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#1 2017-04-04 20:59:48

olegabrielz
Member
From: Norway
Registered: 2015-12-23
Posts: 210

Code tags vs pastebin

Code of conduct - Pasting pictures and code, wrote:

Please use code tags when pasting console snippets. Please use a pastebin client when posting large amounts of code.

My question is pretty straightforward: Where is the imaginary line between snippets and large amounts of code?

I understand that a full journalctl output is a large amount of code. And that the output of lsusb is considered a snippet. But I can't find a way to understand where to draw the line between those two definitions.

Edit: People in this thread have some great points, so I will post some of them here in my OP. The list is not necessarily just  a clean copy of the source, but can also be influenced by or made by combining sources with the same content or points. Feel free to make suggestions making it good and readable for those who bother to read it.

Things to take into consideration
  • Relevance: Is the content of the code/log directly relevant and absolutely necessary for the queston/problem at hand, then err on the side of code tags.  If the code/log is only potentially relevant and provided as supplemental material then err on the side of links. (source: Trilby).

  • The downside of pastebins are expired pastes. Also, text in linked pastes do not show up when searching the forums. (source: fsckd).

  • Unlike the GUI web browsers, text-based web browsers does handle code tags as ordinary text. So if it's more than few screen long, it becomes painful to scroll to the next posts. (source: Docbroke).

  • Make sure it doesn't suck. It's not how long your dump is, it's how much work you have already put into it. (source: Awebb).

  • The baseline here is to use common sense (if you don't have it, use pastebin).

Last edited by olegabrielz (2017-04-18 13:13:18)


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#2 2017-04-04 21:03:24

jasonwryan
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From: .nz
Registered: 2009-05-09
Posts: 21,514
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Re: Code tags vs pastebin

Common sense. For me, an xorg.log is about the most I will scroll through in code tags.

Also, when people ask to see the relevant lines of the journal, they don't mean just dump the entire output of journalctl into a pastebin or code tags. Lennart made it easy to drill into the journal, and the wiki documents how to do it.


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#3 2017-04-04 21:35:43

olegabrielz
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From: Norway
Registered: 2015-12-23
Posts: 210

Re: Code tags vs pastebin

jasonwryan wrote:

Common sense. For me, an xorg.log is about the most I will scroll through in code tags.

Sorry for saying this (I still consider myself a newbie): That's a pretty vague answer. Common sense in a question like this is pretty individual and difficult to measure. That could even vary a lot from day to day from the same person, depending on mood and stress level. And scrolling through code tags vs pastebin isn't that just about the same?

Please don't bite my head off. I don't say this to be difficult. I just want to understand the difference.

jasonwryan wrote:

Also, when people ask to see the relevant lines of the journal, they don't mean just dump the entire output of journalctl into a pastebin or code tags. Lennart made it easy to drill into the journal, and the wiki documents how to do it.

This I think I understand - If by drill into you are referring to filtering?


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#4 2017-04-04 21:43:48

jasonwryan
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From: .nz
Registered: 2009-05-09
Posts: 21,514
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Re: Code tags vs pastebin

olegabrielz wrote:
jasonwryan wrote:

Common sense. For me, an xorg.log is about the most I will scroll through in code tags.

Sorry for saying this (I still consider myself a newbie): That's a pretty vague answer. Common sense in a question like this is pretty individual and difficult to measure. That could even vary a lot from day to day from the same person, depending on mood and stress level. And scrolling through code tags vs pastebin isn't that just about the same?

There is no absolute answer. We aren't about to impose a character limit (people don't read the Code now anyway). As long as they choose one or the other, they are OK (except, as I noted above, dumping a huge file into code tags just means that I, and I suspect many others, will just ignore it).


olegabrielz wrote:
jasonwryan wrote:

Also, when people ask to see the relevant lines of the journal, they don't mean just dump the entire output of journalctl into a pastebin or code tags. Lennart made it easy to drill into the journal, and the wiki documents how to do it.

This I think I understand - If by drill into you are referring to filtering?

Yes.


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#5 2017-04-04 22:05:37

Awebb
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Registered: 2010-05-06
Posts: 4,853

Re: Code tags vs pastebin

Quiz:

1. Code tags or pastebin?

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orem ipsum dolor sit amet, sapien consectetuer at suscipit mollis donec volutpat. Ipsum nulla vel libero aliquet, sodales at et ligula dis mi sit, et purus iaculis rutrum adipiscing nisl est. Sed ligula id sollicitudin. Eget non ut suspendisse egestas, adipiscing neque. Ante eros integer, morbi dignissim ut venenatis esse mattis. Urna sollicitudin amet pede.

