Should pacman -Syy xfce4 xfce4-goodies pull in xorg et al? [Solved]

stonecraft · 2019-06-25 23:20:56

I was just doing a fresh installation of Arch, and after installing I ran

pacman -Syy xfce4 xfce4-goodies```

after saying yes to all, it appeared to install correctly, however I was unable to startx (the error I got was

/etc/X11/xinit/xserverrc: line 2: /usr/bin/X: no such file or directory

. I then tried installing xorg manually

pacman -Syy xorg

and it installed (not reinstalled), leading me to conclude that X had not been properly installed.
Next I got an error about xinitrc, and found that there was indeed no .xinitrc in my home directory. So I copied it from /etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc to ~/.xinitrc and then added

exec xfce4

to the last line and saved.
After doing that, X starts starting and then stops before ever leaving the shell

https://i.imgur.com/Kb6Ca9e.jpg

I could keep going down the rabbit hole and fixing each error as I come to it, but I suspect I am either forgetting something or somehow the dependencies got messed up. I've installed xfce4 on Arch before, and I'm pretty sure I didn't have to manually install xorg and other dependencies. IIRC I didn't have to do anything with xinit either, it all 'just worked'.

Has something changed about how xfce4 dependencies are handled? The Arch Wiki on XFCE does not mention xinitrc or the need to install xorg and other dependencies, leading me to think that this is all supposed to be handled by pacman.

Am I overlooking something? Is something screwy with the dependency lists?

Edit: The answer is yes, this is expected. The various X and Xorg related packages are related in complex ways, with some required in certain cases and others not. Most distros assume that if you are using XFCE then you will also want a fully working X to support it and explicitly include everything in the dependencies. Arch is designed to be customized, and that means that even fairly uncommon use cases are supported (such as forgoing X in favor of Wayland). Dependencies only cover when a specific package is 100% in all cases required. There are cases where something is a dependency in 99% of use cases, but cannot be listed as such because Arch is caters to the 1% who want to do it differently.

Last edited by stonecraft (2019-06-27 04:31:28)

Trilby · 2019-06-25 23:27:01

Stop doing partial upgrades and upgrade your system properly:
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Pacman

Also, while it will not directly harmful your system, you should stop using a needless double -y flag as it's just a (minor) drain on community resources for no reason.

Last edited by Trilby (2019-06-25 23:32:50)

jasonwryan · 2019-06-25 23:32:24

Read the Code of Conduct and only post thumbnails http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Cod … s_and_code and don't post images of text, paste the actual text.

stonecraft · 2019-06-26 00:02:00

Trilby, I ran

pacman -Syu

right before installing, is that not enough? Or should I never use the `u` flag when installing select packages, even if I just ran an upgrade (which from my understanding it should neither harm nor help).

here is the output from the thing I took a pic of (sorry about that, I was lazy and didnt want to save my stdout and then transfer it to my working computer in order to paste), it is showing that xinit is not installed (shouldn't it have been pulled in?)

X.Org X Server 1.20.5
X Protocol Version 11, Revision 0
Build Operating System: Linux Arch Linux
Current Operating System: Linux live-rescue 5.1.14-arch1-1-ARCH #1 SMP PREEMPT Sat Jun 22 16:28:48 UTC 2019 x86_64
Kernel command line: BOOT_IMAGE=/boot/vmlinuz-linux root=UUID=03bc0744-c7ed-4901-9957-79d2d089a9c1 rw quiet
Build Date: 30 May 2019  06:44:40PM
 
