Starting off with Arch Linux as a beginner

johnnyhoffmann32 · 2016-07-02 02:58:11

Hello, I've just started off with Manjaro and I really like it, but when is a Linux user ready to harness the power of Arch Linux?

I have followed Youtube tutorials that go into the Installation of Arch Linux, and as I type commands in I'm referencing to the Installation/ Beginners guide as well.

I have asked on the Manjaro forums https://forum.manjaro.org/t/when-is-a-l … ux/4915/67 but there is no right or wrong answer.

Last edited by johnnyhoffmann32 (2016-07-02 02:59:16)

ewaller · 2016-07-02 03:12:33

Hello,

And welcome to Arch Linux. Unfortunately, Manjaro is not Arch Linux and has some significant differences. So, we will not be able to help you here.
Arch is intended to be used by the experienced Linux user; but there are no metrics that define that. As long as you are willing to read, and study, and think for yourself, you can jump right in. We will not spoon feed you. We will not think for you. If you install Arch Linux using the beginner's guide, and if you do your research, and you don't get offended when we don't think you have done your research and we tell you to go RTFM (because you should); you will do fine. But, do not expect to be spoon fed or otherwise coddled. You will find that doing research before you ask for help will be met with a cornucopia of help. Failure to do so will be met with crickets -- or worse.

johnnyhoffmann32 · 2016-07-02 03:20:39

Yep. I'm willing for the challenge. I'm currently installing it with the Architect Installer on a testing machine. I have installed it by typing in commands though. That's the answer I was looking for. Thanks

Last edited by johnnyhoffmann32 (2016-07-02 03:25:10)

fsckd · 2016-07-02 03:25:21

johnnyhoffmann32 wrote:

Yep. I'm willing for the challenge. I'm currently installing it with the Architect Installer on a testing machine. I have installed it by typing in commands though. That's the answer I was looking for. Thanks

Architect is not Arch Linux. It is a separate distribution which we do not support.

johnnyhoffmann32 · 2016-07-02 04:28:30

What do you mean?

jasonwryan · 2016-07-02 04:31:48

Architect is not Arch. It is unsupported here: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Co … pport_ONLY

tomk · 2016-07-02 07:47:10

There are two, and only two, supported install methods for Arch - the Installation Guide or the Beginners' Guide. To clarify that further, the Installation Guide is created and maintained by the Arch Developer Team and is therefore the only truly officially supported method. The Beginners' Guide is created and maintained by the Arch community, and is supported by that community.

DO use the Beginners' Guide, do your research, ask properly formatted questions if the need arises.

DON'T use any other distro, or installer, or youtube video, or blog, or...

dakota · 2016-07-02 20:35:39

johnnyhoffmann32 wrote:

... when is a Linux user ready to harness the power of Arch Linux?

What power?

To me, the 'power' of Arch Linux is that it gives me the power to create the system that I want to run. But with great power, comes great responsibility... the responsibility to learn about the system that you're trying to build.

From one newbie to another, I'll tell you straight-up that Arch is hard. The reason it is hard is that using Windows/Mac/Ubuntu does not prepare you to understand how computers work. When installing Arch you will be confronted with many, many choices and unless you know what you want to achieve, those choices will not be easy. You can probably read the Installation Guide and Beginner's Guide and install Arch (the first time) in a few days. But whether you learn anything in the process, and whether you are satisfied with the result, will depend on yourself!

If you just want things to work right out of the box (and have your hand held)... then you might never be ready for Arch.

On the other hand, if you are the type of person who jumps right in and fixes things when you break them... you might be ready for Arch right now (because you will definitely break things).

If your will is strong, but your skill is weak, you might consider a tutorial or two before starting with Arch...

Zed Shaw has a series of web tutorials called "Learn xx the Hard Way" [python, ruby, C, SQL, Regex, CLI]. He calls his method 'the hard way' because it requires memorization and repetition. You type in all the commands, and when they don't work, you troubleshoot why. I found the Command Line Crash Course (CLI) particularly good.