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Sed sed malesuada lorem vestibulum aliquam, urna odio, lobortis elementum vitae sagittis imperdiet. Tincidunt maecenas in dictumst scelerisque vitae, pulvinar ante, illo eget nisl, nec pulvinar, in enim nunc lacus. Mus pulvinar mi necessitatibus eros elit, condimentum mattis sit. Interdum mauris congue magna egestas nibh wisi. Rutrum risus accumsan vitae orci, lorem pellentesque ultrices auctor eu, tellus venenatis penatibus. Fringilla morbi scelerisque in nulla fusce, placerat molestie scelerisque massa aliquam. Magnis commodo id elit lectus donec pede, morbi nunc vitae, vestibulum magna quis lectus sagittis, diam non curabitur sodales morbi, integer sagittis. Placerat mauris leo wisi a, enim et varius id, nullam mauris enim molestie, suspendisse aliquam aliquam, augue vestibulum ligula. In vel non. Porttitor class erat ut libero, suspendisse amet libero ante, etiam pellentesque at nibh.

Rutrum sodales a vel odio semper, vehicula in integer cras odio, eleifend tortor vel curabitur, arcu libero congue leo, amet donec et mi. Interdum nisl morbi varius wisi, rhoncus quam morbi pulvinar mollis neque, a nisl justo dolor nec et. Vehicula orci, taciti per vestibulum rhoncus non, sed a aenean suspendisse luctus, pede feugiat eget ipsum cras, in amet elit. Scelerisque egestas imperdiet, mauris nulla vestibulum vivamus arcu magna ut, nec ipsum vivamus ipsum, suspendisse hymenaeos congue ligula pulvinar, excepteur tempus viverra tellus lectus dolor. Arcu est nunc. Vestibulum nibh a. Sapien pretium morbi magna magna mauris metus, est sed quis donec senectus eu eget, metus commodo bibendum suscipit quam quis ridiculus, gravida eu, consequat facilisis egestas sed scelerisque. Risus nullam sagittis, in nunc lectus nullam ipsum, non mi ullamcorper urna vestibulum ullamcorper, eget quis sit. Urna duis massa curabitur cras, id cum sociis ut magna non ultricies. Ante porttitor nec quis purus. Doloremque tempus nulla ac arcu suspendisse eleifend.

2. Code tags or pastebin?

$ systemctl
UNIT                                                                               LOAD   ACTIVE SUB       DESCRIPTION
proc-sys-fs-binfmt_misc.automount                                                  loaded active running   Arbitrary Executable File Formats File System Automount Point
sys-devices-pci0000:00-0000:00:1b.0-sound-card0.device                             loaded active plugged   NM10/ICH7 Family High Definition Audio Controller
sys-devices-pci0000:00-0000:00:1c.1-0000:02:00.0-net-wls33.device                  loaded active plugged   AR9285 Wireless Network Adapter (PCI-Express) (AW-NE785 / AW-NE785H 802.11bgn Wireless Full or Half-size Mini PCIe Card)
sys-devices-pci0000:00-0000:00:1c.3-0000:03:00.1-sound-card1.device                loaded active plugged   High Definition Audio Controller
sys-devices-pci0000:00-0000:00:1e.0-0000:04:0b.0-net-enp4s11.device                loaded active plugged   RTL-8110SC/8169SC Gigabit Ethernet
sys-devices-pci0000:00-0000:00:1f.2-ata1-host0-target0:0:0-0:0:0:0-block-sda-sda1.device loaded active plugged   SAMSUNG_HD204UI 1

sys-devices-pci0000:00-0000:00:1f.2-ata1-host0-target0:0:0-0:0:0:0-block-sda-sda2.device loaded active plugged   LVM PV sTF11f-9yeL-baTm-Lyzo-SbQy-QZUG-f6y3aB on /dev/sda2 2
sys-devices-pci0000:00-0000:00:1f.2-ata1-host0-target0:0:0-0:0:0:0-block-sda.device loaded active plugged   SAMSUNG_HD204UI

sys-devices-pci0000:00-0000:00:1f.2-ata2-host1-target1:0:0-1:0:0:0-block-sdb-sdb1.device loaded active plugged   LVM PV Utvx4S-7yUY-jUlL-C1rm-o1Z8-q1MA-I5g6AI on /dev/sdb1 1
sys-devices-pci0000:00-0000:00:1f.2-ata2-host1-target1:0:0-1:0:0:0-block-sdb.device loaded active plugged   SAMSUNG_HD204UI

