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#1 2018-08-10 14:38:28

neosix
Member
From: Serbia
Registered: 2012-11-26
Posts: 10

Future of wayland and X11

Hello guys. I would really like to switch to Linux permanently, but because of my work I heavily depend on various X11 automation tools like: xdotools, wmctrl, xvkbd ...

As you know  none of them work under Wayland.

I am happy to continue to use xorg, I don't care about Wayland,  but I'm afraid that at some point xorg  will be deprecated.  I don't want to spend countless hours on Linux  just to switch back to Windows, after few years.

So what are your thoughts? Will xorg be  deprecated completely or are there plans for Wayland to offer some  security module for accessibility like MacOS.

Last edited by neosix (2018-08-10 14:39:14)


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#2 2018-08-10 14:49:13

Slithery
Forum Moderator
From: Norfolk, UK
Registered: 2013-12-01
Posts: 2,761

Re: Future of wayland and X11

X won't be going anywhere for some time yet. The way I see it that won't be until Wayland has reached feature parity, which means that by the time it is eventually dropped you will be able to switch as there will be Wayland native versions of the tools you describe.

Moving to GNU/Linux Discussion as this isn't a support thread.


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#3 2018-08-10 15:05:59

etnull
Member
From: Hackerland
Registered: 2018-04-26
Posts: 31

Re: Future of wayland and X11

I don't think Wayland can take the lead without similar tools and wider general support.
Plus, how can you 'depreciate' something in open source? People gonna support it anyway, especially something so huge as xorg,
imagine how many corporate infrastructure configured for xorg, not to mention small tinkerers who just want useful tools, like those you mention.
Also if deeply inside you are still considering Windows, why not just use it instead, maybe it means that its drawbacks not critical to you in the first place?

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#4 2018-08-10 15:08:13

neosix
Member
From: Serbia
Registered: 2012-11-26
Posts: 10

Re: Future of wayland and X11

I was hoping to hear something like that, because I don't want to be locked on Windows till the end of my career smile

Thank you for prompt reply


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#5 2018-08-10 15:09:21

Trilby
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Registered: 2011-11-29
Posts: 19,755
Website

Re: Future of wayland and X11

neosix wrote:

As you know  none of them work under Wayland

Nor does much of anything else.  Wayland is basically a toy, or at best a demo of something in the works.

Yes, someday X11 will be gone.  But two points to consider: 1) personally, given it's record so far, I'm highly skeptical that Wayland will be it's actual successor, and 2) whatever X11's successor actually is will also eventually be gone and replaced by something else, as will any Windows system you are considering as an alternative.

Nothing lasts forever.  But anyone who gave you the impression that X11 is soon to be on the way out was either lying (perhaps in the form of spreading Wayland marketing hype) or just didn't know what they were talking about (perhaps in the form of being caught up in Wayland marketing hype).


"UNIX is simple and coherent..." - Dennis Ritchie, "GNU's Not UNIX" -  Richard Stallman

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#6 2018-08-10 15:22:33

Eschwartz
Trusted User/Bug Wrangler
Registered: 2014-08-08
Posts: 2,147

Re: Future of wayland and X11

I'm extremely cynical about wayland, due to the fact that it's been ten years so far and currently has not progressed past the point that even to use lots of software on wayland you need to use the embedded "xwayland" xorg server running inside wayland to wrap the software.

Certainly, many many many people still use Xorg. Some desktop environments even support wayland too...

I expect by the time wayland is actually a full replacement for Xorg, it will... well, it will have replacements for those too. tongue But that might take another 10 years, and in the meantime Xorg is not going anywhere.


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#7 2018-08-10 15:49:43

neosix
Member
From: Serbia
Registered: 2012-11-26
Posts: 10

Re: Future of wayland and X11

I was desperate last few days, because I really like Linux, but Wayland is useless.

You can't  send keystrokes, move mouse, move windows,  you can't even get active window. And all that because of security?

But guess what it's not safe walking down the street, something can kill you, so let's just stay in the house and never go out again smile

The whole beauty of Linux to me is freedom and fun tweaking the things the way you like it. Wayland is so restricted that it kills the very essence of Linux.

Guys, thank you for replies, I really  appreciate it.

Last edited by neosix (2018-08-10 15:50:21)


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#8 2018-08-10 23:00:55

ngoonee
Forum Fellow
From: Between Thailand and Singapore
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 7,135

Re: Future of wayland and X11

neosix wrote:

You can't  send keystrokes, move mouse, move windows,  you can't even get active window. And all that because of security?

Without wanting to push Wayland specifically, this dismissiveness of security is exactly why computing systems are having to lock things down... computing systems are exposed to far more than an individual walking on a single street would be, in terms of breadth of contact.


Allan-Volunteer on the (topic being discussed) mailn lists. You never get the people who matters attention on the forums.
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#9 2018-08-10 23:19:23

Trilby
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Registered: 2011-11-29
Posts: 19,755
Website

Re: Future of wayland and X11

While I place a very high value on security and well designed software, the strategy of saying "you shouldn't want to do that" is not a sane policy.  Yet this has been the approach of wayland from the start.  Can you have a system panel?  No, you should not want to have one.  Can you have one client talk to another client? No, you should not want to do this.  Can you turn on your computer and do anything even remotely productive with it?  No, you should not want to be productive: here, watch a cat video.


"UNIX is simple and coherent..." - Dennis Ritchie, "GNU's Not UNIX" -  Richard Stallman

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#10 2018-08-11 03:30:19

ngoonee
Forum Fellow
From: Between Thailand and Singapore
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 7,135

Re: Future of wayland and X11

Trilby wrote:

While I place a very high value on security and well designed software, the strategy of saying "you shouldn't want to do that" is not a sane policy.  Yet this has been the approach of wayland from the start.  Can you have a system panel?  No, you should not want to have one.  Can you have one client talk to another client? No, you should not want to do this.  Can you turn on your computer and do anything even remotely productive with it?  No, you should not want to be productive: here, watch a cat video.

This is more fair, and again I'm not trying to defend the Wayland policy (have not used it, may or may not eventually get round to trying it out), just responding to security attitudes far more problematic (in my opinion) than the policy decisions of an open source project.


Allan-Volunteer on the (topic being discussed) mailn lists. You never get the people who matters attention on the forums.
jasonwryan-Installing Arch is a measure of your literacy. Maintaining Arch is a measure of your diligence. Contributing to Arch is a measure of your competence.
Griemak-Bleeding edge, not bleeding flat. Edge denotes falls will occur from time to time. Bring your own parachute.

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