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#1 2018-05-29 00:54:18

zizheng
Member
Registered: 2016-12-11
Posts: 18

pacman-optimize and other utilties removed from pacman 5.1.0?

I noticed today after a system-wide update that `pacman-optimize` no longer exists. Is it removed from pacman completely or just renamed?

Last edited by jasonwryan (2018-05-31 02:28:28)

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#2 2018-05-29 01:15:35

amish
Member
Registered: 2014-05-10
Posts: 398

Re: pacman-optimize and other utilties removed from pacman 5.1.0?

Install pacman-contrib

retracted.

Note: some commands are now part of pacman-contrib but not pacman-optimize (hence retracted)

Last edited by amish (2018-05-29 02:33:52)


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#3 2018-05-29 01:16:29

CarbonChauvinist
Member
Registered: 2012-06-16
Posts: 136

Re: pacman-optimize and other utilties removed from pacman 5.1.0?

Allan wrote:

pacman-optimize is placebo.  All files end up in your cache afterwards, so it looks fast...


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#4 2018-05-29 01:21:50

Buddlespit
Member
From: Chesapeake, Va.
Registered: 2014-02-07
Posts: 447

Re: pacman-optimize and other utilties removed from pacman 5.1.0?

zizheng wrote:

I noticed today after a system-wide update that `pacman-optimize` no longer exists. Is it removed from pacman completely or just renamed?

I noticed that a few pacman related commands stopped working after the update. I think something broke during the install. I just re-installed (re-updated?) pacman and everything started working again.


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#5 2018-05-29 01:34:23

Allan
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From: Brisbane, AU
Registered: 2007-06-09
Posts: 10,859
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Re: pacman-optimize and other utilties removed from pacman 5.1.0?

Buddlespit wrote:
zizheng wrote:

I noticed today after a system-wide update that `pacman-optimize` no longer exists. Is it removed from pacman completely or just renamed?

I noticed that a few pacman related commands stopped working after the update. I think something broke during the install. I just re-installed (re-updated?) pacman and everything started working again.

You probably need pacman-contrib.

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#6 2018-05-29 01:37:58

Trilby
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Registered: 2011-11-29
Posts: 21,695
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Re: pacman-optimize and other utilties removed from pacman 5.1.0?

Buddlespit wrote:

I noticed that a few pacman related commands stopped working after the update. I think something broke during the install. I just re-installed (re-updated?) pacman and everything started working again.

What on earth does this have to do with this thread?  Was pacman-optmize one of the commands that stopped working?  Did it *start* working again after reinstalling pacman?  That would be odd, as it has been removed.


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#7 2018-05-29 02:12:01

jasonwryan
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From: .nz
Registered: 2009-05-09
Posts: 27,534
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Re: pacman-optimize and other utilties removed from pacman 5.1.0?


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#8 2018-05-29 02:35:19

amish
Member
Registered: 2014-05-10
Posts: 398

Re: pacman-optimize and other utilties removed from pacman 5.1.0?

Allan wrote:

You probably need pacman-contrib.

actually pacman-optimize does not appear to be part of pacman-contrib - hence I retracted my previous answer.

Last edited by amish (2018-05-29 02:38:20)


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#9 2018-05-29 03:30:45

Toolybird
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Registered: 2017-09-30
Posts: 27

Re: pacman-optimize and other utilties removed from pacman 5.1.0?

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#10 2018-05-29 10:19:30

Buddlespit
Member
From: Chesapeake, Va.
Registered: 2014-02-07
Posts: 447

Re: pacman-optimize and other utilties removed from pacman 5.1.0?

Trilby wrote:
Buddlespit wrote:

I noticed that a few pacman related commands stopped working after the update. I think something broke during the install. I just re-installed (re-updated?) pacman and everything started working again.

What on earth does this have to do with this thread?  Was pacman-optmize one of the commands that stopped working?  Did it *start* working again after reinstalling pacman?  That would be odd, as it has been removed.

My package maintenance alias 'maint' stopped working altogether, which includes paccache and pacman-optimize. My error was paccache related.
But thank you for pointing out that pacman-optimize was removed. I'll remove it from my maint aliase.

Trilby wrote:

What on earth does this have to do with this thread?

I can't really tell if you're actually interested in knowing or if you're just being an ass. I'll assume you're interested. When I first ran into the paccache error, I checked the latest news to see if something change with pacman that I wasn't aware of. Then I checked this forum. Neither stated that something in pacman or pacman-contrib had needed human intervention. I re-installed pacman and everything started working again (still hadn't seen an error with pacman-optimize). I checked the news and forums again, which is when I found this thread.


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#11 2018-05-29 10:32:38

Trilby
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Registered: 2011-11-29
Posts: 21,695
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Re: pacman-optimize and other utilties removed from pacman 5.1.0?