sys-devices-platform-serial8250-tty-ttyS1.device                                   loaded active plugged   /sys/devices/platform/serial8250/tty/ttyS1
sys-devices-platform-serial8250-tty-ttyS2.device                                   loaded active plugged   /sys/devices/platform/serial8250/tty/ttyS2
sys-devices-platform-serial8250-tty-ttyS3.device                                   loaded active plugged   /sys/devices/platform/serial8250/tty/ttyS3
sys-devices-pnp0-00:02-tty-ttyS0.device                                            loaded active plugged   /sys/devices/pnp0/00:02/tty/ttyS0
sys-devices-virtual-block-dm\x2d0.device                                           loaded active plugged   /sys/devices/virtual/block/dm-0
sys-devices-virtual-misc-rfkill.device                                             loaded active plugged   /sys/devices/virtual/misc/rfkill
sys-module-configfs.device                                                         loaded active plugged   /sys/module/configfs
sys-subsystem-net-devices-enp4s11.device                                           loaded active plugged   RTL-8110SC/8169SC Gigabit Ethernet
sys-subsystem-net-devices-wls33.device                                             loaded active plugged   AR9285 Wireless Network Adapter (PCI-Express) (AW-NE785 / AW-NE785H 802.11bgn Wireless Full or Half-size Mini PCIe Card)
-.mount                                                                            loaded active mounted   Root Mount
dev-hugepages.mount                                                                loaded active mounted   Huge Pages File System
dev-mqueue.mount                                                                   loaded active mounted   POSIX Message Queue File System
proc-fs-nfsd.mount                                                                 loaded active mounted   NFSD configuration filesystem
proc-sys-fs-binfmt_misc.mount                                                      loaded active mounted   Arbitrary Executable File Formats File System
run-user-1000.mount                                                                loaded active mounted   /run/user/1000
srv-nfs4-audio.mount                                                               loaded active mounted   /srv/nfs4/audio
srv-nfs4-bilder.mount                                                              loaded active mounted   /srv/nfs4/bilder
srv-nfs4-ebooks.mount                                                              loaded active mounted   /srv/nfs4/ebooks
srv-nfs4-incomming.mount                                                           loaded active mounted   /srv/nfs4/incomming
srv-nfs4-scriptorium.mount                                                         loaded active mounted   /srv/nfs4/scriptorium
srv-nfs4-video.mount                                                               loaded active mounted   /srv/nfs4/video
storage.mount                                                                      loaded active mounted   /storage
sys-kernel-config.mount                                                            loaded active mounted   Configuration File Systemsys-kernel-debug.mount                                                             loaded active mounted   Debug File System
tmp.mount                                                                          loaded active mounted   Temporary Directory
var-lib-nfs-rpc_pipefs.mount                                                       loaded active mounted   RPC Pipe File System
systemd-ask-password-console.path                                                  loaded active waiting   Dispatch Password Requests to Console Directory Watch
systemd-ask-password-wall.path                                                     loaded active waiting   Forward Password Requests to Wall Directory Watch
init.scope                                                                         loaded active running   System and Service Manager
session-c2.scope                                                                   loaded active running   Session c2 of user rage2people
session-c7.scope                                                                   loaded active running   Session c7 of user rage2people
alsa-restore.service                                                               loaded active exited    Save/Restore Sound Card State
avahi-daemon.service                                                               loaded active running   Avahi mDNS/DNS-SD Stack
dbus.service                                                                       loaded active running   D-Bus System Message Bus deluged-r2p.service                                                                loaded active running   Deluge Daemon
dhcpcd@enp4s11.service                                                             loaded active running   dhcpcd on enp4s11
freshclamd.service                                                                 loaded active running   clamav updater
getty@tty1.service                                                                 loaded active running   Getty on tty1
gssproxy.service                                                                   loaded active running   GSSAPI Proxy Daemon
kmod-static-nodes.service                                                          loaded active exited    Create list of required static device nodes for the current kernel
lvm2-lvmetad.service                                                               loaded active running   LVM2 metadata daemon
lvm2-pvscan@8:17.service                                                           loaded active exited    LVM2 PV scan on device 8:17
lvm2-pvscan@8:2.service                                                            loaded active exited    LVM2 PV scan on device 8:2
mariadb.service                                                                    loaded active running   MariaDB database server
nfs-idmapd.service                                                                 loaded active running   NFSv4 ID-name mapping service
nfs-mountd.service                                                                 loaded active running   NFS Mount Daemon
nfs-server.service                                                                 loaded active exited    NFS server and services
nginx.service                                                                      loaded active running   A high performance web server and a reverse proxy server
pacserve.service                                                                   loaded active running   Pacserve
polkit.service                                                                     loaded active running   Authorization Manager
rpc-statd.service                                                                  loaded active running   NFS status monitor for NFSv2/3 locking.
rpcbind.service                                                                    loaded active running   RPC Bind
rsyncd.service                                                                     loaded active running   A file transfer program to keep remote files in sync
rtkit-daemon.service                                                               loaded active running   RealtimeKit Scheduling Policy Service
sshd.service                                                                       loaded active running   OpenSSH Daemon
syncthing-inotify@rage2people.service                                              loaded active running   Syncthing Inotify File Watcher for rage2people
syncthing@rage2people.service                                                      loaded active running   Syncthing - Open Source Continuous File Synchronization for rage2people
systemd-binfmt.service                                                             loaded active exited    Set Up Additional Binary Formats
systemd-fsck@dev-disk-by\x2duuid-c641410f\x2de4b5\x2d470c\x2dbe0a\x2deff897503c69.service loaded active exited    File System Check on /dev/disk/by-uuid/c641410f-e4b5-470c-be0a-eff897503c69
systemd-journal-flush.service                                                      loaded active exited    Flush Journal to Persistent Storage
