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#26 2004-02-10 20:59:53

scottro
Member
From: NYC
Registered: 2002-10-11
Posts: 466
Website

Re: Arch is a breath of fresh air ... 2 days with Arch so far.

Sometimes, people simply don't answer because they don't see the question, or they're busy, or they don't know.

Yes, one feels foolish at first, asking, well, how ~do~ I setuid root? 

I have to say though, in most cases, if people see you're making an effort, they're quite helpful.  For example, on my favorite irc channel, #freebsd on undernet, I've never seen anyone criticized for saying, I read the man page but don't understand this part.

Howeer, we all had to start somewhere.. Most of us remember that--I remember my first or second day with arch, asking how to do something on irc that was in the faq--as I consider myself a non-newcomer, that was highly embarrassing.  I was just being lazy.

So, as I often do, I have to agree with what Sarah said about people getting frustrated--I remember on one Linux list, devoted to newcomers, someone saying they felt it was a bit absurd to have to read a 40 page document to figure out how to install a very common video card. I have to agree.

Learning the commands can be tricky--there are some things I haven't figured out about Arch, for example, why a particular command that I put in rc.local doesn't work properly. As I'm a bit more experienced, I play with it, and would ask, if I can't figure it out, a more advanced question--however, even the masters have questions, there is always more to know.  (err, hopefully, that doesn't make it sound as if I consider myself a master)

So, we hope you stick around.

Scott

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#27 2004-02-10 21:29:46

jlowell
Member
Registered: 2003-08-10
Posts: 270

Re: Arch is a breath of fresh air ... 2 days with Arch so far.

It takes a man to make an apology, Pink Chick. God bless you!

jlowell

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#28 2004-02-10 23:16:11

i3839
Member
Registered: 2004-02-04
Posts: 1,185

Re: Arch is a breath of fresh air ... 2 days with Arch so far.

Pink Chick wrote:

I appologize for my words, my frustration was to big, and I should not let frustration rule my keyboard.

And when someone does let frustration rule his keyboard, people, please recognize that and handle it lightly instead of letting your frustration or annoyance rule your keyboard too. It also helps to keep things unpersonal and to avoid generalizations. And to take things not personal, even if they are formulated personally.

More on the topic of documentation:

When someone needs to figure out how to do something which isn't documented well yet, no matter where, then a short howto could be made (by the person who just figured out that certain issue or by the people which helped). This way a lot of things will get some sort of documentation rather quickly. Perhaps the forum could have a seperate howto section (or a wiki of course). If there is already existing documentation about it then a link to those docs can be posted with some additional info what the person needed to do differently or other useful tips. Also using existing good howtos and editing them for Arch isn't bad in any way, you don't need to write everything from scratch everytime.

I will switch to Arch soon (waiting a bit for Reiser4, but it seems stable enough to give it a try), I could make a sort of log of everything I did, how I got certain things to work and solved other problems, if any. Only problem may be that I will probably not do a typical installation (for instance, hd is already partitioned, I'll use my own kernel and will either use udev+hotplug or a static /dev).

[Edit: It seems that the wiki forum post is progressing nice, so a lot of what I said above is already done by that wiki. Then see my comment more as a general encouragement to always write something down when you struggled with something.]

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#29 2004-02-11 00:18:44

whol
Member
Registered: 2004-02-04
Posts: 155

Re: Arch is a breath of fresh air ... 2 days with Arch so far.

I see there is a "GNU/Linux Newbie Corner", how about an "Arch Linux Newbie Corner" - a place were any *Arch* question would not be considered a silly question?

Sometimes I feel dumb asking a question I know should be easy, and maybe the developers could actually avoid that corner.  The more experienced users could help out there.

For example, when I was at work I didn't have my notes with me, so I had to ask "how do I make sshd automatically start".  I was embarassed because I knew it was an easy question, which Sarach graciously answered.  I almost asked that question in the "GNU/Linux Newbie Corner", but I thought the question might be specific to Arch.

OR, should we go ahead and ask simple questions in the GNU/LINUX forum?

thx!

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#30 2004-02-11 04:30:06

rasat
Forum Fellow
From: Finland, working in Romania
Registered: 2002-12-27
Posts: 2,293
Website

Re: Arch is a breath of fresh air ... 2 days with Arch so far.

apeiro wrote:

I freely admit that the documentation is very sub-par.  It's improvement currently one of our higher priorities, but I think most of the real useful documentation will come from the community itself.  A few drafts have popped up on the forum over the last few months...

These drafts showing how to install / configure a particular hardware or software... "<b>way of doing things</b>" as mentioned recently on OS News, is the type of document in demand.

OS News wrote:

In fact the only recommendations I would have to the developers is more documentation on their website on the Arch Linux way of doing things such as installing sound cards or recompiling the kernel. There's plenty of help in their forums but one place to go for answers to common questions like this would save some time.

<b>Read more:</b> http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=5971

I think the new users are quite satisfied with the current main docs. But after base install asking for post configure docs. The post docs / drafts certainly will come from the users, "<b>from the community itself</b>", them having the day-to-day experience. Moreover, knowing what docs are needed. I hope the wiki system can be setup soon. From wiki the devs can pickup and edit docs wanted in official. Or keep them in wiki but having someone doing the "official" editing.


Markku

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#31 2004-02-11 23:09:00

tsykoduk
Member
From: A Chair
Registered: 2003-10-31
Posts: 48
Website

Re: Arch is a breath of fresh air ... 2 days with Arch so far.

I can see how the post install docs can be important to someone.

However, to me the are not all that important. I _like_ the comunity support that Arch has. I enjoy helping when I have time, and asking questions when I hit a brick wall.

I may not 100% agree with every choice that the developers make in re this distro - however - this is their baby, not mine. They have the skin in the game - I just am along for the ride. I will not wine or bitch when something is not there, or when something does not work like I feel that it should - I just accept it, or I make the change and submit it back. That is the way Open Source works, folks. It is a Community effort - not a single person.

I have gone back to SuSE several times (we have a SuSE webserver at work, and I am the resident Linux Guru - scary eh?) and I must say - I really do not like the complex way that they do things. I have 'seen' the light with Arch, and it's mantra is one that I have followed for years - Keep It Simple, Stupid, and it's outcome is raw speed. 8)

I have learned more about linux in the past months with Arch then I had in the two years playing with RedHat, Fedora, SuSE etc before. True, I learned a lot about RedHat and SuSE and Fedora - but those are toolsets on top of Linux - not Linux.

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#32 2004-02-20 16:29:58

beniro
Member
From: St. Petersburg, FL, USA
Registered: 2002-12-31
Posts: 313

Re: Arch is a breath of fresh air ... 2 days with Arch so far.

How about putting a link on the homepage like "Submit an Arch howto"?  Something like justlinux.com's newbie-ized help filesm where a user who has gone through a specific configuration adventure can document the process.

Titles could be something like:

Setting up your soundblaster live in Arch.
3D acceleration with your Radeon Ati...
Alsa-fying your system
setting your resolution for X in Arch.

I think this will be partially resolved once there is a real wiki up and running, but I think it would be very helpful if some EXTREMELY SPECIFIC FAQ's/howtos were encouraged, because it wouldn't be too much work for the users and would be an easy way for people to contribute.

The key for getting people to participate is making it as easy as possible.

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