Switching friends to linux

Neuro · 2006-03-16 16:30:05

Two of my friends are thinking about moving to Linux/BSDs. They're guys who will begin studying telecommunication and information management next school year (finishing highschool just now). Apart from wanting to learn the *nix environments for their upcoming studies they sort of got pissed off by WinXP. Bear in mind, they never had a chance to facie anything except Windows and maybe DOS.

I thought about the distro I should suggest to them. Arch Linux works great for me, but I think that throwing them in such a deep pond would actually put them aback. Apart from that Arch requires some knowledge and tinkering to have it running smoothly after updates.

Personally, I thought about OpenSuse (one of them already installed it on his own and is currently playing around with it). It's easy to install, configure but hardly allows you to go behind the pretty gui (graphical useless interface ) to see some real system configuration. (K)Ubuntu is the same here, but additionally provides the sudo headache that wouldn't let them learn what real root means

Anyone has any suggestions?

Panu · 2006-03-16 17:29:03

If you recommend OpenSUSE, it's a good advice to give this link as well:

http://www.thejemreport.com/mambo/content/view/178/42/

It shows how to add sources, install Java, Flash, Realplayer, Mplayer, all codecs, Acroread, and enable watching DVDs.

Those things make people happy!

Neuro · 2006-03-16 17:54:14

Thanks. After having a glance at this it looks like a GUI-oriented guide. What they want to learn is the system. And yea, the perfect way to do that is going with a distro like Debian, Slackware or Arch. Although I belive they could understand how to use them, I doubt if they would be able to maintain them on their own.

I'm going to try out OpenSuse myself now. I hope it allows you to change thing via config files and doesn't enforce GUIs all the way like Mandriva does.

stonecrest · 2006-03-16 17:57:15

Neuro wrote:

(K)Ubuntu is the same here, but additionally provides the sudo headache that wouldn't let them learn what real root means

Why do you call it a headache? I set up my Arch box the same way.

Anyway, I'd just have them start with a distro like Ubuntu and leave it up to them if they want to duelve further into linux and try another distro like Arch. Might as well let them get their feet wet first.

codemac · 2006-03-16 20:26:44

It depends on what it is your friend wishes to get out of linux. Two kids who live near me both wanted to get ot know linux, one wanted a windows replacement, the other really wants to get into Linux. So one got ubuntu, the other got Arch. Mind you I'm keeping a close eye on the arch kid, and taking it step by step. If your friend wants to get to know linux the best they can you should try to start them far away from gui. It'll only force them to learn a gui that you eventually will want them to use less and less of.

jakob · 2006-03-16 21:24:46

I would consider myself in an equal state that your friends are in: Been using computers for 5-6 years now and very interested in them. Only experiences with WIndows (95-XP) and a bit of Dos + 2 days of Suse (7 or 8)...

So I started with Arch, but had nobody to ask but the irc-channel. And now I wrote my first bash-script which backs up /etc and /home with rsync!

And even if I'm not going to study something that has to do with computers, it was still nice to take the dive into the Linux world but it only was able to be done with a distro that really lets me set things up (install a DE, sound system and eeeeverything you have to do in Arch... that's the way to learn Linux in my opinion... learning by doing!)

Greets,

Jakob

Neuro · 2006-03-16 21:49:07

Well... I really thought about giving them the hard time and suggesting Arch. But the thing is, Arch isn't the most stable of systems, update-wise I mean, lately there have been some updates which could be disasterous for less experienced users. And I know that even if I guided them through the basics of maintaining Linux, they'd be clueless in such situations and I couldn't be there to fix it for them.

But we'll see The guy with SuSe is making progress. He figured out by himself that he hasn't got GL and went on a kamikaze-like fight against xorg.conf I think he'd need some help from me on that one.

Thanks for the tips.

rpgcyco · 2006-03-16 23:58:09

My friend has an interest in using Linux, I gave him Ubuntu, taught him how to use Apt-get, which he preferred to Synaptic, btw, and he was able to keep it updated and he never had a problem.