systemd-journald.service                                                           loaded active running   Journal Service
systemd-logind.service                                                             loaded active running   Login Service
systemd-modules-load.service                                                       loaded active exited    Load Kernel Modules
systemd-random-seed.service                                                        loaded active exited    Load/Save Random Seed
systemd-remount-fs.service                                                         loaded active exited    Remount Root and Kernel File Systems
systemd-sysctl.service                                                             loaded active exited    Apply Kernel Variables
systemd-tmpfiles-setup-dev.service                                                 loaded active exited    Create Static Device Nodes in /dev
systemd-tmpfiles-setup.service                                                     loaded active exited    Create Volatile Files and Directories
systemd-udev-trigger.service                                                       loaded active exited    udev Coldplug all Devicessystemd-udevd.service                                                              loaded active running   udev Kernel Device Manager
systemd-update-utmp.service                                                        loaded active exited    Update UTMP about System Boot/Shutdown
systemd-user-sessions.service                                                      loaded active exited    Permit User Sessions
upower.service                                                                     loaded active running   Daemon for power management
user@1000.service                                                                  loaded active running   User Manager for UID 1000-.slice                                                                            loaded active active    Root Slice
system-dhcpcd.slice                                                                loaded active active    system-dhcpcd.slice
system-getty.slice                                                                 loaded active active    system-getty.slice
system-lvm2\x2dpvscan.slice                                                        loaded active active    system-lvm2\x2dpvscan.slice
system-rsnapshot.slice                                                             loaded active active    system-rsnapshot.slice
system-syncthing.slice                                                             loaded active active    system-syncthing.slice
system-syncthing\x2dinotify.slice                                                  loaded active active    system-syncthing\x2dinotify.slice
system-systemd\x2dfsck.slice                                                       loaded active active    system-systemd\x2dfsck.slice
system.slice                                                                       loaded active active    System Slice
user-1000.slice                                                                    loaded active active    User Slice of rage2peopleuser.slice                                                                         loaded active active    User and Session Slice
avahi-daemon.socket                                                                loaded active running   Avahi mDNS/DNS-SD Stack Activation Socket
dbus.socket                                                                        loaded active running   D-Bus System Message Bus Socket
dm-event.socket                                                                    loaded active listening Device-mapper event daemon FIFOs
lvm2-lvmetad.socket                                                                loaded active running   LVM2 metadata daemon socket
rpcbind.socket                                                                     loaded active running   RPCbind Server Activation Socket
systemd-coredump.socket                                                            loaded active listening Process Core Dump Socket systemd-initctl.socket                                                             loaded active listening /dev/initctl Compatibility Named Pipe
systemd-journald-dev-log.socket                                                    loaded active running   Journal Socket (/dev/log)systemd-journald.socket                                                            loaded active running   Journal Socket
systemd-rfkill.socket                                                              loaded active listening Load/Save RF Kill Switch Status /dev/rfkill Watch
systemd-udevd-control.socket                                                       loaded active running   udev Control Socket
systemd-udevd-kernel.socket                                                        loaded active running   udev Kernel Socket
basic.target                                                                       loaded active active    Basic System
cryptsetup.target                                                                  loaded active active    Encrypted Volumes
getty.target                                                                       loaded active active    Login Prompts
graphical.target                                                                   loaded active active    Graphical Interface
local-fs-pre.target                                                                loaded active active    Local File Systems (Pre) local-fs.target                                                                    loaded active active    Local File Systems
multi-user.target                                                                  loaded active active    Multi-User System
network.target                                                                     loaded active active    Network
nss-lookup.target                                                                  loaded active active    Host and Network Name Lookups
paths.target                                                                       loaded active active    Paths
remote-fs.target                                                                   loaded active active    Remote File Systems
rpcbind.target                                                                     loaded active active    RPC Port Mapper
slices.target                                                                      loaded active active    Slices
sockets.target                                                                     loaded active active    Sockets
sound.target                                                                       loaded active active    Sound Card
swap.target                                                                        loaded active active    Swap
sysinit.target                                                                     loaded active active    System Initialization
timers.target                                                                      loaded active active    Timers
logrotate.timer                                                                    loaded active waiting   Daily rotation of log files
man-db.timer                                                                       loaded active waiting   Daily man-db cache updatersnapshot-daily.timer                                                              loaded active waiting   rsnapshot daily backup
rsnapshot-monthly.timer                                                            loaded active waiting   rsnapshot monthly backup rsnapshot-weekly.timer                                                             loaded active waiting   rsnapshot weekly backup
shadow.timer                                                                       loaded active waiting   Daily verification of password and group files
systemd-tmpfiles-clean.timer                                                       loaded active waiting   Daily Cleanup of Temporary Directories
updatedb.timer                                                                     loaded active waiting   Daily locate database update

