one don't), in that case, give it a spin, install pantheon-session-bzr from my repo to get base Pantheon, as well as your favorite DM, then you can prevent wingpanel from launching by removing it from the cerbere watched processes.

As Orschiro suggested, you can also have a look at openbox (with compton or even gala if you want a bit of eye-candy), I used a combination of openbox, compton, conky and plank for a while and rather liked it. Plus you can easily replicate your whole configuration which is all plain text files. Xfce is also interesting, also a lot less tedious to configure, but I guess you already considered it. As for Gnome 3, I'd say it's not that bad, it has improved quite a bit over the years. I have it as my main DE, until Pantheon is ready that is.


The bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.

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#312 2014-06-11 21:40:08

Alucryd
Developer
From: France
Registered: 2011-05-07
Posts: 102
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Re: Pantheon Shell on Archlinux

Guess we were writing at the same time. Some more comments: switchboard is still incomplete in Arch Linux, the reason why is that eOS is using the Ubuntu gnome-control-center which had one of its commits undone, so that libgnome-control-center is built. We don't have that, and most likely never will. As for slingshot, you can probably make do with things like synapse or gnome-do. Openbox has its right-click menu for that, and also has workspaces with configurable shortcut (don't know what's up with those if you couple it with gala though).

The issues with lightdm happen only if you use the pantheon greeter, because it doesn't support the latest granite yet. Using the GTK3 greeter works like a charm.


The bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.

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#313 2014-06-11 22:33:23

pgoetz
Member
From: Austin, Texas
Registered: 2014-02-21
Posts: 187

Re: Pantheon Shell on Archlinux

Alucryd wrote:

Xfce is also interesting, also a lot less tedious to configure, but I guess you already considered it. As for Gnome 3, I'd say it's not that bad, it has improved quite a bit over the years. I have it as my main DE, until Pantheon is ready that is.

Thanks for all the suggestions.  I will try the Openbox combo out.  When gnome 2 fritzed out and Ubuntu was shipping an unusable Unity, we switched to XFCE for a while.  It always seemed really awkward, but the oddest thing was that it was dog slow.  KDE on Ubuntu base is also slow, and KDE fans on reddit have suggested this only happens on Ubuntu (not sure how this can be).  For lack of a better alternative, though, we switched the default to KDE.  gnome 3 has vastly improved since then, and wouldn't be a horrible choice with some extensions for the people who aren't used to a "clutter free workspace".

To me, part of the mission is getting students excited about using linux, so I don't want to give them an interface that's comparable to Windows 98.  I hear the complaints about this from my own students all the time.  That's why I was excited about pantheon, and I'm sorry to hear that pantheon isn't ready for production use on Arch.  I'm sorely tempted to put one of my (CS) student assistants on the task of working on this pantheon code base, as there is no logical reason why Pantheon should be dependent on anything other than vanilla upstream source.

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#314 2014-06-11 23:23:47

metak
Member
Registered: 2009-09-27
Posts: 118

Re: Pantheon Shell on Archlinux

Anyone tried "candybar" to see if it works as a wingpanel+indicators replacement?

@ pgoetz

I tried running pantheon shell with ubuntu patched packages (gtk3, overlay-scrollbar, ido, bamf, etc.) from [unity-for-arch] repository and it worked really well.
Of course you would have to replace some of the official arch packages for this to work, so... not "pretty", but it worked.

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#315 2014-06-12 05:46:21

orschiro
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Registered: 2009-06-04
Posts: 2,136
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Re: Pantheon Shell on Archlinux

I'm sorely tempted to put one of my (CS) student assistants on the task of working on this pantheon code base, as there is no logical reason why Pantheon should be dependent on anything other than vanilla upstream source.

This would of course be fantastic. big_smile

As Orschiro suggested, you can also have a look at openbox (with compton or even gala if you want a bit of eye-candy), I used a combination of openbox, compton, conky and plank for a while and rather liked it.

What Alucryd is describing here is also the way I am working currently. Openbox is a nice and rock-solid basis which can be perfectly combined with compton, conky, plank, skippy-xd and brightside.

This is what I use currently and I am very happy with it. Feels like an adequate Pantheon alternative. smile

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#316 2014-06-12 07:49:49

Alucryd
Developer
From: France
Registered: 2011-05-07
Posts: 102
Website

Re: Pantheon Shell on Archlinux

metak wrote:

Anyone tried "candybar" to see if it works as a wingpanel+indicators replacement?

candybar looks interesting, it could definitely be used instead of wingpanel.

Now more on the question I asked on Launchpad, there was an answer this morning. It's in French, but Corentin says they still want to move away from any Ubuntu-patched dependency, and that includes ditching ayatana indicators. They prefer to keep them for now because changing would require a lot of work and there's only so much they can do with their limited resources. So, good news \o/


The bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.

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#317 2014-06-12 09:43:25

quequotion
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From: Oita, Japan
Registered: 2013-07-29
Posts: 473
Website

Re: Pantheon Shell on Archlinux

pgoetz wrote:

We end up using PPA's for everything, or having to build our own packages.   Also, I got disillusioned with Canonical when they first refused to switch from Upstart to systemd, even though it was clear that systemd was a superior solution and Upstart created tons of headaches for sys admins.  The final nail in the coffin was Mir, which a frequent commenter to this thread has also written about.  Mir is entirely unnecessary and the perfect example of NIH silliness.

Is that me? Maybe it isn't me, but I have made it abundantly clear that this is exactly how I feel. In fact, I'm using Archlinux today for all the reasons you listed.

