Live CD for newbies and dial up users

rasat · 2004-02-17 04:53:07

From comments I am receiving abut the usage of AL-AMLUG Live CD, it helps newbies to install the native Arch Linux in HDD. Without any "headage" it does all the major configures (X, sound, network, and LILO) for you. The "hd-install" includes Hwd (hardware detect) and net-install with DHCP & ADSL setup.

Does sounds good for a newbie? Anything good also include a "but...". Disadvantage with hd-install, in my opinion, you will miss the learning of Arch Linux's configure system what you may need for post configure of new hardwares and programs..... sooner or later you have to become an Archer

The live CD is also for the "dial up users" with 56k modems, when the packages in Arch Linux's latest installer CD getting outdated. Example, AL 0.5 was released July 21, 2003. The current live CD 0.4.2 with the base, KDE and common packages updated on February 12, 2004.
http://amlug.net/new-projects/live-cd/p … list-0.4.2

GNOME users may not be happy. For your information, there is still 280MB space on the live CD for more packages. Total space: 1.3GB (compressed to 700MB).

AL-AMLUG Live CD project page:
http://amlug.net/new-projects/live-cd/a … ve-cd.html

sarah31 · 2004-02-17 06:43:17

oh yay! something that will ultimately create work for the community.

why continue to idiotize arch? if you cannot read and have no comprehension of what is in your computer or how to configure things by hand and don't want to learn then arch should not be for you.

i hate trying to help someone that cannot help themselve or is not even willing to try.

arch-fan · 2004-02-17 08:15:54

sarah31 wrote:

why continue to idiotize arch? if you cannot read and have no comprehension of what is in your computer or how to configure things by hand and don't want to learn then arch should not be for you.
i hate trying to help someone that cannot help themselve or is not even willing to try.

Well I think it works like in the economy; when you try to launch a new product in the trade the seller has to pass a barrier like the price of competition, the desired quality of the product etc. There are many things to overcome.

It is the same with Arch Linux, there are many things to lern in order to use it. And having the choise of autoconfigure means that you can learn this things one by one.

I remember that one of your post on Libranet forum about nvidia drivers very well and although I didn't understand everything of what you wrote I was able to compile the kernel and install Nvidia drivers for Libranet 2.7. Now I can figure Nvidia drivers in every distro by hand if I have to.(although they have released a a new installer that almost does everything)

There are many way how people learn to do something and this is one way which seems appealing to dial up users like me who can't do a lot of downloading.

Linux is freedom to use and freedom means choice taken out of your will.

arch-fan · 2004-02-17 08:16:33

sarah31 wrote:

why continue to idiotize arch? if you cannot read and have no comprehension of what is in your computer or how to configure things by hand and don't want to learn then arch should not be for you.
i hate trying to help someone that cannot help themselve or is not even willing to try.

Well I think it works like in the economy; when you try to launch a new product in the trade the seller has to pass a barrier like the price of competition, the desired quality of the product etc. There are many things to overcome.

It is the same with Arch Linux, there are many things to lern in order to use it. And having the choise of autoconfigure means that you can learn this things one by one.

I remember that one of your post on Libranet forum about nvidia drivers very well and although I didn't understand everything of what you wrote I was able to compile the kernel and install Nvidia drivers for Libranet 2.7. Now I can figure Nvidia drivers in every distro by hand if I have to.(although they have released a a new installer that almost does everything)

There are many way how people learn to do something and this is one way which seems appealing to dial up users like me who can't do a lot of downloading.

Linux is freedom to use and freedom means take a chance out of your will.

sarah31 · 2004-02-17 08:59:21

that is why i choze to move on. arch is continually heading in the opposite direction of kiss. what attracted me to the distro in the first place is continually getting buried. like gentoo arch is straying.

too bad because i liked it and it was going in the direction of teaching the "hard" aspects of linux to even the greenest of newbies. now it is a multiheaded beast.

EDIT:
btw i get so tired of that stupid "freedom" speech. face it the freedom for a distro to be focused to the "advanced" (so to speak) user ... one that does not like kludge or being forced to be newbie-ized ... is almost gone. there are few project out there with the balls to to say OUR policy is our policy and it will stay no matter what (currently crux, sorcerer, and slackware) tend not to bend to user demand (if it goes against their ideals)

rasat · 2004-02-17 10:03:29

arch-fan wrote:

I remember that one of your (sarah31) post on Libranet forum about nvidia drivers very well....
Now I can figure Nvidia drivers in every distro by hand if I have to.

