Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

postlogic · 2006-08-24 19:45:36

http://www.nvidia.com/object/linux_disp … -8774.html

AIGLXAIGLXAIGLXAIGLXAIGLX! :-D :-D

stavrosg · 2006-08-24 20:37:44

8774 doesn't support aiglx, this will be in the 9xxx series in September

Gullible Jones · 2006-08-24 20:46:21

However, it does support Xorg 7.1, which means we can finally get that into Testing.

(I would be happier about 7.1's AIGLX if the Compiz people were paying any attention to it, as opposed to leaving Compiz a little short of broken with it.)

fk · 2006-08-24 20:51:40

yehaa

syamajala · 2006-08-24 21:21:48

its gonna be so sick when glucose and aiglx start working together

isez2001 · 2006-08-24 21:24:48

Gullible Jones wrote:

However, it does support Xorg 7.1, which means we can finally get that into Testing.

Can anybody say when said entry into Testing might take place?

I am, as we speak, installing Arch on my PC, and wouldn't might installing 7.1 off the bat, if it's available within, say, the next week.

karsten · 2006-08-24 23:44:59

sweetness

brain0 · 2006-08-25 09:20:05

Release Highlights:

* Added support for X.Org 7.1.
* Added support for XVideo with the Composite X extension
when using X.Org 7.1.
* Improved interaction with newer Linux kernels.

Now I want xorg 7.1 very badly. I love transparent XVideo (OpenGL already works).

brazzmonkey · 2006-08-25 09:28:39

syamajala wrote:

its gonna be so sick when glucose and aiglx start working together

what is glucose ?

sweiss · 2006-08-25 09:33:26

I'm still skeptic. It all sounds very nice, but so was the composite extension back then.

I'll believe it when I see it.

postlogic · 2006-08-25 12:38:23

brazzmonkey wrote:

syamajala wrote:
its gonna be so sick when glucose and aiglx start working together
what is glucose ?

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Introduc … 3116.shtml

In short, yay.

1c3d0g · 2006-08-25 17:52:43

/me <3 nvidia 8)

markzzzsmith · 2006-08-26 04:42:40

The whole and fundamental point of open source and therefore Linux is that vendors can't control what you do with your computer, or what software you choose to run. Guess what has just happened. Those of us who have gone out of our way to buy hardware that has open source support to avoid this lockin have now not been able to run the current version of X.org because our chosen distribution has decided to wait until proprietary, non-open source supporting vendors produce binary drivers.

In this instance, ATi and Nvidia have been given control of the Arch Linux release schedule for X.org 7.1. What if they didn't get around to providing compatible drivers for 12 months ? 18 months ? Never ? What happens when there is a critical security fix to X.org, however you can't move to it because you can't get drivers for it. What if there are new features, or bug fixes in the newer version that you'd benefit from, but you can't run it because you can't get a driver compatible with it ?

I like Arch Linux a lot, I recommend it to people, I post bug reports for problems I discover, and I've spent the time creating a few packages in AUR. I'm going to have to review my use of it if this sort of thing happens again.

If you think I'm a open source "zealot", and binary and proprietary device drivers are quite ok, then I'm afraid you just don't get what open source is actually about. Linux wouldn't be where it is today if it wasn't for a very large number of manufacturers opening their programming specifications. I know this to be a fact, I've been using it since 1992, many years before the first binary driver showed up. The only way we could run it in those days was to use hardware with open programming specifications. If you're now using Linux with proprietary drivers, you're now supporting the idea of closed hardware specifications, which would have prevented Linux's birth in the first place. Would you much rather have not had Linux available ? Encouraging vendors to close their specifications by accepting that decision and continuing to buy their hardware will cause that to be the eventual result.

pauldonnelly · 2006-08-26 06:41:18

Even a bleeding edge distro like Arch has to be careful about upgrades. We want to be up to date, but at the same time we don't want to worry that a "pacman -Syu" is going to hugely break our systems without warning. Anyone running an Nvidia card would have been awfully upset when their chosen distribution chose to break their previously flawless 3d acceleration. Given that it was reasonable to assume that Nvidia would produce a driver fairly soon (as indeed they have) I have no problem with the fact that the decision was made to delay the transition for a little while.

Surely if Nvidia had broken their tradition of above average Linux support the move to X.org 7.1 would have been made regardless. I don't think the plan was ever to wait "as long as it takes."