Current version of pixman: 0.38.4
	Before reporting problems, check http://wiki.x.org
	to make sure that you have the latest version.
Markers: (--) probed, (**) from config file, (==) default setting,
	(++) from command line, (!!) notice, (II) informational,
	(WW) warning, (EE) error, (NI) not implemented, (??) unknown.
(==) Log file: "/home/fixer/.local/share/xorg/Xorg.0.log", Time: Tue Jun 25 23:48:54 2019
(==) Using system config directory "/usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d"
xf86EnableIOPorts: failed to set IOPL for I/O (Operation not permitted)
nvc0_screen_create:1092 - Error allocating PGRAPH context for M2MF: -16
(II) modeset(G0): Initializing kms color map for depth 24, 8 bpc.
(II) modeset(G1): Initializing kms color map for depth 24, 8 bpc.
(II) modeset(0): Initializing kms color map for depth 24, 8 bpc.
The XKEYBOARD keymap compiler (xkbcomp) reports:
> Warning:          Unsupported high keycode 372 for name <I372> ignored
>                   X11 cannot support keycodes above 255.
>                   This warning only shows for the first high keycode.
> Internal error:   Could not resolve keysym XF86MonBrightnessCycle
> Internal error:   Could not resolve keysym XF86RotationLockToggle
Errors from xkbcomp are not fatal to the X server
/home/fixer/.xinitrc: line 51: twm: command not found
/home/fixer/.xinitrc: line 52: xclock: command not found
xterm: cannot load font "-Misc-Fixed-medium-R-*-*-13-120-75-75-C-120-ISO10646-1"
xterm: cannot load font "-Misc-Fixed-medium-R-*-*-13-120-75-75-C-120-ISO10646-1"
xterm: cannot load font "-Misc-Fixed-medium-R-*-*-13-120-75-75-C-120-ISO10646-1"
xterm: cannot load font "-misc-fixed-medium-r-semicondensed--13-120-75-75-c-60-iso10646-1"
xterm: cannot load font "-misc-fixed-medium-r-semicondensed--13-120-75-75-c-60-iso10646-1"
xterm: cannot load font "-misc-fixed-medium-r-semicondensed--13-120-75-75-c-60-iso10646-1"
xinit: connection to X server lost

waiting for X server to shut down (II) Server terminated successfully (0). Closing log file.

after manually installing xinit, startx brought up three terminals, and I had to type

startxfce4

in order to get to xfce. I do have

exec startxfce4

in .xinitrc, so I should not have to do that, right?

In any case, if I make a fresh installation and then run

pacman -Sy xfce4 xfce4-goodies

should that give me something that will work without additional installation/configuration?

jasonwryan · 2019-06-26 00:09:41

Stop running -Sy $package: it breaks things.

Paste your xinitrc: I am guessing that is not in line with the wiki either.

stonecraft · 2019-06-26 00:21:50

Too late, I decided to just nuke that install and start again. But it was just the default file with one extra line, no other changes:

exec startxfce4

Regarding the partial upgrade thing, it still isn't clear to me why that results in a partial upgrade even if I just ran

pacman -Syu

. Shouldn't that have maximally upgraded everything? What does the `u` flag for a package do on a system that has just been upgraded?

jasonwryan · 2019-06-26 00:24:41

If you have just upgraded (-u), then you can run -S $package. Don't run sync (-y) without the -u.

Read the xinitrc page on the wiki and fix your file.

Trilby · 2019-06-26 00:26:43

stonecraft wrote:

Trilby, I ran
pacman -Syu
right before installing

Like eating a granola bar before swallowing a cyanide pill is enough, sure.

The fact that you had previously properly updated your system may make catastrophic failure a less likely result from a partial upgrade, but it it still a horrible idea. Just don't do it. Period.

Do a full system upgrade, or just install a package with `pacman -S $pkg`, but never ever use `pacman -Sy $pkg` or `pacman -Syy $pkg`. But I'm not saying anything here that isn't well documented in the wiki.

If you will not follow well documented proper procedures for installing / maintaining an arch system, that is up to you, but then we can't help you here.

Last edited by Trilby (2019-06-26 00:27:16)

stonecraft · 2019-06-26 00:54:29

Well, I am not making a conscious decision to go against advice, but the wiki is vast and I don't have a photographic memory. It's easy to miss a one-word link to something critical. I just wanted to know what the expected behavior of what I did is (thanks for pointing out the relevant documents). If you really want to help newbies in the newbie corner, linking to the relevant lines on the relevant pages/quoting is extremely helpful.

Also I think I just skipped over the warnings about partial upgrades not thinking that upgrading a single packages can also be thought of as partially upgrading the system. I suppose it's really obvious from the standpoint of a rolling release.