LOAD   = Reflects whether the unit definition was properly loaded.
ACTIVE = The high-level unit activation state, i.e. generalization of SUB.
SUB    = The low-level unit activation state, values depend on unit type.

133 loaded units listed. Pass --all to see loaded but inactive units, too.
To show all installed unit files use 'systemctl list-unit-files'.

3. Code tags or paste bin?

## packages
        alias aur='/usr/bin/cower --color=always -s'

        export ASPROOT="$HOME/build/asp"
        export AUR="https://aur.archlinux.org"


        aurp() {
                 aur $1 | less -r
                }

#       aurget() {
#               /usr/bin/cower -dd $1
#               [[ -e $HOME/build/src/$1 ]] && cd $HOME/build/src/$1
#               [[ -e PKGBUILD ]] && $EDITOR PKGBUILD
#       }

        aurgitget() {
                local AUR4GIT_STORAGE="$HOME/build/aur4git"
                local AUR4GIT_TEMP="/tmp/aur4git"

                if [[ ! -e $AUR4GIT_STORAGE ]]; then
                        mkdir $AUR4GIT_STORAGE
                fi

                if [[ ! -e $AUR4GIT_TEMP ]]; then
                        mkdir $AUR4GIT_TEMP
                fi

                cd $AUR4GIT_STORAGE
                if [[ -e $1 ]]; then
                        if [[ $1/.git ]]; then
                                cd $AUR4GIT_STORAGE/$1
                                if [[ $(git pull) ]]; then
                                        cd $AUR4GIT_STORAGE
                                else
                                        echo "$AUR4GIT_STORAGE/$1 exists, but pull failed"
                                        return 1
                                fi
                        else
                                echo "$AUR4GIT_STORAGE/$1 exists, but .git is missing"
                                return 1
                        fi
                else
                        git clone $AUR/$1.git
                fi
                rsync -az $AUR4GIT_STORAGE/$1 $AUR4GIT_TEMP
                cd $AUR4GIT_TEMP/$1
                if [[ ! $AUR4GIT_NOEDIT == "NOEDIT" ]]; then
                        if [[ -e PKGBUILD ]]; then
                                $EDITOR PKGBUILD
                                pwd
                        else
                                echo "No PKGBUILD in $(pwd)!"
                                return 1
                        fi
                fi
        }

        alias aurget='aurgitget'

        aurupdate() {
                local AUR4GIT_NOEDIT="NOEDIT"
                for i in $(cower -qu); do
                        aurgitget $i
                done
                cd $AUR4GIT_TEMP
        }

        Pacman () {
                sudo etckeeper pre-install
                sudo pacman  "$@"
                sudo etckeeper post-install
        }

        Makepkg() {
                sudo etckeeper pre-install
                makepkg "$@"
                sudo etckeeper post-install
        }

        alias etclog='sudo etckeeper vcs log'

        alias pacsummary="comm -23 <(pacman -Qqen | sort) <(pacman -Qgq base base-devel | sort)"

        paclic() {
                if [[ -z $2 ]];
                then
                        depth="1"
                else
                        depth=$2
                fi
                if [[ -e /usr/bin/expac ]];
                then
                        pactree -sld $depth $1 | xargs expac -S '%n: %L'
                else
                        for i in `pactree -sld $depth $1`; do
                                echo $i `pacman -Si $i | grep Licens`
                        done
                fi
        }

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#6 2017-04-04 22:07:45

olegabrielz
Member
From: Norway
Registered: 2015-12-23
Posts: 210

Re: Code tags vs pastebin

I see your point. There is a specific size limit for using pictures in the forums, but people still need to be reminded of it by you moderators (or others). I like to read the code of conduct. But I know by reading posts that many don't. I agree to the strict rules. This keeps the forums pretty clean and therefore usefull for those who seeks help and answers.