Another web tutorial that I found to be very useful was Linux Journey: Learn the Ways of Linux-fu for Free.

And finally, you might take a look at Linux Command Line and Shell Scripting Bible, 3rd Edition. This is a reference, not an interactive resource, but the beginning chapters are easily accessible for a beginner who has worked through the previous tutorials.

Good luck on your journey!

Cheers,

Rethil · 2016-07-03 09:11:02

I'm using linux in general for 8 years now, so I'm newbie myself compared to majority (I think) of Arch community. To answer the question: if someone don't know what makes him ready or if he's ready, he's probably not.

I disagree with dakota, Arch is not hard to install and maintain, it becomes hard if you want it to, simple as that.
Compare Arch installation on 2x ext4 partitions + swap to btrfs for root + subvols mount points for /opt, /usr/local, /var/opt and so on + xfs home on lvm with cachepool on ssd, and let's put there LUKS to make things harder. Ok, now someone could have hard times installing it, but base install + DE that just works is easy.

Last edited by Rethil (2016-07-03 09:11:42)

dockland · 2016-07-03 09:25:41

In these times we are fortunate enough to have utilities like Virtualbox/VM Ware player, that makes practicing easy(ier)
I learnt the basics that way, e.g. partitioning, partitioning EFI, install commands, whilst reading and following the wiki.
Keep in mind that virtualbox installation somehow differs in some aspects.
Just make sure when ever installing on bare metal, that you have the wiki around. I use to use my phone or tablet.

graysky · 2016-07-03 09:34:10

I started a linux newbie friend off with Arch rather than Debian or Ubuntu first. Initially, I did the setup but he eventually grew into it. I don't think that Arch is that unwieldy when coupled with the wiki, google, and bbs.

dockland · 2016-07-03 09:39:22

graysky wrote:

I started a linux newbie friend off with Arch rather than Debian or Ubuntu first. Initially, I did the setup but he eventually grew into it. I don't think that Arch is that unwieldy when coupled with the wiki, google, and bbs.

This!

TheChickenMan · 2016-07-03 10:10:40

graysky wrote:

I started a linux newbie friend off with Arch rather than Debian or Ubuntu first. Initially, I did the setup but he eventually grew into it. I don't think that Arch is that unwieldy when coupled with the wiki, google, and bbs.

Not sure how it keeps that newbie friendly reputation. All distros with a solid gui installer are really equally easy and apt/dpkg is kind of a pain to work with. Fedora or something on its base like Scientific Linux is a better choice for someone that is new. Arch is pretty dead simple to setup and maintain a standard installation. This is actually one of its biggest strengths I think. Things like basic packaging or installing a modified/different version of a package are much more simple in Arch. As long as someone has the basic necessities down they should be good-to-go. Also, virtual machines make great practice and can be blown away with no fear or remorse.

A basic knowledge of linux software and terms such that you can use the wiki or google to find answers. This includes things like LVM, kernel, ext4, chmod, etc.
At least an idea of what you want to accomplish with your system. It's possible to research and make a decision about every little thing or to make changes later but it saves time to know where you would like to go before starting the journey.
Basic understanding of the command line. All of the installation process and much of the system maintenance is done in command line so someone is expected to know things like how to edit a text file or input and modify simple commands.
A desire to read, learn, do one's own research and to contribute to the Arch community.

Last edited by TheChickenMan (2016-07-03 10:12:15)

dockland · 2016-07-03 10:27:58

TheChickenMan wrote:

graysky wrote:
I started a linux newbie friend off with Arch rather than Debian or Ubuntu first. Initially, I did the setup but he eventually grew into it. I don't think that Arch is that unwieldy when coupled with the wiki, google, and bbs.
Not sure how it keeps that newbie friendly reputation. All distros with a solid gui installer are really equally easy and apt/dpkg is kind of a pain to work with. Fedora or something on its base like Scientific Linux is a better choice for someone that is new. Arch is pretty dead simple to setup and maintain a standard installation. This is actually one of its biggest strengths I think. Things like basic packaging or installing a modified/different version of a package are much more simple in Arch. As long as someone has the basic necessities down they should be good-to-go. Also, virtual machines make great practice and can be blown away with no fear or remorse.
A basic knowledge of linux software and terms such that you can use the wiki or google to find answers. This includes things like LVM, kernel, ext4, chmod, etc.
At least an idea of what you want to accomplish with your system. It's possible to research and make a decision about every little thing or to make changes later but it saves time to know where you would like to go before starting the journey.
Basic understanding of the command line. All of the installation process and much of the system maintenance is done in command line so someone is expected to know things like how to edit a text file or input and modify simple commands.
A desire to read, learn, do one's own research and to contribute to the Arch community.

My experience regarding the "hard parts" of the installation was often related to partitioning and getting x to work (with various graphic cards) . So there i put my effort in learning/training. So first time i managed to do a sucessful base install, i wiped it away (virtualbox), doing it again, and again and again. The same with getting a DE up and running (and autostarting, with greeter and so on)

TheChickenMan · 2016-07-03 10:58:36

dockland wrote:

My experience regarding the "hard parts" of the installation was often related to partitioning and getting x to work (with various graphic cards) . So there i put my effort in learning/training. So first time i managed to do a sucessful base install, i wiped it away (virtualbox), doing it again, and again and again. The same with getting a DE up and running (and autostarting, with greeter and so on)

I agree. I think fdisk is easier to work with than the default partitioner suggested by the beginner's guide (parted I think?) so I use that now. Getting X and its associated drivers to start along with your DE is also a bit of a hurdle. Neither are so bad after a couple of dry runs in a virtual machine though. I also recommend watching a youtube video install or two first. DO NOT follow a video tutorial as your instruction set as it is unsupported but getting a chance to watch someone doing it a couple of times before going to the beginner's guide on the wiki does help to give a feel for what's going on and what needs to be looked out for.

dakota · 2016-07-03 19:17:58

Rethil wrote:

I disagree with dakota, Arch is not hard to install and maintain, it becomes hard if you want it to, simple as that.
Compare Arch installation on 2x ext4 partitions + swap to btrfs for root + subvols mount points for /opt, /usr/local, /var/opt and so on + xfs home on lvm with cachepool on ssd, and let's put there LUKS to make things harder. Ok, now someone could have hard times installing it, but base install + DE that just works is easy.

I think you make my point for me!

What is ext4? What are partitions? What is swap? What are subvols? What are mount points? What is /var/opt and so on? What is lvm? What is cachepool? What is LUKS?

To be clear, Arch can be as easy or as hard as you make it... but it requires a much higher base knowledge, and has a much higher learning curve, than Windows/Mac/Ubuntu.

Some people approach the Beginner's Guide as if it were a recipe... they follow the steps literally, not knowing when they should substitute variables or customize the process based on their own ends. This causes many errors. To resolve those errors, one must understand how the Arch process (and Linux, generally) work.

Specifically, one must understand: the command line, partitioning, the boot process, networking, file systems, change root, mounting and unmounting, environment variables, file permissions, redirection, package management, and many other specifics. The links I referenced will help a newbie get up to speed and make the installation process a learning experience rather than an instrument of torture. (And by 'newbie' I do not mean someone who is new to Arch, but has extensive computer experience... I mean someone who is new to the whole process of installing and maintaining a computer!)

Cheers,

dockland · 2016-07-03 19:44:05

dakota wrote:

Rethil wrote:
I disagree with dakota, Arch is not hard to install and maintain, it becomes hard if you want it to, simple as that.
Compare Arch installation on 2x ext4 partitions + swap to btrfs for root + subvols mount points for /opt, /usr/local, /var/opt and so on + xfs home on lvm with cachepool on ssd, and let's put there LUKS to make things harder. Ok, now someone could have hard times installing it, but base install + DE that just works is easy.
I think you make my point for me!
What is ext4? What are partitions? What is swap? What are subvols? What are mount points? What is /var/opt and so on? What is lvm? What is cachepool? What is LUKS?
To be clear, Arch can be as easy or as hard as you make it... but it requires a much higher base knowledge, and has a much higher learning curve, than Windows/Mac/Ubuntu.
Some people approach the Beginner's Guide as if it were a recipe... they follow the steps literally, not knowing when they should substitute variables or customize the process based on their own ends. This causes many errors. To resolve those errors, one must understand how the Arch process (and Linux, generally) work.
Specifically, one must understand: the command line, partitioning, the boot process, networking, file systems, change root, mounting and unmounting, environment variables, file permissions, redirection, package management, and many other specifics. The links I referenced will help a newbie get up to speed and make the installation process a learning experience rather than an instrument of torture. (And by 'newbie' I do not mean someone who is new to Arch, but has extensive computer experience... I mean someone who is new to the whole process of installing and maintaining a computer!)
Cheers,

I have a friend that started out with computers when he was 12 back in 2003. The first (and only) OS he have ever used is Gentoo.
I'm not sure he can manage a windows och mac-install. He have never tried. Never used them nor installed any other OS than Gentoo. He is 25 now and are doing well

TheChickenMan · 2016-07-03 20:28:22

dakota wrote:

[What is ext4? What are partitions? What is swap? What are subvols? What are mount points? What is /var/opt and so on? What is lvm? What is cachepool? What is LUKS?
To be clear, Arch can be as easy or as hard as you make it... but it requires a much higher base knowledge, and has a much higher learning curve, than Windows/Mac/Ubuntu.
Some people approach the Beginner's Guide as if it were a recipe... they follow the steps literally, not knowing when they should substitute variables or customize the process based on their own ends. This causes many errors. To resolve those errors, one must understand how the Arch process (and Linux, generally) work.
Specifically, one must understand: the command line, partitioning, the boot process, networking, file systems, change root, mounting and unmounting, environment variables, file permissions, redirection, package management, and many other specifics. The links I referenced will help a newbie get up to speed and make the installation process a learning experience rather than an instrument of torture. (And by 'newbie' I do not mean someone who is new to Arch, but has extensive computer experience... I mean someone who is new to the whole process of installing and maintaining a computer!)
Cheers,

The problem is that these are NOT things which you will learn by running a "newbie" linux distribution normally for longer time but only by having a desire to learn about them. They are learned by reading manuals and the wiki. They are learned through experimentation with your system, by breaking things to see how they work. You have to be a person that WANTS to do those sort of things more than simply someone that has used "a linux" for longer.

surfatwork · 2016-07-04 17:00:39

Arch is not hard. but it does require one to read and understand just a little bit. a bit more of typing instead of clicking...and that's it

Rethil · 2016-07-05 03:23:53

dakota wrote:

Rethil wrote:
I disagree with dakota, Arch is not hard to install and maintain, it becomes hard if you want it to, simple as that.
Compare Arch installation on 2x ext4 partitions + swap to btrfs for root + subvols mount points for /opt, /usr/local, /var/opt and so on + xfs home on lvm with cachepool on ssd, and let's put there LUKS to make things harder. Ok, now someone could have hard times installing it, but base install + DE that just works is easy.
I think you make my point for me!
What is ext4? What are partitions? What is swap? What are subvols? What are mount points? What is /var/opt and so on? What is lvm? What is cachepool? What is LUKS?
To be clear, Arch can be as easy or as hard as you make it... but it requires a much higher base knowledge, and has a much higher learning curve, than Windows/Mac/Ubuntu.
Some people approach the Beginner's Guide as if it were a recipe... they follow the steps literally, not knowing when they should substitute variables or customize the process based on their own ends. This causes many errors. To resolve those errors, one must understand how the Arch process (and Linux, generally) work.
Specifically, one must understand: the command line, partitioning, the boot process, networking, file systems, change root, mounting and unmounting, environment variables, file permissions, redirection, package management, and many other specifics. The links I referenced will help a newbie get up to speed and make the installation process a learning experience rather than an instrument of torture. (And by 'newbie' I do not mean someone who is new to Arch, but has extensive computer experience... I mean someone who is new to the whole process of installing and maintaining a computer!)
Cheers,