"How-to" docs and this forum, are the keys for newbies to get started and quickly becoming advanced users.

"How-to" docs:
http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?t=2250

beniro · 2004-02-17 17:09:17

Thanks for the great work, rasat! This is bringing Arch's elegant system to a whole new group of users. Great!

Sarah: I have to say that it seems you often make approach other people's posts with offhanded disdain, both when people are describing their experience and when they're introducing their own CONTRIBUTIONS to the Arch community (as in this case).

I'd encourage you to fully embrace the open nature of Arch and Linux in general and quit making derogatory remarks in response to announcements of USERS' work, even when it "perverts" your beloved Arch Linux in new a incredible ways.

That said, I truly do appreciate your work within the community and it seems to me that when you are in a good mood you can be very helpful and patient. I only wish you would adopt this attitude more regularly.

Edit: It's not really that I think that your position about KISS is wrong, Sarah, it's just that you have come into the NEWBIE portion of the forum and proceeded to demonstrate an outstandingly bad attitude towards a project that isn't even part of the official Arch distribution. It's a USER CONTRIBUTION.

Projects like Rasat's numerous forays into making a more user-friendly Arch Linux certainly go along with the GPL ideology, and take nothing away from Arch proper.

In addition, AFAIK, the official Arch distro is not nearly as newbie-ized and diluted as you make it out to be.

At any rate, don't hide your bad attitude behind the guise of being "blunt" or "honest". In the spirit of being "honest" we should call it what it is...and I don't pretend to know you that well.

sarah31 · 2004-02-17 18:24:59

beniro wrote:

Sarah: I have to say that it seems you often make approach other people's posts with offhanded disdain, both when people are describing their experience and when they're introducing their own CONTRIBUTIONS to the Arch community (as in this case).

why should i embrace things that weaken the distro? why can i not express my opinion why i think such projects are not a benefit?

I'd encourage you to fully embrace the open nature of Arch and Linux in general and quit making derogatory remarks in response to announcements of USERS' work, even when it "perverts" your beloved Arch Linux in new a incredible ways.

feh whatever. when you have put in work for a distro you like and get consistently put on the defensive for your opinion and work in general then i will listen to you. i have been using linux for three and a half years and i find this "community" the most hostile derogatory environment.

linux is NOT freedom because freedom is a subjective POV. i have had linux users chastize me for using OS X, XP, and whatever else i want to. so don't go insinuating i am the only bad person here.

if you want freedom in any OS LEARN THE DAMN THING!!!!! the better you know your system and the OS the better able you are to actually contribute to the community. rasat knows his system well and i think it is great that he is working to help other people with linux but unfortunately he is playing to the laziness in all of us with his tools. the more green newbies he helps get into arch while still protecting them from what EVERY USER should know, the more work it is for the developers and regular forum users.

That said, I truly do appreciate your work within the community and it seems to me that when you are in a good mood you can be very helpful and patient. I only wish you would adopt this attitude more regularly.

you don't know me so don't assume anything. i am always pissed about something mostly NOT linux related. even if i am highly involved in a flamewar i can still function and help people. i do have patience i have more than you could imgine. since i chose to take a high profile here i have had a target on my back ever since.

in fact i have been targetted whereever i have gone. and it usually starts when someone puts me on the defensive and rips ME apart for an opinion i have made. i could not care less if you attck what i say just don't attack me for my words. you have never met me or hung out with me to know what kind of person i am. you will note that i did not call rasat anything nasty or queestion his personal being for any of the work he has done. i talked of the project and asked him a question why he chooses to keep doing things in this manner.

i am allowed to state an opinion and ask a question without people assuming or bestowing upon me all sort of derrogatory comments. check any of my posts i rarely attack or question a the moral makeup ... unless they attack mine ... i criticise the idea.

beniro · 2004-02-17 19:23:43

Thanks for your reply, Sarah. I assure you that my previous post was not an attack on you personally, only an observation and, at worst, possibly a bit of a complaint.

