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#1 2018-11-28 21:29:57

Morganamilo
Member
Registered: 2017-12-05
Posts: 61

Cracking down on low quality support requests for AUR helpers

I've seen an increasing of low quality posts asking for support with AUR helpers. Especially with yay (although I like to think that's just because of its popularity and not intrinsic to yay).

I really hate seeing users spamming the forums and other official channels. I try to discourage[1] it but nobody ever reads the readme anyway.

Would you mods be willing to crack down on low effort support requests for AUR helpers (or even just yay)?

For reference I mean posts like this[2] and this[3]. I would be happy to just see them dustbinned, OP told to read up on how makepkg works and ask the question upstream.

[1] https://github.com/Jguer/yay#support
[2] https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=242154
[3] https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=242307

Last edited by Morganamilo (2018-11-28 21:33:18)

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#2 2018-11-28 21:34:00

headkase
Member
Registered: 2011-12-06
Posts: 1,828

Re: Cracking down on low quality support requests for AUR helpers

Thanks for the concern. wink

Perhaps this, perhaps not: http://jasonwryan.com/blog/2012/08/18/trolls/

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#3 2018-11-28 21:41:19

ewaller
Administrator
From: Pasadena, CA
Registered: 2009-07-13
Posts: 16,270

Re: Cracking down on low quality support requests for AUR helpers

For a moment there, I was wondering how you got into the moderator sub-forum big_smile

You are right, and we hate seeing them too.  They inevitably end up in the AUR Issues forum (where they belong), unless it turns pear-shaped and winds up in TGN or the dustbin.
The problem is, these are legitimate programs and it is not really up to the moderators to decide the merits of any given tool and censor them upon that judgement.   We can and do suggest that users learn the right way, and we will remove things when it becomes clear that the thread is a call for help by someone running an Arch fork. 

I use cower and aurutils.  (In addition to git and makepkg).  Do we draw the line to the left or right of aurutils? of cower? of yaourt?
They are tools. Like a hammer, a firearm, an axe, or a chainsaw.  In the right hands, they can be useful; in the wrong hands, disastrous.


Nothing is too wonderful to be true, if it be consistent with the laws of nature -- Michael Faraday
Sometimes it is the people no one can imagine anything of who do the things no one can imagine. -- Alan Turing
---
How to Ask Questions the Smart Way

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#4 2018-11-28 21:42:35

jasonwryan
Anarchist
From: .nz
Registered: 2009-05-09
Posts: 26,191
Website

Re: Cracking down on low quality support requests for AUR helpers

My view is that we are generally quite active moderating these boards; new posters are afforded some latitude, but that extends only so far.

AUR helpers have a history of being problematic; and I don't see that changing. There is no need to "crack down" on specific types of posts, if they don't meet the standards that are clearly laid out in the Code of Conduct, they'll be dealt with.


headkase wrote:

Good times! smile


Arch + dwm   •   Mercurial repos  •   Github

Registered Linux User #482438

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#5 2018-11-28 21:53:49

Morganamilo
Member
Registered: 2017-12-05
Posts: 61

Re: Cracking down on low quality support requests for AUR helpers

headkase wrote:

Thanks for the concern. wink

Perhaps this, perhaps not: http://jasonwryan.com/blog/2012/08/18/trolls/

I'd hope not. I'm pretty level headed at least, so I'm happy to go with whatever the mods say and won't lash out.

ewaller wrote:

I use cower and aurutils.  (In addition to git and makepkg).  Do we draw the line to the left or right of aurutils? of cower? of yaourt?
They are tools. Like a hammer, a firearm, an axe, or a chainsaw.  In the right hands, they can be useful; in the wrong hands, disastrous.

My emphasis was on "low quality" (I get that's subjective though). A total crackdown like how arch derivatives are dealt would definitely be too far

jasonwryan wrote:

My view is that we are generally quite active moderating these boards; new posters are afforded some latitude, but that extends only so far.