I will try to find a way to adapt your common sense argument in the matter of code tags vs pastebin.

Thanks for your time and answers.

Edit:
@Awebb: I'll try it. Just give me a moment.

Last edited by olegabrielz (2017-04-04 22:09:34)


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#7 2017-04-04 22:15:04

olegabrielz
Member
From: Norway
Registered: 2015-12-23
Posts: 210

Re: Code tags vs pastebin

1. Spam
2. Pastebin
3. Code tags


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#8 2017-04-04 22:22:06

Trilby
Forum Moderator
From: Massachusetts, USA
Registered: 2011-11-29
Posts: 16,092
Website

Re: Code tags vs pastebin

olegabrielz wrote:

There is a specific size limit for using pictures in the forums...

True, but pictures on either side of the boundary are easy to resize to fit that arbitrary boundary.

We wouldn't want people "resizing" a log that was just over some arbitrary limit so it could be in code tags.

I think it's hard to go wrong on this - certainly not impossible, but it'd pretty much need to be intentional.  I think the "any reasonable person" criteria is a good metric here.  If your log/output/whatever is so long that it's likely that any reasonable forum-goer would object to it, then link to it somewhere else.  If your log/output/whatever is so short that any reasonable forum-goer would think it silly to have to follow a link to it, then put it in code tags.  If your log/output/whatever is neither obviously to long nor obviously short enough, then take your pick.

That is a huge grey area.  And that is why it'd be hard to go wrong.  So if a moderator ever does object to your choice, you must have really screwed it up.  That said, a suggestion or gentle direction may not be the same as an objection.

I'm not sure what AWebb's intent with those three examples we're, but to play along, I'd say all three are (in terms of their length) probably in the middle of the grey area: so either code tags or links would be fine for those.

I also think relevance can inform the decision too.  Is the content of the code/log directly relevant and absolutely necessary for the queston/problem at hand, then err on the side of code tags.  If the code/log is only potentially relevant and provided as supplemental material then err on the side of links.

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#9 2017-04-04 22:28:18

olegabrielz
Member
From: Norway
Registered: 2015-12-23
Posts: 210

Re: Code tags vs pastebin

Trilby wrote:

I think it's hard to go wrong on this - certainly not impossible, but it'd pretty much need to be intentional.  I think the "any reasonable person" criteria is a good metric here.  If your log/output/whatever is so long that it's likely that any reasonable forum-goer would object to it, then link to it somewhere else.  If your log/output/whatever is so short that any reasonable forum-goer would think it silly to have to follow a link to it, then put it in code tags.  If your log/output/whatever is neither obviously to long nor obviously short enough, then take your pick.

Then I would like to change my answer from last post to:
1. Pastebin
2. code tag
3. code tag

Edit:
Why:
1. has extremely long lines.
2. has also some long lines, but are easy to follow.
3. is a no brainer

Edit2:
This is why I'm struggling to wrap my head around this. When thinking about it:
1. should be considered a quote, making the line break for easier reading. But posting it or linking it am pretty unsure of. If quoting it it becomes a pretty long text. A link to a online document with line breaks would be prefered from my point of view.
2. is also difficult to decide on where to put. If you need to read the whole lines through the whole text it's a struggle.
3. This one is easy to scroll through and see the whole content.

Edit3:

Trilby wrote:

I also think relevance can inform the decision too.  Is the content of the code/log directly relevant and absolutely necessary for the queston/problem at hand, then err on the side of code tags.  If the code/log is only potentially relevant and provided as supplemental material then err on the side of links.

Good point.

So if I now understand this correctly: To use common sense when it comes to relevance, combined with read- and scroll-friendliness, is a reasonable measure when choosing post vs link.

Last edited by olegabrielz (2017-04-05 00:26:36)


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#10 2017-04-05 01:27:16

ewaller
Administrator
From: Pasadena, CA
Registered: 2009-07-13
Posts: 14,373

Re: Code tags vs pastebin

... And when we, the (human) moderators screw up, point us back to this thread wink


Nothing is too wonderful to be true, if it be consistent with the laws of nature -- Michael Faraday
You assume people are rational and influenced by evidence.  You must not work with the public much. -- Trilby
----
How to Ask Questions the Smart Way

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#11 2017-04-05 09:30:09

olegabrielz
Member
From: Norway
Registered: 2015-12-23
Posts: 210

Re: Code tags vs pastebin

When you guys do your work I usually don't get in the way. But sometimes I do comment on posts asking people to change large images with either links or thumbnails/links, and to use code tags for command ouputs or logs. I'm not very helpful in complicated and tecnical stuff, but I can at least help out a bit when it comes to keeping the forums nice and tidy. I did start this thread to try to understand something that I have struggled to see a reasonable logic in. I cannot say I now know where to draw the line between the use of code tags vs pastebin. But I know a bit more now on how to choose between the usage of those two. If someone paste a lot of code straight into their post I can now politely ask them to edit and change their post with a bit more confidence and understanding of what to suggest.