You do criticize the idea, Sarah, but mostly you tend to stray from pure constructive or informative criticism and employ derogatory or insulting language, IMHO. This reduces the ability of everyone to have meaningful discourse. Let's start a topic on the path the distro is taking and work on it that way.

I think that if this problem has followed you around wherever you've gone, it could be time to take a look in the mirror.

And, yes, you're right: I don't know you. The only contact I've had with you is from reading your 1000+ posts here on this board and all my comments reflect an opinion of mine based solely on these comments.

Like I said, I AM NOT criticizing you for your opinion, only the way you chose to state it and this is not the only time I've noticed this kind of reaction from you.

In closing, I just want to state that I surely do not know your levels of pacience or how much you put up with in the course of a day, I can only speak from personal experience when I say the following: it actually takes much less energy and pacience to respond in a productive manner than in an insulting one.

Hopefully, this way, we can all benefit from the kind, helpful Sarah even more than we already do/have.

rasat · 2004-02-18 15:37:55

sarah31 wrote:

... the more green newbies he (rasat) helps get into arch while still protecting them from what EVERY USER should know, the more work it is for the developers and regular forum users.
.... i talked of the project and asked him a question why he chooses to keep doing things in this manner.

I am glad you asked the question, why I am choosing to keep doing in this manner. Let me say this much, my style is based on my 20 years as a voluntary social worker.

Most likely this answer was not expected, and what has this to do with Arch Linux?
For me AL is not a distro but a community (growing rapidly out of its initial stage as a "fun" / "hobby") and doesn't differ from any other community work I have been doing if then in Africa, South East Asia or Australia.... we are here dealing with users (community members) with hope & aspiration and developers (community leaders) trying to keep up with users' desires at the same time holding to the foundation / principles of the distro (community).

Arch Linux's excellent product (distro) made me to take interest in AL. The progress and future of the product is based on spirit of the community (devs and users alike) and I thought giving a help in this aspect. I could have explained myself at the first place. But I doubt anyone would have listen on community matters when the attention is on the product itself (sarah31 is one of the few, I have seen on this forum, thinking / speaking in this line). And whenever said by anyone, its as a personal opinion rather than facts when there is no document about Arch Linux's principles and philosophy or a common voice on this forum (when I joined one year ago).

Community development starts with a common base same as there is a base packages for the distro. . To create a base with the help of Internet talks don't work but action speak by itself same as an artist speaks through his/her paintings. As a social worker building communities, I speak through my tools if then a clinic in Africa or package for AL e.g the Hwd brought up a lively discussion with sarah31 about AL's principles and that's how I got started.

Today with TUR, Users Contributions and the coming Wiki, etc. are all part of the community development regardless of who or what started them. And this development is a must if AL plans to continue with the same inspiration it has done so far. The OS News, influx of huge number of new users is only the beginning. To handle it, I will continue to "choose to keep doing things in this manner". And keep in mind, I am a community not a software developer and that's my actual user contributions.

nifan · 2004-02-19 00:44:01

well i cant speak for crux or sorcerer since i've never used them but slackware has live-cd's built then why sould not arch have one? the point i've got from sarah is that doing tools to make life easier is bad to the community, i dont think so. ill explain a situation: imagine you're on a diferent computer than your's, lets say in college or at a friend's or whatever, and you want to show to him the beuttiness of arch and you have no f*ck*n idea of the hw in his puter... what would you do, install arch from the oficial iso and spend some time, minutes hours whatever, just to show someone the "thing" well... i dont think so. having the power of choice is a good thing to have. this is just an hipotetical situation, but it could happen.
but i would like to know more of the things sarah believes arch is moving away from his K.I.S.S. way of doing things... as far as i can tell ... nothing really changed. well we've got some pretty good improvments like turs and amlug live cd (great job btw rasat )but the essencie remains the same i believe.
i still cant figure why you've changed distro, good for you to move on and found something better , but stop putting arch down, move on...

rasat · 2004-02-19 03:52:37

nifan wrote:

... the point i've got from sarah is that doing tools to make life easier is bad to the community, i dont think so.

I am sure sarah31 has a say in this. From my side, if you read carefully what she is saying (also in other topics) is the same / similar as what I said: "you will miss the learning of Arch Linux's configure system what you may need for post configure of new hardwares and programs".

