Debian

ihavenoname · 2006-06-29 04:03:40

Hey, a few days ago, I installed Debian Etch and I must say I was some what impressed. Like Arch, it installs only a base system and leaves the rest for the user. One diffrence is that with debian there are cds that you can install from by simply putting the cd in and typing apt-cdrom add. With arch you would need to manually make the cd and then manually add the sources, which could be a problem if you do not have internet access. (Not bashing Arch, thats just a feature I saw as useful). Also Debian has an enourmous package base (Debian truly is a mamouth Distro).

The two main downsides to Debian are that configuration (at least compared to Arch) can be confusing. Also the development tools aren't included by default, by that I mean if you are trying to compile a wifi driver you might be in trouble as the kernel headers aren't installed by defaul and the i686 headers aren't even on the first or second cd. (I still don't understand how the Arch kernel is about 17mb with the headers while the other distros kernels are about the same size or slightly bigger w/o the headers, how many patches do they put in? (I belive the headers to be a very important thing to the Linux distribution, while I am sure they have their reasons for not including them.

Also Arch seems to be faster then Debian, but it could just be me (as I have no proof of this).

Anyways, I was just wondering some of the reasons why Arch users who had used Debian previously left. As from what I have seen it is a very good distro. Were there problems with Debian or did you just like Arch better? Also I just wanted to get your thoughts on Debian in general (as well as Debian derivatives, Ubuntu included)

(NOTE: This was not at all a complete review, much of what I said was my opinion, I was only introducing a topic for discussion, not stating facts I just want your opinions (esp. if you have used Debian) thank you.)

McQueen · 2006-06-29 04:37:03

ihavenoname wrote:

Anyways, I was just wondering some of the reasons why Arch users who had used Debian previously left.

There's nothing _wrong_ with Debian IMO, and the wiki entry Why Debian? illustrates some very good points as to why it is the perfect choice for many people. Personally, I just prefer a release system that is less tiered, and have found that the ongoing development of Arch is often more officially accessible to the common user (such as the AUR project).

Dusty · 2006-06-29 05:20:08

ihavenoname wrote:

Anyways, I was just wondering some of the reasons why Arch users who had used Debian previously left.

Oh... so many reasons. its been something like two and a half years though, so they may have improved... even Debian can make improvements in that amount of time...

First, I was on dialup then, and apt-get update took 30 minutes, while pacman -Syu took about two and a half.

Second, Debian was so glacial in their release cycle. Arch bleeding edge has a lot to say for it, and I personally accept the occasional complete messes that our devs sometimes make to ensure timely distribution of packages.

Third, it was so hard to get certain 'non-free' packages for Debian.

Fourth, by extension, if there wasn't a Debian package, I could never figure out how to build one. ABS was documented and out there and presented as something any user could use, not hidden like only gurus should create packages. I still can't find a build debian/ubuntu packages HOWTO.

Fifth, I hate mailing lists. I don't think debian has a phpbb, and arch does.

Sixth, Debian configuration seems basically like a random thing. Arch hangs its guts out in one simple file.

Oh and luck number seven was Sarah31. And all the other great community members of eras gone by. The devs used to stop in here more often you know...

And all this was before Arch had the great wiki documentation we have now, or the AUR that new users think is so attractive about it!

Dusty

ihavenoname · 2006-06-29 06:08:29

Dusty wrote:

ihavenoname wrote:
Anyways, I was just wondering some of the reasons why Arch users who had used Debian previously left.
Oh... so many reasons. its been something like two and a half years though, so they may have improved... even Debian can make improvements in that amount of time...
First, I was on dialup then, and apt-get update took 30 minutes, while pacman -Syu took about two and a half.
Second, Debian was so glacial in their release cycle. Arch bleeding edge has a lot to say for it, and I personally accept the occasional complete messes that our devs sometimes make to ensure timely distribution of packages.
Third, it was so hard to get certain 'non-free' packages for Debian.
Fourth, by extension, if there wasn't a Debian package, I could never figure out how to build one. ABS was documented and out there and presented as something any user could use, not hidden like only gurus should create packages. I still can't find a build debian/ubuntu packages HOWTO.
Fifth, I hate mailing lists. I don't think debian has a phpbb, and arch does.
Sixth, Debian configuration seems basically like a random thing. Arch hangs its guts out in one simple file.
Oh and luck number seven was Sarah31. And all the other great community members of eras gone by. The devs used to stop in here more often you know...
And all this was before Arch had the great wiki documentation we have now, or the AUR that new users think is so attractive about it!
Dusty

You make several good points Dusty, although I suspect that (as you mentioned) there have been improvments. ( Ubuntu comes with documention on how to build debs, but I must admit it does not seem very good and is no where near the Arch Documention in terms of clarity.)

mingfal · 2006-06-29 06:24:01

It was debian that I used before arch.
The reason why I left debian is that the packages in debian repos is very old even in the unstable repo(I heard it was much better) and arch is faster than debian.

tomk · 2006-06-29 08:30:10

I'm feeling lazy at the mo, so if your read through this thread, you'll find some posts about Debian, including mine.