I like open source software a lot myself. If my every whim were to be satisfied, running a completely free-as-in-freedom system would near the top of my list. However, nothing ever gets done without compromise. A person has to give as they take. They give a driver, and we give by relaxing our principles a little. Is that wrong, or is that cooperation?

Stiff positions with no wiggle room don't solve problems or get you what you want. They start wars. Obviously a war over device drivers is what they call "unlikely", but the same mistrust, ill wishes, and lack of progress that wars entail are what you'll get. You've got to examine the trade-offs, and make a decision on a case-by-case basis. Sometimes you just can't work with the other guy. Much more often, you can.

The question is whether what Nvidia is doing is so awful and anti-freedom that we can't let it slide. You contend that it is, and if we use their system we'll be trapped in a hell of proprietary drivers and vendor-controlled computers. I contend that you're probably wrong.

It seems preferable to control your life completely. Do what you want, when you want. Sounds nice. In the real world we depend on others for nearly everything in our lives. There is nothing wrong with that. What is wrong is when the others we depend on attempt to force unfair terms on us. Nvidia isn't doing that. It's not unfair to keep their driver secrets to themselves. It's not the most generous thing to do, but none of us are as generous as we could be. Self-interest is par for the course in human affairs.

There is such a thing as "free enough" and it falls short of a completely open system. "Free enough" is different for everyone, but for me running a system which is entirely free software except for a few well-supported drivers is free enough to get by. Nvidia isn't stopping me from using my computer as I want. In fact, they're helping me to do it, by providing functional drivers that don't attempt to control me (as DRM software does, for example).

Would a fully free system be better? Possibly. I would like it better. More important though, is to say *why* it would be better. If the driver in question behaves like a "by us, for us" driver would, is available gratis, and comes with no odious restrictions, where is the problem? If they give us what we would make ourselves (or better), why complain? Because using free software gives us a warm, fuzzy feeling that proprietary software can't match. We like to feel "in control" of our computers even when that control would buy us nothing.

There are cases in which it's better not to be beholden to your vendors. Unsupported and poorly supported hardware is trouble. In that case, "open source or we won't buy" is completely appropriate. That company doesn't take care of its customers. Well-supported hardware? Not so much. Paranoia about running proprietary code rears its head. We're afraid of losing control over our systems, because we don't trust these evil proprietary corporations. After all, they're not with us, so they must be against us, right? Wrong. Nvidia isn't the enemy. They're a company that makes a product, and we are their customers. They've shown through their actions that they care about us enough to support us. That could change, but so could a lot of things. No one can be in your corner all the time. For the time being, Nvidia is.

In an interdependant world, ultimatums are nothing more than sand clogging up the machinery of society. There are freedoms that we should under no circumstances surrender, and there are those which we can trade, for our long term or short-term good. The freedom to control our computers? Let's hold on to that one. The freedom to modify every single piece of software on the computer? Maybe being able to modify nearly every single piece of it is enough, as long as we are free to add or remove the unmodifiable software as we wish.

Deciding where to draw the line is a hairy question. Unfortunately, dodging that question by adopting an absolutist philosophy isn't an option. One extreme leaves you with no control over your computer. The other sounds nice until you remember that most of the world does not want to operate like you do. If you won't work with others, then they won't work with you. Big companies don't come around to your way of thinking just because they like you.

I mention Nvidia a lot, because they're the topic of the day. Other situations are different, which is my entire point. One-size-fits-all answers are wrongs answers.

Each situation must be evaluated according to its own merits. Sometimes "good enough" is good enough. I'd say this is one of those times.

markzzzsmith wrote:

If you think I'm a open source "zealot", and binary and proprietary device drivers are quite ok, then I'm afraid you just don't get what open source is actually about. Linux wouldn't be where it is today if it wasn't for a very large number of manufacturers opening their programming specifications. I know this to be a fact, I've been using it since 1992, many years before the first binary driver showed up. The only way we could run it in those days was to use hardware with open programming specifications. If you're now using Linux with proprietary drivers, you're now supporting the idea of closed hardware specifications, which would have prevented Linux's birth in the first place. Would you much rather have not had Linux available ? Encouraging vendors to close their specifications by accepting that decision and continuing to buy their hardware will cause that to be the eventual result.