It is an unwritten principle / philosophy of AL to not let configure tools / GUIs control over the system but be controlled by the user. Also there is nothing wrong of having GUIs as long as it follows this principle.

Unfortunately, this principle is not yet established in AL and said as a personal opinion thereby clashing the new users coming from GUI controlled distros. Moreover, in my opinion, to get an agreement among the developers (if this principle get established) how to develop such tools / GUIs what are both user-friendly, -learning and in user's control, may not be easy. This I noticed with the hwd (hardware detect) when modifying from knoppix's 100% auto-configure to non-auto including manual help instruction, as an experiment. But its possible.
http://amlug.net/new-projects/hwd/hwd.html

sarah31 · 2004-02-27 18:47:58

beniro,

after week of not even touching this thread i still have to say that i fail to see what is derogatory in my comments. derrogatory is where you put down something for the sake of putting something down. i hardly ever do something like that. i may be blunt but hardly ever derrogatory.

look in the mirror? i have done that alot i have looked in the mirror i have tried to understand the way some people came to the conclusioned they did about me. perhaps i a m blind or stupid but when have i ever not tried to get something positive for the community? when i look in that mirro i see someone who put alot of time and effort into helping the community with problems. i see somebody that where ever they have gone always express what they feel despite what blowback may happen. i don't believe in bottling things up. in the end though all people see is the negative.

nifan,

there are lots of ways to help a friend out installling any distro. but in the end if you don't know the guts then expect things to go bad at some point. linux is not designed for someone who just wants the computer to do everything. indeed if linux were like that then there would be a whole host of security risks presented.

as for me slamming arch. well if you didn't notice i having only been too willing to always air out arch's dirty laundry. i have been harping on the documentation and so have many others. should those others move on too while the developers/community continue to bury their heads in the sand and feel they can keep marching on? if somebody didn't do who would and where would arch be then?

i am here EVERYDAY. EVERYDAY since i joined this forum. i have asked and answered questions, i contributed on the irc channel, i worked for the distro everyday for almiost a year. i know what was going what went on. i still point out some thigns to aid the developers. in the end my view of kiss never really strayed from the documented version of arch's kiss statement and i felt arch had and was continuing to. there were just too many small things that bothered me and i decided to use another distro.

now that i have moved on though i needed something to keep my desire to help occupied and crux does not have a forum nor can i help out that much on irc because it is distro mainly used by europeans and our clock are just not synced. i still know arch fiarly well and actually crux is very similar so why not help. i have nothing against the community.

why do i get bitter then. well to beat dead horse. i try to help or try to voice an opinion and the response i commonly get back a tirade against my person. now it is at the point now where some people do not or refuse to see any constructive or helpful posts i make here. take al ook at rasat he is someone who has been the victim of many a criticism from me and he never once made any insults towards me nor did he ever not put the blinders on to what i was saying. after nearly a year of taking the odd jab from me he still knows exactly why make the comments towards his projects i do.

in the end i don't really care what he does as his work does bring people to the arch community. i just try and make sure that he can design his projects in such a way as to not create a pile of mindless users that need their hand held through everything. from what i remember of early versions of hwd for example he made it still a very hands on approach for the user. ultimately that is what i wanted him to hear and he did.

if you don't think that the system taking control of your work environment is a burden on the community take a look at just how much help we need to give here and on the mail list. if people had come from a more hands on environment they would rarely have to use irc, forums or mail lists. linux is hard to get used to because it is desigened to be hands on sytem and anyone who does not want this should really not be using it. thats mean but true. with ease comes security risks.

belive me i am lazy i came from the least hands on distro before arch and i would NEVER go back to distro not like arch or crux or ... i have learned alot and there is very few issues i cannot figure out. arch's kiss approach taught me alot and crux has brought me back to it.

in the end i am here to help and if you doubt that then well you just should not bother with any of my posts because i WILL piss you off eventually whether i am trying to or not.

Dusty · 2004-02-27 20:15:16

sarah31 wrote:

after week of not even touching this thread i still have to say that i fail to see what is derogatory in my comments. derrogatory is where you put down something for the sake of putting something down. i hardly ever do something like that. i may be blunt but hardly ever derrogatory.

I'm going to do something really unusual, for me, and say that I totally support Sarah31 in this thread.

sarah31 wrote:

look in the mirror? i have done that alot i have looked in the mirror i have tried to understand the way some people came to the conclusioned they did about me.