AUR helpers have a history of being problematic; and I don't see that changing. There is no need to "crack down" on specific types of posts, if they don't meet the standards that are clearly laid out in the Code of Conduct, they'll be dealt with.

Fair enough, Glad to have your (and other's) opinion. Keep doing what you're doing then.

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#6 2018-11-28 22:37:02

Trilby
Inspector Parrot
Registered: 2011-11-29
Posts: 20,422
Website

Re: Cracking down on low quality support requests for AUR helpers

I'll just add thanks for suggesting it.  It took me a minute to realize that you are the author of yay.  I have to admit to a mostly ignorant lack of appreciation for yay ... you named it after yaourt, so it inherits some of my view of yaourt.  But if you wish to be proactive in preventing foolish attempts to use your tool becoming a hassle for this community, that already sets it apart from its namesake.

As a community member I can and will echo your wishes when I see (poor quality) yay posts and suggest the OP follow their aur-helper's author's advice.


"UNIX is simple and coherent..." - Dennis Ritchie, "GNU's Not UNIX" -  Richard Stallman

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#7 2018-11-28 23:06:26

Morganamilo
Member
Registered: 2017-12-05
Posts: 61

Re: Cracking down on low quality support requests for AUR helpers

Heh, actually it was not me who named it, so I get to dodge the blame there.
Yay was already a year old before I found it and eventually became the largest contributor.

I get your concerns but at this point the design is already set in stone. And I think if it did
change too much, people would just move to the next pacman wrapper. I've considered
starting over but who wants another helper eh?

I'm quite a fan of Alad's aurutils, and regularly recommend it to people, even on yay's issue tracker.
So rather than changing the fundamentals of yay I'd rather people just use that instead (I'd probably be
an aurutils user too if I didn't maintain yay)

Excuse me if that got a little off topic.

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#8 2018-11-28 23:23:27

ngoonee
Forum Fellow
From: Between Thailand and Singapore
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 7,186

Re: Cracking down on low quality support requests for AUR helpers

Stepping back a bit, I think the reason for low-quality posts mostly being about AUR helpers is the same as most low-quality posts being about installation/setup issues (and also the same reason which drives so many 'easy Arch' distros).

The first hurdle to being an Arch user is installing it.

The second hurdle is installing something not in the repos, which is fairly common (I'd like to see some stats on what percentage of our installed-base DOESN'T have AUR packages).

At both hurdles, there will be self-selection between the self-sufficient users who figure things out (based on greater experience, resourcefulness, or sheer dumb luck like myself) and those who get very lost and require help. AUR helpers are very enticing to the latter group, no matter what warnings and advise is given, because there's already been self selection against those traits (reading documentation and understanding it).

So those hurdles are like the first 2 years of any tertiary education system, they act as a sieve which highlights those who are struggling. Which is also the reason 3rd/4th year subjects tend to be less problematic, those really struggling don't make it that far.

All of which is to say.... nope, not much that can be done in my opinion.


Allan-Volunteer on the (topic being discussed) mailn lists. You never get the people who matters attention on the forums.
jasonwryan-Installing Arch is a measure of your literacy. Maintaining Arch is a measure of your diligence. Contributing to Arch is a measure of your competence.
Griemak-Bleeding edge, not bleeding flat. Edge denotes falls will occur from time to time. Bring your own parachute.

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#9 2018-11-28 23:56:55

Alad
Wiki Admin/IRC Op/TU
From: Bagelstan
Registered: 2014-05-04
Posts: 1,872
Website

Re: Cracking down on low quality support requests for AUR helpers

I started my own forum thread for aurutils in the "community contributions" section to keep all support requests (and other topics) in one place.


Mods are just community members who have the occasionally necessary option to move threads around and edit posts. -- Trilby
Honest Alad's Package Emporium—Now with added bugs! (Grand reopening: December 1st 2018)

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#10 2018-11-29 00:08:06

Morganamilo
Member
Registered: 2017-12-05
Posts: 61

Re: Cracking down on low quality support requests for AUR helpers

Well if you include github that makes it two places wink

Was making a dedicated topic actually effective? Might end up making one if so.