Last edited by stonecraft (2019-06-26 01:13:02)

stonecraft · 2019-06-26 03:53:57

So I did a fresh reinstall where I tried installing everything at pacstrap step

pacstrap /mnt base base-devel xfce4 xfce4-goodies lightdm

After rebooting into the new system and running

pacman -Syu

/usr/bin/X did not exist. Nor was xorg-server installed. When I did install xorg-server, /usr/bin/X existed and X started.

Your points about reading up on xinit configuration and other things are well taken, but I would still like to know: Am I incorrect in my expectation installing those packages should result in the installation of all required packages, including xorg-server?

Edit: I am happily up and working now, I both had to install xorg-server manually (don't get why I had to do that) and make sure that there was no `exec` in .xinitrc prior to

exec startxfce4

(which I could have found out earlier from more careful reading of the documentation)

Last edited by stonecraft (2019-06-26 04:03:10)

jasonwryan · 2019-06-26 04:26:07

Xorg is obviously not a dependency of xfce (you could check that with pacman -Si or now you have installed it, -Qi). But then again the wiki steps are to install an X server and then once it is working install a WM or DE.

stonecraft · 2019-06-26 04:48:06

The xfce page does not mention the need to install xserver independently.
Arch Wiki page on xfce

Perhaps I am unclear on what makes something a dependency. How can xorg be required for xfce but not be a dependency? I thought xorg and xserver were inextricably linked. Is dependency strictly defined by that packages are listed as dependencies, regardless of functional dependency?

Last edited by stonecraft (2019-06-26 04:51:40)

jasonwryan · 2019-06-26 04:56:27

They are linked, but at some point you have to decide what dependencies to explicitly declare. Arch is not a distro for beginners. If you can't work out you need X before a DE, it is the wrong distro for you.

As I said, pacman will tell you this information.

stonecraft · 2019-06-26 06:33:12

Is the idea behind not explicitly declaring xserver as a dependency that someone might choose to use something else like Wayland? If so, then why have any xorg dependencies explicitly declared? I saw xorg related stuff in the dependencies and assumed that it was all getting pulled without actually checking for each one individually.
Sure Pacman can tell me what the listed dependencies are, but how do I know about dependencies that are considered too obvious to formally declare? I don't know what someone else considers obvious. I suppose I could compare a checklist against the listed dependencies. I would have thought that the more obvious dependencies would be more likely to be explicitly declared. I get that Arch isn't for novices, but this is the first time I have encountered an installation of xfce4 that did not also install everything needed to make it work. I thought that was the whole point of dependencies and package management.

seth · 2019-06-26 06:33:42

xfce4 will require libX11 and *some* X11 server, but
1. that does not have to be xorg-server (could reasonably be xwayland)
2. the x11 server by design doesn't have to run on the same machine - actually that used to be the intended default and idea behind the design… 30 years ago

Do 99.8% of all arch users installing xfce want to install xorg-server?
Yes.

Is it required to install it?
No.

Should your distro decide that for you?
Well, not *this* distro. Things are chosen by, not for you.

Bonus point: you learned sth. about the system on the road.

Trilby · 2019-06-26 12:42:33

If you followed the only supported means of installing arch linux, you would - at the end - have been directed to the "General Recommendations" page of the wiki which includes information about optionally chosing and installing Xorg or Wayland:
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Ge … _interface

And if you followed that, you would have installed and tested Xorg before you moved on to installing and configuring a DE.

Many experienced archers who know exactly what they are doing may skip some of these steps and just dive in with their final product choices. But two important points: 1 these users know what they are doing, and 2 if something goes wrong, even they would go back and walk through the basic recommended steps to find out what might have gone wrong before they posted here.