Buddlespit wrote:

I can't really tell if you're actually interested in knowing or if you're just being an ass.

It was rhetorical which I guess you'd interpret as me being an 'ass': any issues with your alias are completely irrelevant to this thread.


"UNIX is simple and coherent..." - Dennis Ritchie, "GNU's Not UNIX" -  Richard Stallman

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#12 2018-05-31 21:30:36

CarterCox
Member
From: US
Registered: 2018-02-24
Posts: 113

Re: pacman-optimize and other utilties removed from pacman 5.1.0?

So given that pacman-contrib doesn't provide the "optimize" command (placebo or not), was it removed altogether? Should the Wiki be modified?

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#13 2018-06-01 05:07:14

amish
Member
Registered: 2014-05-10
Posts: 398

Re: pacman-optimize and other utilties removed from pacman 5.1.0?

CarterCox wrote:

So given that pacman-contrib doesn't provide the "optimize" command (placebo or not), was it removed altogether? Should the Wiki be modified?

Also if it was just a placebo, was this information wrong from the beginning?

This will attempt to put all the small files together in one (physical) location on the hard disk so that the hard disk head does not have to move so much when accessing all the data.


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#14 2018-06-01 11:34:20

rdeckard
Wiki Maintainer
Registered: 2015-01-28
Posts: 135

Re: pacman-optimize and other utilties removed from pacman 5.1.0?

CarterCox wrote:

So given that pacman-contrib doesn't provide the "optimize" command (placebo or not), was it removed altogether? Should the Wiki be modified?

Yes and done.

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#15 2018-06-01 11:39:49

Lone_Wolf
Member
From: Netherlands, Europe
Registered: 2005-10-04
Posts: 7,050

Re: pacman-optimize and other utilties removed from pacman 5.1.0?

When it was introduced (around 2006 ?) pacman was a lot slower then nowadays and pacman-optimize had a noticable effect .
Pacman improvements and changes in hardware have made it obsolete.


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#16 2018-06-01 11:49:45

CarterCox
Member
From: US
Registered: 2018-02-24
Posts: 113

Re: pacman-optimize and other utilties removed from pacman 5.1.0?

I noticed rankmirrors is gone as well in the installation media? How do we sort mirrors now?

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#17 2018-06-01 11:57:50

WorMzy
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From: Scotland
Registered: 2010-06-16
Posts: 8,865
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Re: pacman-optimize and other utilties removed from pacman 5.1.0?

The installation guide makes no mention of rankmirrors:

Select the mirrors
Packages to be installed must be downloaded from mirror servers, which are defined in /etc/pacman.d/mirrorlist. On the live system, all mirrors are enabled, and sorted by their synchronization status and speed at the time the installation image was created.

The higher a mirror is placed in the list, the more priority it is given when downloading a package. You may want to edit the file accordingly, and move the geographically closest mirrors to the top of the list, although other criteria should be taken into account.

This file will later be copied to the new system by pacstrap, so it is worth getting right.

If you want to deviate from the installation guide, you can just install pacman-contrib in the live environment. Alternatively, follow the installation guide, then use rankmirrors in the chroot.


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#18 2018-06-01 12:33:44

Trilby
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Registered: 2011-11-29
Posts: 21,695
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Re: pacman-optimize and other utilties removed from pacman 5.1.0?

Lone_Wolf wrote:

When it was introduced (around 2006 ?) pacman was a lot slower then nowadays and pacman-optimize had a noticable effect.

Are you sure?  I don't know that there has ever been evidence that pacman-optimize had any detectable effect at all that wouldn't simply be accounted for by all the files being recently cached.

Last edited by Trilby (2018-06-01 16:05:12)


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#19 2018-06-01 12:59:40

eschwartz
Trusted User/Bug Wrangler
Registered: 2014-08-08
Posts: 2,853

Re: pacman-optimize and other utilties removed from pacman 5.1.0?

Trilby wrote:
Lone_Wolf wrote:

When it was introduced (around 2006 ?) pacman was a lot slower then nowadays and pacman-optimize had a noticable effect.

Are you sure?  I don't know that there has every been evidence that pacman-optimize had any detectable effect at all that wouldn't simply be accounted for by all the files being recently cached.

I guess back in the day, caching was the biggest factor in pacman's speed. We must've gotten a lot slower since then. sad

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#20 2018-06-01 15:04:09

apg
Developer
Registered: 2012-11-10
Posts: 188

Re: pacman-optimize and other utilties removed from pacman 5.1.0?

I really don't know how the idea that pacman-optimize was just a placebo gained so much traction.  It may not have been some panacea that could magically speed up pacman for everybody and I'm sure some people confused the impact of caching the files with actual read speed.  Under the right conditions, though, it could make a massive difference on db read speed from the drive, which I was able to reliably reproduce in tests.