He stopped using it however, when his HDD went bust. When Dapper Drake comes out he wants to go back.

So based on my experiences, Ubuntu would be good for them.

- Rpg Cyco

ibrahim · 2006-03-17 00:27:02

Neuro wrote:

Personally, I thought about OpenSuse (one of them already installed it on his own and is currently playing around with it). It's easy to install, configure but hardly allows you to go behind the pretty gui (graphical useless interface ) to see some real system configuration.

I didn't realise that Opensuse had no terminal and no command line apps installed

Neuro wrote:

[(K)Ubuntu is the same here, but additionally provides the sudo headache that wouldn't let them learn what real root means
Anyone has any suggestions?

sudo su

gives you "real root". Just out of curiousity, what are these advantages that real root offers?

Neuro · 2006-03-17 07:02:02

ibrahim wrote:

I didn't realise that Opensuse had no terminal and no command line apps installed

Duh, I never said OpenSuse hasn't got any CLI apps. What I meant was, if you have GUI apps and are able to perform things using GUIs, it's less likely you'd ever discover the wonders of the CLI. And since they really would like to learn *NIX systems, it'd be better for them to be using CLI commands which are much more common than some fancy oh-im-so-easy-to-use GUI apps.

ibrahim wrote:

sudo su
gives you "real root". Just out of curiousity, what are these advantages that real root offers?

The real root account is the way by far most of *NIX systems are administered. And yea, I know about sudo su, but I'd rather like them to use the normal root account.

ibrahim · 2006-03-17 10:17:10

Neuro wrote:

ibrahim wrote:
I didn't realise that Opensuse had no terminal and no command line apps installed
Duh, I never said OpenSuse hasn't got any CLI apps. What I meant was, if you have GUI apps and are able to perform things using GUIs, it's less likely you'd ever discover the wonders of the CLI. And since they really would like to learn *NIX systems, it'd be better for them to be using CLI commands which are much more common than some fancy oh-im-so-easy-to-use GUI apps.

No, actually what you said was that suse "doesn't allow you" to go beyond the gui. Seeing as you know full well that it does I'm wondering why you might say that it doesn't. Now as to whether or not your pals will ever learn the cli, I'm unable to accurately predict the future but perhaps seeing as they are installing Linux in order to to learn the system I'd speculate that there is an at least moderate chance that they might actually invest some time into learning the system regardless of whether gui tools are available

Neuro wrote:

ibrahim wrote:
sudo su
gives you "real root". Just out of curiousity, what are these advantages that real root offers?
The real root account is the way by far most of *NIX systems are administered. And yea, I know about sudo su, but I'd rather like them to use the normal root account.

You gave the impression that they would be missing out on something, other than tab complete and less typing what is the advantage root offers? I'm far from a Linux expert so this is a genuine enquiry

Neuro · 2006-03-17 10:50:21

ibrahim wrote:

No, actually what you said was that suse "doesn't allow you" to go beyond the gui. Seeing as you know full well that it does I'm wondering why you might say that it doesn't. Now as to whether or not your pals will ever learn the cli, I'm unable to accurately predict the future but perhaps seeing as they are installing Linux in order to to learn the system I'd speculate that there is an at least moderate chance that they might actually invest some time into learning the system regardless of whether gui tools are available

Well, yea, sort of. Saying that there's nothing except GUI configuration apps was a bit of a thought shortcut.
As for their will to learn Linux... well I fear that it could be overcome by their habit of using GUIs and the mouse and the whole switch from win to *nix would rather become just a switch between desktop environments.

ibrahim wrote:

You gave the impression that they would be missing out on something, other than tab complete and less typing what is the advantage root offers? I'm far from a Linux expert so this is a genuine enquiry

I'm not saying that sudo way of doing things is bad. Personally, I don't like, but that's a matter of taste. But it's not about my taste either. My main argument is that is that just a handful of systems use this way of administration and it's faaar less common than the old root account.

jaboua · 2006-03-17 14:31:57

ibrahim wrote:

sudo su
gives you "real root". Just out of curiousity, what are these advantages that real root offers?