If you look at the "Journal" on the elementaryos.org website, the only complaint you ever see (and it comes up frequently) is the software is too old and out of date for many users.  I already suggested to eOS that they should re-base elementary OS on Arch, but didn't get a response.  It's a small team, and they're probably swamped trying to get Isis out.

There's some hope they may rebase on Debian in the future, which would improve Pantheon's portability. At the moment, their whole development process is happening in Ubuntu and depends on a number of Canonical patches as a result. Most of those dependencies could be worked out without too many sleepless nights, but indeed their team is small. If it's in your power to help them shake off their dependence on Ubuntu, please do!

Pantheon is kind of like my junkie guitar-playing best friend: Brilliantly genius, but painfully held back by dependency.

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#318 2014-06-12 13:10:47

orschiro
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Registered: 2009-06-04
Posts: 2,136
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Re: Pantheon Shell on Archlinux

Here is an interesting post on how to customise Cinnamon to get the look and feel of Pantheon:

http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/ … mentaryos/

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#319 2014-06-12 13:23:36

quequotion
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From: Oita, Japan
Registered: 2013-07-29
Posts: 473
Website

Re: Pantheon Shell on Archlinux

>>Alucryd
I used your indicator-session package to create indicator-session-systemd because I could never get logout, reboot, shutdown to respond.

For reasons I do not understand, gnome-session-quit did not work with my desktop. Does it work for anyone else  who uses pantheon?

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#320 2014-06-12 13:32:56

Alucryd
Developer
From: France
Registered: 2011-05-07
Posts: 102
Website

Re: Pantheon Shell on Archlinux

I only used the indicator-datetime so I can't say. But if it works better your way, I'd rather have you patch indicator-session instead of creating a second package. The indicator has to be patched for systemd anyway. BTW, I've disowned all indicators except indicator-pantheon-session-bzr, so they're yours for the taking.

I finally got around fixing the deprecated gsettings keys in pantheon-default-settings-bzr so if you force install the package there will be no more warnings during package installations.

Edit: Just realized that the 0.3.X branch of wingpanel was merged into trunk, so it's not possible to build it anymore without Ubuntu-patched libindicator and gtk3 (and probably ido too).

orschiro: The panel does look like wingpanel, shame it's not a standalone component in cinnamon sad

Last edited by Alucryd (2014-06-12 13:42:15)


The bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.

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#321 2014-06-12 15:54:24

quequotion
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From: Oita, Japan
Registered: 2013-07-29
Posts: 473
Website

Re: Pantheon Shell on Archlinux

Alucryd wrote:

I only used the indicator-datetime so I can't say. But if it works better your way, I'd rather have you patch indicator-session instead of creating a second package. The indicator has to be patched for systemd anyway. BTW, I've disowned all indicators except indicator-pantheon-session-bzr, so they're yours for the taking.

If I find any that need work I may. As for indicator-session, the way I've patched it may prevent it from working without systemd. Although most Arch users use systemd, not necessarily all of them do; without a non-systemd installation for testing I'd rather keep it separate for now.

Does indicator-pantheon-session-bzr work with systemd? I have tried it, but the results were the same as other versions of indicator-session.

Also, any luck integrating things with (pantheon) online accounts?

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#322 2014-06-12 16:02:31

Alucryd
Developer
From: France
Registered: 2011-05-07
Posts: 102
Website

Re: Pantheon Shell on Archlinux

If you're not confident having your patch in indicator-session, then I guess it's best to keep it separate. indicator-pantheon-session-bzr still does not work, and with wingpanel as it is now, I see no reason to try and fix it. I can disown it however if you want to play with it. As for online accounts, I'm still confused as to why empathy does not pick my account, even though I rebuilt it with signon support. I haven't had time to fiddle with it for a month, I may get back to it soon though.


The bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.

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#323 2014-06-17 01:50:21

quadronick
Member
Registered: 2014-06-17
Posts: 4

Re: Pantheon Shell on Archlinux

What im doing wrong?
Looks like gala works but no top panel, no icons is start menu, no wallpaper.
But it start a mouse pointer.

https://yadi.sk/d/7qwUXJKPTeTGG

Last edited by quadronick (2014-06-17 01:51:17)

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#324 2014-07-03 21:16:25

ehabreda
Member
From: Qatar
Registered: 2011-07-22
Posts: 52
Website

Re: Pantheon Shell on Archlinux

Seems like there's no progress around here?!
I failed to install the wingpanel-bzr, any ideas?

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#325 2014-07-03 21:53:14

pgoetz
Member
From: Austin, Texas
Registered: 2014-02-21
Posts: 187

Re: Pantheon Shell on Archlinux

ehabreda wrote:

Seems like there's no progress around here?!
I failed to install the wingpanel-bzr, any ideas?

Someone feel free to jump in and correct me if I'm misunderstanding anything, but in terms of a complete deployment of Pantheon on Arch, everything is at a bit of a standstill at the moment.

The reason for this is the pantheon development group used a version of gtk3 modified by Canonical/Ubuntu to support session indicators (Elementary OS, for which pantheon was developed, is based on Ubuntu).  Arch's strict adherence to upstream means that a modified version of gtk3 will not be considered for inclusion in Arch (and, in fact, it would probably be a bad idea to do so -- modifying something like gtk3 is not the correct technical solution).  The relevant discussion can be found here.   The pantheon developers are open to the idea of re-implenting session indicators in a way which doesn't require modified primary libraries, but don't currently have the resources to do much, as they're working on releasing a new version of Elementary OS (Isis).

I'm going to jump in with a naive suggestion for the purposes of discussion:  why wouldn't you just implement wingpanel session indicators using dbus?

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