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#11 2018-11-29 00:10:46

jasonwryan
Anarchist
From: .nz
Registered: 2009-05-09
Posts: 26,191
Website

Re: Cracking down on low quality support requests for AUR helpers

Morganamilo wrote:

Was making a dedicated topic actually effective? Might end up making one if so.

Only if you state that all support should be on github and then ask the staff to lock the thread.

Then on github, direct them at the forum thread for help.


Arch + dwm   •   Mercurial repos  •   Github

Registered Linux User #482438

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#12 2018-11-29 00:13:34

Alad
Wiki Admin/IRC Op/TU
From: Bagelstan
Registered: 2014-05-04
Posts: 1,872
Website

Re: Cracking down on low quality support requests for AUR helpers

And private emails...

On these forums, I haven't seen posts for aurutils apart from said thread. I can't guarantee that your audience will be as attentive as mine on this regard.

Either way, with an existing thread the mods could simply dustbin new yay threads as duplicates.


Mods are just community members who have the occasionally necessary option to move threads around and edit posts. -- Trilby
Honest Alad's Package Emporium—Now with added bugs! (Grand reopening: December 1st 2018)

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#13 2018-11-29 00:48:42

Morganamilo
Member
Registered: 2017-12-05
Posts: 61

Re: Cracking down on low quality support requests for AUR helpers

jasonwryan wrote:
Morganamilo wrote:

Was making a dedicated topic actually effective? Might end up making one if so.

Only if you state that all support should be on github and then ask the staff to lock the thread.

Then on github, direct them at the forum thread for help.

I love it. Better yet I'll just link to the aurutils repo.

Alad wrote:

And private emails...

On these forums, I haven't seen posts for aurutils apart from said thread. I can't guarantee that your audience will be as attentive as mine on this regard.

Either way, with an existing thread the mods could simply dustbin new yay threads as duplicates.

Another benefit of not being the one that owns the repo wink

I think I'll make a yay topic at some point, worth a try at least. I'd rather not lock it though,
I'm thinking of linking the repo for bugs/feature requests but keep the thread open for discussion/questions.

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#14 2018-11-29 01:19:17

Alad
Wiki Admin/IRC Op/TU
From: Bagelstan
Registered: 2014-05-04
Posts: 1,872
Website

Re: Cracking down on low quality support requests for AUR helpers

Morganamilo wrote:

I love it. Better yet I'll just link to the aurutils repo.

I'd rather you come to my house, rob me of my belongings, and set everything on fire.


Mods are just community members who have the occasionally necessary option to move threads around and edit posts. -- Trilby
Honest Alad's Package Emporium—Now with added bugs! (Grand reopening: December 1st 2018)

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#15 2018-11-29 01:29:54

ngoonee
Forum Fellow
From: Between Thailand and Singapore
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 7,186

Re: Cracking down on low quality support requests for AUR helpers

Alad wrote:

And private emails...

On these forums, I haven't seen posts for aurutils apart from said thread. I can't guarantee that your audience will be as attentive as mine on this regard.

Pretty sure yay and aurutils have very little overlap in usage. That may change if he links to your repo though....


Allan-Volunteer on the (topic being discussed) mailn lists. You never get the people who matters attention on the forums.
jasonwryan-Installing Arch is a measure of your literacy. Maintaining Arch is a measure of your diligence. Contributing to Arch is a measure of your competence.
Griemak-Bleeding edge, not bleeding flat. Edge denotes falls will occur from time to time. Bring your own parachute.

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#16 2018-11-29 23:15:55

Morganamilo
Member
Registered: 2017-12-05
Posts: 61

Re: Cracking down on low quality support requests for AUR helpers

Post made: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php … 5#p1819315

Alad wrote:

I'd rather you come to my house, rob me of my belongings, and set everything on fire.

You're safe for now. Maybe I'll think of something for April 1st

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