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#12 2017-04-05 09:45:04

Awebb
Member
Registered: 2010-05-06
Posts: 4,853

Re: Code tags vs pastebin

The rule is "make sure it doesn't suck". It's not just about the length of a code block, but about relevance. As you can see, code tags have some sort of limits to what can be considered good to read. I tried reading all of my examples in a cell phone browser and only number three was even tolerable. My rule of thumb: Raw output that I don't understand goes in a pastebin, relevant output, no matter the length, goes into code tags. Relevant output can usually be commented and broken down into separate code blocks. If your post has, say, a script in it, that you don't want to upload to a source hoster, but is too important for the thread to be put on janky external hosts, then code tags are favorable, more or less no matter how long the piece is. There is a reason code blocks are roughly only 20 lines long: They need to be easy to ignore (we discuss, we don't parse), but convenient enough to read in case the information is really needed.

In other words: It's not how long your dump is, it's how much work you have already put into it. I'll gladly stare you in the eyes, but you'll have to do your own pushing.

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#13 2017-04-05 10:35:33

Docbroke
Member
From: India
Registered: 2015-06-13
Posts: 885

Re: Code tags vs pastebin

It is simply a question of what will be most easy to read. If it is a small code it can be easily read with code tags, but if it is huge scrolling in box is quite uncomfortable.
What has not been told till now is the view of someone using text-browsers (read w3m/lynx). For them code block is just like a other text, so if it is more than few screen long, it becomes pain to scroll and read next posts. Therefor I suggest to use pastebin if output is more than 1 or 2 screen size.
Our forums are actually very comfortable to read with text-browser, even more than using GUI, excluding occasional long code tags.


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#14 2017-04-05 11:09:24

olegabrielz
Member
From: Norway
Registered: 2015-12-23
Posts: 210

Re: Code tags vs pastebin

@Awebb: So basically relevance is the keyword. An example of two opposites:

1. If a person posts the full output of journalctl in code tags, when someone helping out has asked him to do so, is the correct way of doing it.

2. If a person posts the full output of different logs with code tags, not knowing which one is relevant (if any), is the wrong way of doing it. Pastebin is more suitable.

Docbroke wrote:

What has not been told till now is the view of someone using text-browsers (read w3m/lynx). For them code block is just like a other text, so if it is more than few screen long, it becomes pain to scroll and read next posts.

This I did not know. I have used both lynx and links a little but have never thought of it (probably because I was using them mainly on the wiki, not he forums). But this is also something to take into consideration.

I don't know if I just overcomplicate this subject. But it helps me to understand what is more suitable in different scenarios.


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#15 2017-04-05 11:24:06

Lone_Wolf
Member
From: Netherlands, Europe
Registered: 2005-10-04
Posts: 5,049

Re: Code tags vs pastebin

I often copy code tagged content into a temporary text file so i can get a better overview and check them easier.

If you see something and feel that same urge, that content is better put in a pastebin.


Booting with apg Openrc, NOT systemd.
Automounting : not needed, i prefer pmount
Aur helpers : makepkg + my own local repo === rarely need them

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#16 2017-04-05 17:33:25

olegabrielz
Member
From: Norway
Registered: 2015-12-23
Posts: 210

Re: Code tags vs pastebin

I also do the same from time to time. Never thought about it like that. A good tip. Thanks.

Last edited by olegabrielz (2017-04-05 17:33:52)


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#17 2017-04-15 14:34:32

fsckd
Forum Moderator
Registered: 2009-06-15
Posts: 3,740

Re: Code tags vs pastebin

The downside of pastebins are expired pastes. As long as the relevant stuff is in thread, I wouldn't care. Also, text in pastes do not show up when searching the forums.


aur S & M :: forum rules :: Community Ethos
Resources for Women, POC, LGBT*, and allies

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#18 2017-04-15 15:55:14

R00KIE
Forum Moderator
From: Between a computer and a chair
Registered: 2008-09-14
Posts: 3,934

Re: Code tags vs pastebin

My personal preference is for seeing logs in code tags, I find it less distracting than having to go back and forth between pages/tabs to read the log and match with references in the text.

As fsckd pointed out, keeping log output in the forum with code tags may be more useful and will not put an expiry date on the thread. On the other hand if planning to dump all your journal history in a thread do use a pastebin service.