Again, this is an example on not following the best-practices advice and documentation of this community then expecting this community to help you pick up the pieces when things go wrong. I don't think you will continue to get much attention if you keep this habit up.

stonecraft · 2019-06-27 03:48:35

Well, I don't have a photographic memory and there is no way that I can have read every link in every bit of documentation and remember all the details. IMO, linear instructions should leave out key steps on the basis that they are documented elsewhere.
Also, I wasn't asking anyone to fix my problem. I'm glad you brought my attention to the partial upgrade thing, but it was a bit of a distraction from my question. I was asking if what happened was expected behavior, and someone could have just answered "yes, that is expected, X is not linked to desktop managers like in other distros". That way we would all have saved time.

jasonwryan · 2019-06-27 04:03:29

But then you would have remained ignorant about partial upgrades and using pacman to print dependencies...

Please remember to mark your thread as [Solved] by editing your first post and prepending it to the title.

stonecraft · 2019-06-27 04:20:45

Done.

pjlbyrne · 2023-08-13 07:03:17

Thanks stonecraft for asking this question. I had the same query.

seth · 2023-08-13 07:07:30

https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Genera … bumping%22
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Genera … mpty_posts

2ManyDogs · 2023-08-13 11:12:20

Closing this old solved thread. pjlbyrne, Please do not necrobump.

Arch Linux

#1 2019-06-25 23:20:56

Should pacman -Syy xfce4 xfce4-goodies pull in xorg et al? [Solved]

#2 2019-06-25 23:27:01

Re: Should pacman -Syy xfce4 xfce4-goodies pull in xorg et al? [Solved]

#3 2019-06-25 23:32:24

Re: Should pacman -Syy xfce4 xfce4-goodies pull in xorg et al? [Solved]

#4 2019-06-26 00:02:00

Re: Should pacman -Syy xfce4 xfce4-goodies pull in xorg et al? [Solved]

#5 2019-06-26 00:09:41

Re: Should pacman -Syy xfce4 xfce4-goodies pull in xorg et al? [Solved]

#6 2019-06-26 00:21:50

Re: Should pacman -Syy xfce4 xfce4-goodies pull in xorg et al? [Solved]

#7 2019-06-26 00:24:41

Re: Should pacman -Syy xfce4 xfce4-goodies pull in xorg et al? [Solved]

#8 2019-06-26 00:26:43

Re: Should pacman -Syy xfce4 xfce4-goodies pull in xorg et al? [Solved]

#9 2019-06-26 00:54:29

Re: Should pacman -Syy xfce4 xfce4-goodies pull in xorg et al? [Solved]

#10 2019-06-26 03:53:57

Re: Should pacman -Syy xfce4 xfce4-goodies pull in xorg et al? [Solved]

#11 2019-06-26 04:26:07

Re: Should pacman -Syy xfce4 xfce4-goodies pull in xorg et al? [Solved]

#12 2019-06-26 04:48:06

Re: Should pacman -Syy xfce4 xfce4-goodies pull in xorg et al? [Solved]

#13 2019-06-26 04:56:27

Re: Should pacman -Syy xfce4 xfce4-goodies pull in xorg et al? [Solved]

#14 2019-06-26 06:33:12

Re: Should pacman -Syy xfce4 xfce4-goodies pull in xorg et al? [Solved]

#15 2019-06-26 06:33:42

Re: Should pacman -Syy xfce4 xfce4-goodies pull in xorg et al? [Solved]

#16 2019-06-26 12:42:33

Re: Should pacman -Syy xfce4 xfce4-goodies pull in xorg et al? [Solved]

#17 2019-06-27 03:48:35

Re: Should pacman -Syy xfce4 xfce4-goodies pull in xorg et al? [Solved]

#18 2019-06-27 04:03:29

Re: Should pacman -Syy xfce4 xfce4-goodies pull in xorg et al? [Solved]

#19 2019-06-27 04:20:45

Re: Should pacman -Syy xfce4 xfce4-goodies pull in xorg et al? [Solved]

#20 2023-08-13 07:03:17

Re: Should pacman -Syy xfce4 xfce4-goodies pull in xorg et al? [Solved]

#21 2023-08-13 07:07:30

Re: Should pacman -Syy xfce4 xfce4-goodies pull in xorg et al? [Solved]

#22 2023-08-13 11:12:20

Re: Should pacman -Syy xfce4 xfce4-goodies pull in xorg et al? [Solved]

Board footer