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#21 2018-06-01 15:32:05

mpan
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Registered: 2012-08-01
Posts: 494
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Re: pacman-optimize and other utilties removed from pacman 5.1.0?

apg, can you provide actual benchmarks (note the plural) that confirm the claim for any reasonably modern machines (note the plural)? Properly done benchmarks: perhaps what most people perceived as a gain from pacman-optimize was an accidental and temporary side-effect of caching; a kind of magical thinking.


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#22 2018-06-01 16:08:33

Trilby
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Registered: 2011-11-29
Posts: 21,695
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Re: pacman-optimize and other utilties removed from pacman 5.1.0?

I wouldn't claim it couldn't have had a noteworthy effect.  But I've seen many discussions of it but never a single bit of evidence.  Given how many times the evidence has been requested and sought after, it's continued absence makes me quite skeptical.


"UNIX is simple and coherent..." - Dennis Ritchie, "GNU's Not UNIX" -  Richard Stallman

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#23 2018-06-01 16:49:47

CarterCox
Member
From: US
Registered: 2018-02-24
Posts: 113

Re: pacman-optimize and other utilties removed from pacman 5.1.0?

WorMzy wrote:

The installation guide makes no mention of rankmirrors:

Select the mirrors
Packages to be installed must be downloaded from mirror servers, which are defined in /etc/pacman.d/mirrorlist. On the live system, all mirrors are enabled, and sorted by their synchronization status and speed at the time the installation image was created.

The higher a mirror is placed in the list, the more priority it is given when downloading a package. You may want to edit the file accordingly, and move the geographically closest mirrors to the top of the list, although other criteria should be taken into account.

This file will later be copied to the new system by pacstrap, so it is worth getting right.

If you want to deviate from the installation guide, you can just install pacman-contrib in the live environment. Alternatively, follow the installation guide, then use rankmirrors in the chroot.

No, but it does say they should be sorted, and moving the geographically closest mirrors to the top of the list is just bad advice, since they are usually not as fast as others (and by "not as fast" I mean complete crap. 50KB/s kind of crap). For example, I live in Argentina, and the ones that are always on top are evowise and kernel.org, the rest work mediocrely.

The installation guide also makes no mention of what that other criteria should be. Are we supposed to guess it? Or test every mirror manually?

If selecting fast mirrors is so important, why was the best and simplest tool to do it removed from the installation medium?

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#24 2018-06-01 17:06:37

progandy
Member
Registered: 2012-05-17
Posts: 3,404

Re: pacman-optimize and other utilties removed from pacman 5.1.0?

Trilby wrote:

I wouldn't claim it couldn't have had a noteworthy effect.  But I've seen many discussions of it but never a single bit of evidence.  Given how many times the evidence has been requested and sought after, it's continued absence makes me quite skeptical.

On my HDD, the time dropped from ~17s to ~2s after pacman-optimize. I dropped all caches in between runs, with a cached database I get around 0,2s. I'll see what I can get after a reboot later.

sudo sh -c 'echo 3 >/proc/sys/vm/drop_caches'
time pacman -Q bash

| alias CUTF='LANG=en_XX.UTF-8@POSIX ' |

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#25 2018-06-01 17:11:13

eschwartz
Trusted User/Bug Wrangler
Registered: 2014-08-08
Posts: 2,853

Re: pacman-optimize and other utilties removed from pacman 5.1.0?

progandy wrote:
Trilby wrote:

I wouldn't claim it couldn't have had a noteworthy effect.  But I've seen many discussions of it but never a single bit of evidence.  Given how many times the evidence has been requested and sought after, it's continued absence makes me quite skeptical.

On my HDD, the time dropped from ~17s to ~2s after pacman-optimize. I dropped all caches in between runs, with a cached database I get around 0,2s. I'll see what I can get after a reboot later.

sudo sh -c 'echo 3 >/proc/sys/vm/drop_caches'
time pacman -Q bash

If it is taking 17 seconds to return that information, I think something is wrong but not with pacman.

I'm also quite skeptical about this claim that defragging the directory accomplishes something other than reading the files into the disk cache, since I and many others were never able to reproduce.

apg wrote:

I really don't know how the idea that pacman-optimize was just a placebo gained so much traction.  It may not have been some panacea that could magically speed up pacman for everybody and I'm sure some people confused the impact of caching the files with actual read speed.  Under the right conditions, though, it could make a massive difference on db read speed from the drive, which I was able to reliably reproduce in tests.

But wouldn't a script which ran pacman -Qi > /dev/null, do the same thing while being more obvious what the actual effect is?

Last edited by eschwartz (2018-06-01 17:14:39)


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