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Tm90aGluZyB0byBzZWUgaGVyZSwgbW92ZSBhbG9uZy4K

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#19 2017-04-15 16:44:05

olegabrielz
Member
From: Norway
Registered: 2015-12-23
Posts: 210

Re: Code tags vs pastebin

But isn't expiry dates on pastebin clients, as long as you don't specify a date, more long living than most posts relevance on these forums? But I see the point. The 'searching the forums' argument is probably the best I've heard. So if someone posts an issue and share some logs on pastebin, the guy who choose to support him should also repeat the lines of importance in code tags when answering. That would be a good practice, making the relevant lines searchable in the forums. The 'go back and forth between pages/tabs' argument is also important.

So now, the only arguments I've heard about using pastebin over code tags:

  • If the code are of little or no relevance/importance for the thread.

  • If the code extends the maximum size of a post.

  • Very long code in code tags can be tiresome for those using text based browsers.

I don't know the importance of the last point. It could be marginal and not of importance at all, as most users do use GUI browsers.

Edit: Added some ' in the text
Edit2: Did a strike through. As noticed by Trilby in #20, my choice of words do not reflect what I actually intended.

Last edited by olegabrielz (2017-04-15 20:24:50)


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#20 2017-04-15 19:08:36

Trilby
Forum Moderator
From: Massachusetts, USA
Registered: 2011-11-29
Posts: 16,092
Website

Re: Code tags vs pastebin

olegabrielz wrote:

I don't know the importance of the last point. It could be marginal and not of importance at all

I doubt it was your intent - but I find this thought process irritating.  If you stopped at "marginal" it'd be fine.  I think text-mode browser users should be prepared for some pages to not appear in an ideal layout, and they likely can accept that they may be a minority whose preferences will not carry great weight in the grand scheme of things.  But this is far different than saying they are of no importance at all.

To put it in context, I suspect the portion of archlinux forum users who frequently use text browsers is *at least* as large as the portion of computer users who frequently use linux.  Should software developers and service providers conclude that linux is of no importance at all?  (Some of them do, and most people here find it irritating to say the least).

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#21 2017-04-15 20:12:57

olegabrielz
Member
From: Norway
Registered: 2015-12-23
Posts: 210

Re: Code tags vs pastebin

@Trilby: Thanks for pointing it out. I think you are starting to know me. That was not intended at all. I have absolutely no interest/intention of insulting any part of this community, marginal or not.

Last edited by olegabrielz (2017-04-15 21:33:25)


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#22 2017-04-15 22:08:08

R00KIE
Forum Moderator
From: Between a computer and a chair
Registered: 2008-09-14
Posts: 3,934

Re: Code tags vs pastebin

olegabrielz wrote:

But isn't expiry dates on pastebin clients, as long as you don't specify a date, more long living than most posts relevance on these forums?

Relevance can be relative, who's to say that an old thread will not provide hints that will help solve a problem? Or at the very least provide logs to compare with and a list of things to check.

If I had a difficult problem to solve, I'd rather have everything on the thread (as much as possible). Not many things are more frustrating when trying to solve a problem than finding that some (maybe important) piece of information is on the other end of a dead link.

I'm not sure making people repeat the important lines of logs in their replies is going to be "enforceable", and importance is dependent on which lead you are following. Here we usually ask for full logs for a reason, it's not only the error or warning lines that matter but also the context.


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#23 2017-04-16 01:04:44

olegabrielz
Member
From: Norway
Registered: 2015-12-23
Posts: 210

Re: Code tags vs pastebin

R00KIE wrote:
olegabrielz wrote:

But isn't expiry dates on pastebin clients, as long as you don't specify a date, more long living than most posts relevance on these forums?

Relevance can be relative, who's to say that an old thread will not provide hints that will help solve a problem? Or at the very least provide logs to compare with and a list of things to check.

True, can't argue with that.

R00KIE wrote:

I'm not sure making people repeat the important lines of logs in their replies is going to be "enforceable", and importance is dependent on which lead you are following. Here we usually ask for full logs for a reason, it's not only the error or warning lines that matter but also the context.

The reason for mentioning that is that I've noticed that when people do answer to a post when a log or output has relevance, they often bring the lines of importance into code tags in their reply. So even if the output or log is on pastebin, the relevant part of it is often being brought back into code tags, making it at least searchable in the forums and readable for the future.

When reading your arguments I came to this conclusion: The more we try to keep inside the forum walls (except unwanted stuff or irrelevant code) the better it is.

I do not discuss these subjects in hope of changing anything other than my own understanding of how details in these forums works. I really appreciate you guys giving me honest answers. And I really hope you guys won't loose your patience with me, even if I can seem a bit lost from time to time.

Edit: A typo (or five)

Last edited by olegabrielz (2017-04-16 01:10:35)


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