You can use "sudo -s" to perform the same thing.

I still prefer the good old root account, however I see the beauty of sudo, for example being able to set it up so that a user can run one command as root, and only that command for example.

Snarkout · 2006-03-17 15:02:58

Watch out for sudo -s -- it gives your normal user a root shell with their own env, and anything they create or save will be root owned and in their home directory. I personally use sudo -i out of habit though there are lots of other options. For a desktop, I think sudo is a good option - most users can't remember their password, let alone remember two *and* understand the distinction between root and user.

magnum_opus · 2006-03-19 03:18:18

i came into arch being a computer savy windows user, i had previously managed to install libranet and vector, but never did/learned/used them.
i managed to pick up arch pretty easily, at least when it breaks it's simple enough that i can fix it with a couple edits. and the file hierarchy is a hell of a lot more streamlined than say debian, which meant i was actually able to find things when i first started using it.

i wouldn't recommend it to some one who's computer illiterate, but its really not that bad as a first distro.

ibrahim · 2006-03-21 11:33:04

Neuro wrote:

My main argument is that is that just a handful of systems use this way of administration and it's faaar less common than the old root account.

This is very true but you need to bear in mind that anyone who understands how sudo works and the concept of root will have absolutely zero problems making the transition from using sudo to using root

kozaki · 2006-03-21 19:06:20

Dude, I really hope those big kids will make it, expecially those who want to get in Linux deeper

+1 to magnum_opus opinion.

Let say I get upset reading so many geek saying "Mandrake/~iva is evil ; you can't learn *nix with that ; it's 100% GUI"
Hey, how many hours did those guys use a MDV box ?

C'mon big guys! I myself with _no_ *nix background/experience or even *nix friends, entered Linux & Open Source on a Mandrake 8.0, and learned what "console" means fighting to make my USB+ADSL+VIA modem work (which I suceeded faster on MDK than on win98 ).

Even if I first used GUI tools, as they reassured the noob in me, I eventually used console more & more as I found it so powerfull (think about urpmi / rpmbuild vs rpmdrake & you'd know how I feel then).

Then came a summer when I had nothing interesting to do, so I went deeper & deeper into the system (Mandriva 9;x at this time).

Last year I heard about Arch & felt I was ready to try that "KISS" way I found it not difficult, as in a sense it only was the way I was using MDV but without the GUI options (that suck anyway).
I fully switched to Arch when I got a new computer.
Let me say I would never have even met console or Arch if I'd listened to those Debian addicts keeping saying "Mandrake is the wrong way".

Know I eventually have my own Open Source software training company.
That's it.

Arch Linux

#1 2006-03-16 16:30:05

Switching friends to linux

#2 2006-03-16 17:29:03

Re: Switching friends to linux

#3 2006-03-16 17:54:14

Re: Switching friends to linux

#4 2006-03-16 17:57:15

Re: Switching friends to linux

#5 2006-03-16 20:26:44

Re: Switching friends to linux

#6 2006-03-16 21:24:46

Re: Switching friends to linux

#7 2006-03-16 21:49:07

Re: Switching friends to linux

#8 2006-03-16 23:58:09

Re: Switching friends to linux

#9 2006-03-17 00:27:02

Re: Switching friends to linux

#10 2006-03-17 07:02:02

Re: Switching friends to linux

#11 2006-03-17 10:17:10

Re: Switching friends to linux

#12 2006-03-17 10:50:21

Re: Switching friends to linux

#13 2006-03-17 14:31:57

Re: Switching friends to linux

#14 2006-03-17 15:02:58

Re: Switching friends to linux

#15 2006-03-19 03:18:18

Re: Switching friends to linux

#16 2006-03-21 11:33:04

Re: Switching friends to linux

#17 2006-03-21 19:06:20

Re: Switching friends to linux

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