Don't look too hard. you'l get eye strain. You're a perfectionist, and don't have a clue why other people aren't. (laziness, I think)

sarah31 wrote:

i am here EVERYDAY. EVERYDAY since i joined this forum.

You need a break!

sarah31 wrote:

in the end i am here to help and if you doubt that then well you just should not bother with any of my posts because i WILL piss you off eventually whether i am trying to or not.

Sarah, you're doing a lot for the community, but what is the community doing for you? No wonder you're bitter.

On the original topic, I disagree with Sarah that Arch is moving away from KISS, but there are a lot of outside projects based on Arch that are. So many people want to bring Arch to a bigger community, a community of people that really shouldn't be using Arch. They try to add stuff to make it more user friendly, easier to use, etc. If this is going to happen, somebody is going to need to split Arch in half... make a version for the people that want it all done for them, and make a version for the people that want to do it themselves.

I believe a better way would be to leave arch with the community of users that it was designed for, and let the other users use something else. I don't understand when somebody says "I love Arch" and then demands some addition, GUI to pacman, more support for feature XYZ, etc. If you want Arch to look like Red Hat, get Red Hat.

Dusty

sarah31 · 2004-02-27 20:37:59

Dusty wrote:

Sarah, you're doing a lot for the community, but what is the community doing for you? No wonder you're bitter.

well they have done things for me but i just don't think they should take me too seriously all the time. i am a sarcastic old toad but i shouldn't have to explain that all the time.

[quoteOn the original topic, I disagree with Sarah that Arch is moving away from KISS,...

Dusty · 2004-02-27 21:14:59

sarah31 wrote:

well they have done things for me but i just don't think they should take me too seriously all the time. i am a sarcastic old toad but i shouldn't have to explain that all the time.

Hmmm. you could put that in your signature.

and that is just fine as i sort of attempted to define my kiss is different than yours .... god forbid that a bamber fan and a rider fan would agree more than handful of times a month

because I'm from SK I'm a rider fan? Bad assumption. Baaaaad.

i think the goal ultimately should be to have documentation good enough for those willing to put in the effort to be able to succeed without the hand holding.

Huge strides in that, with HOWTOs and wiki popping up, but still so many questions. I'm not a very big fan of forums, mostly because It makes me (and some others) rather belligerant. And the rest of the people get stupid and lazy. It's sooooo much easier to ask a question than to try to work out documentation.

well i can't totally agree with this but essentially it is my view.

No, It might kill me if you totally agreed with anything I said. You know, shock and all...

You know what? I'll shut up now, keep my eye on the wiki and not post here again until I have a problem that I can't resolve by myself. Yeah, good plan Dusty... just shut up now... NOW...

jlowell · 2004-02-27 23:09:58

Well sir, Mr. Dusty,

If you can find no way to improve upon

I totally support Sarah31 in this thread.

I'm afraid that you'll find me a rather persistent antagonist here in the future.

Frankly, I've pretty well had it with the volume of insults and abuse that issue so regularly from that quarter. Would it be necessary for me to explain just how it may have been that I would have responded had such as

oh yay! something that will ultimately create work for the community.
why continue to idiotize arch? if you cannot read and have no comprehension of what is in your computer or how to configure things by hand and don't want to learn then arch should not be for you.
i hate trying to help someone that cannot help themselve or is not even willing to try.

been directed at me?

What is so transparently dishonest about these episodes is that they are so regularly accompanied by nauseating stretches of a certain selfpity all-too-frequently disguised as concern for the distro and its future. If Sarah were really concerned about Arch and not about her current use of its forums as a kind of therapy, she'd be better able to measure her words and the impact that they may have on newcomers here. Truth be known, Sarah just doesn't care about anything more than directing attention to herself, witness this thread, eh? She's told us that she's moved on. Can we but hope?

jlowell

sarah31 · 2004-02-28 09:28:49

wah wah jlowell looking for self pity again.

i did not direct any comments at you except this one.

you have no concept of what i have experienced in linux john. you are as self absorbed as you make me out to be. you plead and cry for help and many have made their best efforts to keep you satisfied but in the end you often give up in frustration and blame developers or the community or whoever that is not you.