Purch · 2006-06-29 08:59:57

Don't forget the friendly #archlinux@freenode. Debian irc channel is for stable only! And people there laught at you if you make a beginner or too easy questions to their knowledge.

profoX · 2006-06-29 13:10:11

The debian community can scare away noobs. They would rather say things to make themself look "elite" than help you.

Debian was one of my first real operating systems though. It is my preferred choice for servers, and it's very mature and stable. Although for a "desktop debian" I would advise Ubuntu.. or Archlinux (of course)

barebones · 2006-06-29 14:48:22

The reason that I swiched over from Ubuntu, was, suprisingly, the community. Some mods over at the Ubuntu forums closed a thread I was posting on because it was "the same old s***", apparantly. They had taken no part in the thread (which was about 2 and a half pages long when it was locked) and I can't imagine how it was bothering anyone. It made me wonder if some of those mods had picked up a god complex from dealing with so many newcomers.

</venting>

I never really had a problem with apt-get, except when doing a dist-upgrade. That routinely broke my system. And I have to agree with dusty, I was severly ticked off about lack of documentation on creating a package. Makepkg and the AUR were probabily the reason that I chose arch over other distros.

McQueen · 2006-06-29 15:15:06

barebones wrote:

I was severly ticked off about lack of documentation on creating a package.

LOL, there's not a lack of documentation.
More like a like of time to get though the "novel".

Official .debs have a lot of conventions, standards, and guidelines that are expected to be followed, so I'm not going to knock it for being somewhat of a beast to feel comfortable negotiating. It is what it is intended to be, and as such does require some more rigorous development steps. Actually, their packages have IMO better standards that many other alternatives.

Ryujin · 2006-06-29 15:37:49

The big thing I like about arch opposed to debian is recursive package removal. it is very easy to remove say an entire gui in arch, where it is nearly inposible (to my knowledge) to do it in debian

McQueen · 2006-06-29 15:45:21

Ryujin wrote:

The big thing I like about arch opposed to debian is recursive package removal. it is very easy to remove say an entire gui in arch, where it is nearly inposible (to my knowledge) to do it in debian

You speaking about apt-get.
But aptitude (the original Debian package tool) can do this no problem.

Ryujin · 2006-06-29 15:52:17

really? I will have to give it a spin, McQueen, you just keep giving me good information today! Thanks!

fk · 2006-06-29 15:55:24

You speaking about apt-get.
But aptitude (the original Debian package tool) can do this no problem.

That is not right!

The packet management from debian is dpkg

And both (apt-get and aptitude) are Frontends for dpkg

profoX · 2006-06-29 16:14:19

fk wrote:

You speaking about apt-get.
But aptitude (the original Debian package tool) can do this no problem.
That is not right!
The packet management from debian is dpkg
And both (apt-get and aptitude) are Frontends for dpkg

not really a front-end.. apt-get grabs .deb's from the net + dependancies and installs them with dpkg, and I think aptitude works the same way, but in a GUI

Ryujin · 2006-06-29 16:15:36

well, aptitude is an old ncurses application for apt-get which is the manager for dpkg, others include synaptic and dselect, I suppose if you wanted to be technical dpkg is the core of the operation, and the others are frontend tools to make dpkg more manageable. I was under the impression that dselect was older, but I am reletively new to Debian.

McQueen · 2006-06-29 16:26:35

fk wrote:

That is not right!
The packet management from debian is dpkg
And both (apt-get and aptitude) are Frontends for dpkg

Good grief. I meant in that pkg tool category.
Obviously the original package _manager_ is dpkg.

McQueen · 2006-06-29 16:32:55

Ryujin wrote:

really? I will have to give it a spin...

You need to use it upfront when installing the pkgs.
Otherwise install wajig and then:

# wajig remove-depend [package(s)]

fk · 2006-06-29 17:56:20

Good grief. I meant in that pkg tool category. Rolling Eyes
Obviously the original package _manager_ is dpkg.

I don't know what you are meant, but I know what you wrote

McQueen · 2006-06-29 20:35:02

No worries...not a big deal. It probably needed clarifying.

Bison · 2006-06-29 21:01:46

I agree with everything Dusty said. I would probably rather be shot in the face with a red rider beebee gun than use Debian again...ever.

I should also mention how painful it is to find packages. YOu want xorg...it can't be called xorg, it has to be like xserver-xorg-moresillynames. If you want java, its like sun-java-sdk or something like that.

whargoul · 2006-06-29 21:20:12

The main thing why I use Arch is KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid, not the band), and of course all the other things Arch have.

Purch · 2006-06-29 21:43:08

Arch is KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid, and KISS is the best band) 8)

cactus · 2006-06-29 22:32:03

gah. Enough senseless and pointless distro trolling. If it makes you happier, or more personally fulfilled, to bag on other distros, then do it somewhere else.

I happen to like a few other distros than *just* Arch. Many are for particular uses and environments.

test1000 · 2006-06-29 22:58:22

i found this thread a great eye-opener though, probably because the only other distro iv'e tried is vectorlinux which was complete sheit and frugalware which i think maybe would be better than arch if it had more users or maybe not, it was a long time since i tried it.

so this wasn't senseless for me! very constructive in fact.

Arch Linux

#1 2006-06-29 04:03:40

Debian

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