[solved] Rolling vs fixed release distro for Gnome?

l0tek · 2019-04-18 13:59:22

While I absolutely love Arch and haven't had any serious issue with its "rolling" updates, I stopped using the Gnome DE because updating it (major versions in particular) seem to make it increasingly unstable until I have to reinstall.

In your opinion would using a fixed release distro like Debian make for a more stable Gnome experience?

Last edited by l0tek (2019-04-18 15:30:46)

Trilby · 2019-04-18 14:14:07

If a "reinstall" fixes your problems, they are not due to the newer version of gnome but to your failure to properly adjust some relevant configs. Reinstalling is never a sane solution to anything.

You'd face the same problems on Debian, just after a time lag (not less often, just "phase shifted"). That said, periodically reinstalling from scratch is the advice given by most point release distros. So if that's how you want to do things, use one of those.

Slithery · 2019-04-18 15:06:33

I agree with Trilby here that the problem isn't due to a lack of 'reinstallation'.

However, it is true that you are likely to get a better Gnome experience with something like Fedora. This is because Arch is always one of the first distros to update its Gnome packages as they will usually be released as soon as they build correctly with not much additional testing. This means that a lot of the initial bugs will be found by our users first - just check the forum every time there's a new release and you'll see dozens of new issues appear.

On the other hand if you take Fedora then because Gnome is their only official desktop any bugs will be release blockers, the new version of Fedora won't be released until they are fixed. What usually happens is the Arch users report bugs to the Gnome developers (who are also mostly Fedora developers as well) who will then have a few weeks to fix them before the next release is due, that's how the release schedule is planned.

l0tek · 2019-04-18 15:32:18

Thanks for your replies

Head_on_a_Stick · 2019-04-18 15:37:26

Trilby wrote:

You'd face the same problems on Debian, just after a time lag (not less often, just "phase shifted").

Not for the stable release, the package versions stay the same once the branch is frozen.

For example, Debian buster is now up to GNOME 3.30 and it will stay on that version until EOL in about 5 years time.

l0tek wrote:

would using a fixed release distro like Debian make for a more stable Gnome experience?

Yes.

Trilby · 2019-04-18 16:56:19

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

Not for the stable release, the package versions stay the same once the branch is frozen.

I suppose that's true. In that case, though, it really would be the same problem and same (bad) solution: in arch the OP feels they need to reinstall every time there is a new major version of gnome; in debian there is no other way to update to the new major version of gnome except to reinstall (a newer release of) the whole OS.

So in arch, you have the option to fix the problem without a reinstallation, in debain, there is no choice.

EDIT: for clarity, I have no gripe with debian - it may be near the top of my list of point-release distros. But to me the whole concept of a point-release distro (at least how it always seems to be implemented) is just a brain-dead design.

Last edited by Trilby (2019-04-18 16:58:05)

Head_on_a_Stick · 2019-04-18 16:59:33

Trilby wrote:

in debian there is no other way to update to the new major version of gnome except to reinstall (a newer release of) the whole OS

Not really: our family laptop has been running Debian stable since jessie was frozen and we're on stretch at the moment with a dist-upgrade to buster due in a few months

Debian even publish a detailed guide for every new release:

https://www.debian.org/releases/stretch … ng.en.html

Upgrades between releases can be problematic for Ubuntu users (apparently) but Debian is actually pretty good in that respect.

mandog · 2019-04-19 10:48:17

Well i fail to understand the posters problem I installed Arch in December 2005 yes that is correct started with KDE then went to gnome when KDE4 came out.

I have never had to reinstall Arch in all those years Gnome has been been more stable on Arch than any other desktop,

Yes it has problems with extensions on some releases but that is not Gnomes fault as some might argue,

As far as i'm concerned if you can't fix it then you should not use Arch.

Debian uses distro upgrade that is reinstalling the whole shebang the same as using a ISO so does Ubuntu and Fedora.
Only a rolling release updates only what is required!

Last edited by mandog (2019-04-19 10:50:00)

Head_on_a_Stick · 2019-04-19 12:03:36

mandog wrote:

Debian uses distro upgrade that is reinstalling the whole shebang the same as using a ISO

No, upgrading between releases just bumps the package versions, there is no re-installation involved.

Trilby · 2019-04-19 14:10:44

HoaS, your posts are self-contradictory. I claimed debian would face the same problems if one uppdated to a new major version of Gnome. In reply you said one doesn't update, as the package versions stay the same as long as one is on one stable release. In reply it's noted that one then can't get a new version of gnome in debian and you repond that that's not true either as the upgrade "just bumps the package versions". You can't have it both ways.

In either case, one would either A) face the exact same problem in debian, just after a time lag, (if they upgrade from one debian release to the next) or B) need to completely reinstall debian to get the new version of gnome.