you seem to think that everyone should be at your beck and call to help you out. you feel that you have to try and play yourself as a good cop to everyone else's bad.

i do know that if i did not give a shit about arch i would not be here. what possible gain do i have of staying here if not to help where i can? call me a troll if you like but do a post count and you will see the the MAJORITY of my posts are helping or trying to help. i help even if do not like the person, want to help the person, or even if i know the person is fully capable of finding the answer with a few keystrokes.

all i have ever asked in return for my time is that people not criticise ME. but assholes like yourself have no ability whatsoever to do this. they feel their masculinity is challenged or whatever .. i cannot even fathom why.

when i express opinion or ideas i expect the same respect that others do in this forum in that the ideas/words be challenged and not my personality. is that too much to ask ... oh yes wait this poor little john lowell we are talking about.

there is nothing more annoying than some jackass bestowing titles upon you who you have never met or talked to. john i expect you have forgotten my attempt to help you find a place here at arch. when you came on the development team i was very happy that you were there and tried to make sure that you fit in. i tried (as did others) instruct you as to what to include in errror output-wise in your bug reports. i and other promptly acted on them.

oh whats the use obviously you could not give two shits what good anyone has done as long as you don't like them. hell if i resurrected you from an accidental death you would probably blame me for the death of <enter name here>.

now you have put someone who wants to make arch better too on your hate list. dusty never did anything to you nor call you any names and you have the audacity to start putting him down. what kind of person are you?

so you know too, emperor john, much of what i have said on forum here i have discussed at different time with developers and users like. so i hardly see that as transparent. alot of it was in private too. i have also passed on information to help developers on irc.

as for impact on the newbie. i would hope it would make them think really hard if they want to actually go through with the arch experience. actaully i hope alot of what EVERYONE said whould make them think. if being a mentally ill psycopath (as you have insinuated) is what it takes to get people to explore the inner workings of their machines and possibly their OS then they will be all the better for it. the more THEY know the more they will teach me in the future.

anyway. i ain't moving from this forum unless you want to get me banned and if you are successful all the power to you. i don't need it to live my life. i would miss helping out whoever i can though.

anyway nuff said have a good day all hope you enjoyed this venomous ranting from the neighborhood psycho bitch

Xentac · 2004-02-28 11:25:12

jlowell wrote:

Frankly, I've pretty well had it with the volume of insults and abuse that issue so regularly from that quarter. Would it be necessary for me to explain just how it may have been that I would have responded had such as
oh yay! something that will ultimately create work for the community.
why continue to idiotize arch? if you cannot read and have no comprehension of what is in your computer or how to configure things by hand and don't want to learn then arch should not be for you.
i hate trying to help someone that cannot help themselve or is not even willing to try.
been directed at me?

But it wasn't directed at you.

jlowell wrote:

What is so transparently dishonest about these episodes is that they are so regularly accompanied by nauseating stretches of a certain selfpity all-too-frequently disguised as concern for the distro and its future. If Sarah were really concerned about Arch and not about her current use of its forums as a kind of therapy, she'd be better able to measure her words and the impact that they may have on newcomers here. Truth be known, Sarah just doesn't care about anything more than directing attention to herself, witness this thread, eh? She's told us that she's moved on. Can we but hope?
jlowell

I have a tendancy to listen to Sarah's rantings. No matter how repetitive or harshly worded they may seem.

Why? Because she's a smart girl. She brings up good points and usually explains herself well. That's a lot better than a number of people around here can say (no John, that wasn't directed at you, stop getting all huffy).

She also has that nagging thing pretty well down and a lot of us need that or we forget things.

In case you haven't noticed I can be pretty curt, annoying, stubborn, harsh, and offensive to newcomers myself. Hate me for it if you want to, I've hit the point where I don't care either. I'm here to make a difference by contributing what I can, pushing the things I believe in, and helping people. I like to think I'm doing a pretty good job of it. I think that Sarah is doing the same.

If it comes down to worrying about people's feelings or standing up for what I believe in, I'll be standing and if you can't handle that then that's your problem.

jlowell · 2004-02-28 16:32:14

Xentac,

But it wasn't directed at you

Nor were these at you, interestingly.

I have a tendancy to listen to Sarah's rantings.