Fair point. I tend to forget that what I learned is not common knowledge for everyone.

dockland · 2016-07-05 05:53:23

Rethil wrote:

dakota wrote:
Rethil wrote:
I disagree with dakota, Arch is not hard to install and maintain, it becomes hard if you want it to, simple as that.
Compare Arch installation on 2x ext4 partitions + swap to btrfs for root + subvols mount points for /opt, /usr/local, /var/opt and so on + xfs home on lvm with cachepool on ssd, and let's put there LUKS to make things harder. Ok, now someone could have hard times installing it, but base install + DE that just works is easy.
I think you make my point for me!
What is ext4? What are partitions? What is swap? What are subvols? What are mount points? What is /var/opt and so on? What is lvm? What is cachepool? What is LUKS?
To be clear, Arch can be as easy or as hard as you make it... but it requires a much higher base knowledge, and has a much higher learning curve, than Windows/Mac/Ubuntu.
Some people approach the Beginner's Guide as if it were a recipe... they follow the steps literally, not knowing when they should substitute variables or customize the process based on their own ends. This causes many errors. To resolve those errors, one must understand how the Arch process (and Linux, generally) work.
Specifically, one must understand: the command line, partitioning, the boot process, networking, file systems, change root, mounting and unmounting, environment variables, file permissions, redirection, package management, and many other specifics. The links I referenced will help a newbie get up to speed and make the installation process a learning experience rather than an instrument of torture. (And by 'newbie' I do not mean someone who is new to Arch, but has extensive computer experience... I mean someone who is new to the whole process of installing and maintaining a computer!)
Cheers,
Fair point. I tend to forget that what I learned is not common knowledge for everyone.

True. There are so many ways to install Arch. The beginners guide is great, but if followed grants you an Arch install up and running. Not necessary optimized, based on how much effort (time) you give your installation.
I alter a lot during install but that's purely based on how i want my Arch to run kinda optimized for my HW.

johnnyhoffmann32 · 2016-07-05 08:31:49

Yeah Arch Linux is a great distro. After the work of installation, it's really very easy to use after that. I had wireless issues and touchpad issues. But it turned out that I was missing some packages when I had a look at the tutorials on Youtube, the Architect Installer and the Arch Linux Manual https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=211477

Last edited by johnnyhoffmann32 (2016-07-05 08:40:10)

Awebb · 2016-07-05 09:00:39

When I started with Linux, there weren't even live CDs or fancy installers. Everything had to be done manually, everything had to be understood. Arch today is what we would have considered easy mode back then. If early teenage me could manage a source based Linux system, you can play with that all-set-and-done distro.

Installing Arch is a no-brainer.

jasonwryan · 2016-07-05 09:03:09

johnnyhoffmann32 wrote:

I had a look at the tutorials on Youtube, the Architect Installer and the Arch Linux Manual.

As has been pointed out to you more than once already, Architect is not Arch and not supported here.

TheChickenMan · 2016-07-05 09:07:36

Rethil wrote:

Fair point. I tend to forget that what I learned is not common knowledge for everyone.

The truth is though that while you don't "need" to know about all that stuff when installing and doing basic tasks on most other operating systems, you still should really know about them. You need to know those things when your OS has a problem, something goes wrong or doesn't work right out of the box. Even though Arch requires more baseline to install and use I find that it's actually easier to fix when something has a problem. Nothing is configured for you and thus there are no black-boxed tools to worry about. Everything is done very simply. You can easily modify it yourself when you need.

Packaging is an extreme example of this. If you have a problem with a version of a program in Arch it's trivial to edit the PKGBUILD and roll your own. Needing to do the same in Fedora for instance is a major pain by comparison. I really like the feeling that Arch gives me. My computer is MINE. I'm sitting in the captain's chair and it does what I want not what someone else told it to do for me.

Arch Linux

#1 2016-07-02 02:58:11

Starting off with Arch Linux as a beginner

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