So my original point holds: one would be either in a similar or worse position in debian. I.E., in response to the OP's real question, No, debian would not be any easier in this regard.

Last edited by Trilby (2019-04-19 14:12:09)

seth · 2019-04-19 14:40:58

I think what HoaS means is that you can upgrade debian from point release to point release w/o re-installing the entire system.
Afair, that's actually true for all major PR distros, just that every point release upgrade tends to be quite an adventure ;-)

The point releases will then better not ship any early version of especially gnome (because it has a habit of breaking everything - "bigly")
So w/ eg. ubuntu (simpler version scheme you'd go from 19.3 to 20.3 or similar and from gnome 3.30.15 to gnome 3.32.12.

Head_on_a_Stick · 2019-04-19 15:11:30

Trilby wrote:

it's noted that one then can't get a new version of gnome in debian and you repond that that's not true either as the upgrade "just bumps the package versions".

I said that the package versions are bumped between releases.

So if somebody was running Debian 8 (jessie) with GNOME 3.16 and they wanted a new version then the only way to do that (apart from switching to one of the development branches) would be to change /etc/apt/sources.list to point to the Debian 9 (stretch) repositories instead and run

# apt update && apt-get dist-upgrade

But that would not be the same as re-installing because $HOME would be untouched, as would any local configuration files such as those in /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/

As I said, the family laptop has had the same Debian system installed for about five years now and I don't intend to ever re-install, I will just continue upgrading to new releases.

@seth, "point releases" in Debian are updates within a given release:

https://wiki.debian.org/DebianReleases/PointReleases

Trilby · 2019-04-19 16:08:01

Yes, so then one would get a new major version of gnome, in debian, so my very first point that you argued against does indeed hold: the OP would be in the same boat in debian as in arch.

Head_on_a_Stick · 2019-04-19 17:02:06

Trilby wrote:

Yes, so then one would get a new major version of gnome, in debian

Only if they upgraded to a new release, which is happens every two years or so.

In Arch the versions would be updated continuously every time the system was updated but in Debian stable the versions would only be bumped after a few years and then only once and with versions that have been tested by other Debian users for about six months.

And the user could even stick with the same release after a new stable version was out, it would still receive security-related updates (but no version bumps).

I use Debian stable on the family laptop precisely because it is so hands-off in respect of maintenance — with unattended-upgrades enabled I don't have to touch the machine at all for at least two years, I could even leave it alone for five years if I wanted to and everything would stay exactly the same (apart from security fixes, which do not bump the versions).

Trilby · 2019-04-19 17:19:21

This is surreal. You seem to completely disregard my "either way" points above and whichever one I highlight you argue "it doesn't have to be that way". Yes, but in either case they are in the same or worse position than in arch. But I'm done talking to a wall.

"You don't like option A, then you can opt for B. What? You think B is worse? Well, you don't have to do option B, you can chose A!"

Last edited by Trilby (2019-04-19 17:20:01)

Head_on_a_Stick · 2019-04-19 17:40:56

Trilby wrote:

but in either case they are in the same or worse position than in arch

The salient difference being that in Arch the user has to change the versions all of the time but in Debian it is a matter of choice.

Sorry for irritating you, I was just trying to explain the available options.

Arch Linux

#1 2019-04-18 13:59:22

[solved] Rolling vs fixed release distro for Gnome?

#2 2019-04-18 14:14:07

Re: [solved] Rolling vs fixed release distro for Gnome?

#3 2019-04-18 15:06:33

Re: [solved] Rolling vs fixed release distro for Gnome?

#4 2019-04-18 15:32:18

Re: [solved] Rolling vs fixed release distro for Gnome?

#5 2019-04-18 15:37:26

Re: [solved] Rolling vs fixed release distro for Gnome?

#6 2019-04-18 16:56:19

Re: [solved] Rolling vs fixed release distro for Gnome?

#7 2019-04-18 16:59:33

Re: [solved] Rolling vs fixed release distro for Gnome?

#8 2019-04-19 10:48:17

Re: [solved] Rolling vs fixed release distro for Gnome?

#9 2019-04-19 12:03:36

Re: [solved] Rolling vs fixed release distro for Gnome?

#10 2019-04-19 14:10:44

Re: [solved] Rolling vs fixed release distro for Gnome?

#11 2019-04-19 14:40:58

Re: [solved] Rolling vs fixed release distro for Gnome?

#12 2019-04-19 15:11:30

Re: [solved] Rolling vs fixed release distro for Gnome?

#13 2019-04-19 16:08:01

Re: [solved] Rolling vs fixed release distro for Gnome?

#14 2019-04-19 17:02:06

Re: [solved] Rolling vs fixed release distro for Gnome?

#15 2019-04-19 17:19:21

Re: [solved] Rolling vs fixed release distro for Gnome?

#16 2019-04-19 17:40:56

Re: [solved] Rolling vs fixed release distro for Gnome?

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