I think that's a pretty good way to describe what goes on with Sarah, at least at a subjective level. But at the level of the more purely objective, rants like hers usually translate as pathological. Anyone having a minimum of exposure to an urban environment is familiar with the common steet corner scold. But, seriously, to choose to listen to one?

In case you haven't noticed I can be pretty curt, annoying, stubborn, harsh, and offensive to newcomers myself.

And this your badge of courage, that you lack the maturity and self-control to be courteous? You elevate yourself somehow by being "curt, annoying, stubborn, harsh, and offensive to newcomers"? I mean the words are yours, Xentac.

If it comes down to worrying about people's feelings or standing up for what I believe in, I'll be standing and if you can't handle that then that's your problem.

And precisely who is it that you wish to reassure with a comment like this, Xentac, yourself perhaps?

jlowell

Xentac · 2004-02-28 17:43:49

jlowell wrote:

In case you haven't noticed I can be pretty curt, annoying, stubborn, harsh, and offensive to newcomers myself.
And this your badge of courage? You elevate yourself somehow by being "curt, annoying, stubborn, harsh, and offensive to newcomers"? The words are yours, Xentac.

I am surprised I have to explain this to you. I am like Sarah: you hate her, you hate me.

jlowell wrote:

If it comes down to worrying about people's feelings or standing up for what I believe in, I'll be standing and if you can't handle that then that's your problem.
And precisely who is it that you wish to reassure with a comment like this, Xentac, yourself perhaps?
jlowell

I'm not reassuring anyone: I'm saying like it or lump it. This is the way I am and this is the way Sarah is. You ragging on her won't change either of us.

jlowell · 2004-02-28 18:14:53

Xentac,

I am like Sarah

Then you can expect exactly the same from me that she can.

you hate her, you hate me

Oh, I think its far more a case of pitying Sarah than hating her, Xentac. And we can include you in the pitying if you'd like.

I'm not reassuring anyone.

Uh huh, I see.

jlowell

Dusty · 2004-02-28 19:13:16

jlowell, how old are you?

Mr Green · 2004-02-28 19:16:09

Someone close this thread now !

enough is enough!

robot5x · 2004-02-28 19:47:41

hear hear
send in the moderators...

Arch Linux

#1 2004-02-17 04:53:07

Live CD for newbies and dial up users

#2 2004-02-17 06:43:17

Re: Live CD for newbies and dial up users

#3 2004-02-17 08:15:54

Re: Live CD for newbies and dial up users

#4 2004-02-17 08:16:33

Re: Live CD for newbies and dial up users

#5 2004-02-17 08:59:21

Re: Live CD for newbies and dial up users

#6 2004-02-17 10:03:29

Re: Live CD for newbies and dial up users

#7 2004-02-17 17:09:17

Re: Live CD for newbies and dial up users

#8 2004-02-17 18:24:59

Re: Live CD for newbies and dial up users

#9 2004-02-17 19:23:43

Re: Live CD for newbies and dial up users

#10 2004-02-18 15:37:55

Re: Live CD for newbies and dial up users

#11 2004-02-19 00:44:01

Re: Live CD for newbies and dial up users

#12 2004-02-19 03:52:37

Re: Live CD for newbies and dial up users

#13 2004-02-27 18:47:58

Re: Live CD for newbies and dial up users

#14 2004-02-27 20:15:16

Re: Live CD for newbies and dial up users

#15 2004-02-27 20:37:59

Re: Live CD for newbies and dial up users

#16 2004-02-27 21:14:59

Re: Live CD for newbies and dial up users

#17 2004-02-27 23:09:58

Re: Live CD for newbies and dial up users

#18 2004-02-28 09:28:49

Re: Live CD for newbies and dial up users

#19 2004-02-28 11:25:12

Re: Live CD for newbies and dial up users

#20 2004-02-28 16:32:14

Re: Live CD for newbies and dial up users

#21 2004-02-28 17:43:49

Re: Live CD for newbies and dial up users

#22 2004-02-28 18:14:53

Re: Live CD for newbies and dial up users

#23 2004-02-28 19:13:16

Re: Live CD for newbies and dial up users

#24 2004-02-28 19:16:09

Re: Live CD for newbies and dial up users

#25 2004-02-28 19:47:41

Re: Live CD for newbies and dial up users

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