I think you're too uncompromising: that's what I think. I'm very glad that many manufacturers have made it possible to produce free software drivers, and that we have the Linux we have today.

I also think that your crystal ball is at least as foggy as mine. There's no way you can say for sure whether using proprietary drivers will ruin our free system or not. Perhaps favoring free drivers while reaching out to proprietary software companies will be more effective.

Linux might not have gotten of the ground without using only free software, but now is not then. Linux is well-established, as is free software. Perhaps now is the time to gain ground in another way (I sound like ESR here).

EDIT: This is way longer than I'd like it to be, but I've edited it as best I can right now.

Gullible Jones · 2006-08-26 13:18:46

Okay, where the fuck did these giant rants come from? :shock:

lumiwa · 2006-08-26 13:34:17

markzzzsmith wrote:

The whole and fundamental point of open source and therefore Linux is that vendors can't control what you do with your computer, or what software you choose to run. Guess what has just happened. Those of us who have gone out of our way to buy hardware that has open source support to avoid this lockin have now not been able to run the current version of X.org because our chosen distribution has decided to wait until proprietary, non-open source supporting vendors produce binary drivers.
In this instance, ATi and Nvidia have been given control of the Arch Linux release schedule for X.org 7.1. What if they didn't get around to providing compatible drivers for 12 months ? 18 months ? Never ? What happens when there is a critical security fix to X.org, however you can't move to it because you can't get drivers for it. What if there are new features, or bug fixes in the newer version that you'd benefit from, but you can't run it because you can't get a driver compatible with it ?
.

I can sign under what you wrote...

I have ATI Radeon 9000 and I use mesa drivers ( I had ATI drivers maybe a two weeks) and I use Blender, The Gimp and some program for genetics and I don't have a problem.
IMO problem is more for users who use Windows programs and games. Maybe I am wrong?

deficite · 2006-08-26 14:38:35

The whole and fundamental point of open source and therefore Linux is that vendors can't control what you do with your computer, or what software you choose to run. Guess what has just happened. Those of us who have gone out of our way to buy hardware that has open source support to avoid this lockin have now not been able to run the current version of X.org because our chosen distribution has decided to wait until proprietary, non-open source supporting vendors produce binary drivers.

Take off your tin foil hat. Let's substitue "nVidia driver" with "OSS UBER-RMS-APPROVED VIDEO DRIVER DELUXE". If a majority of Arch's users use that and it's incompatible with Xorg 7.1, would you still be saying "The man is controlling our distro, OMFG!"? Probably not, because it's OSS and it's automagically the best thing to use and not subject to the same treatment as commercial software. No, in the OSS driver case you'd probably just have flame wars on the video driver's mailing list and xorg's mailing list saying "Why did xorg decide to break compatibility?" or "Why did that video driver decide to break compatibility" and eventually somebody would sneak in with a SVN patch that would make the OSS driver work and people would still be flaming each other about the design of the "upcoming" patch that had already been submitted without them knowing it (since they're so busy writing flame e-mails. Flamewars are very important to these guys.)

Gullible Jones · 2006-08-26 14:47:40

markzzzsmith wrote:

The whole and fundamental point of open source and therefore Linux is that vendors can't control what you do with your computer, or what software you choose to run. Guess what has just happened. Those of us who have gone out of our way to buy hardware that has open source support to avoid this lockin have now not been able to run the current version of X.org because our chosen distribution has decided to wait until proprietary, non-open source supporting vendors produce binary drivers.

Please, don't give me that on an OS where you can easily compile up the new version and drivers in 10 minutes. Using PKGBUILDs is not as convenient as using pacman, but it is not hard.

In this instance, ATi and Nvidia have been given control of the Arch Linux release schedule for X.org 7.1. What if they didn't get around to providing compatible drivers for 12 months ? 18 months ? Never ? What happens when there is a critical security fix to X.org, however you can't move to it because you can't get drivers for it.

The fix gets backported. This has already happened - the devs ported a security update from 7.1 to 7.0. Trust me, they take security very seriously.

What if there are new features, or bug fixes in the newer version that you'd benefit from, but you can't run it because you can't get a driver compatible with it ?

Bugfixes can be backported. New features you'll just have to wait for... Or compile it yourself using ABS.

I like Arch Linux a lot, I recommend it to people, I post bug reports for problems I discover, and I've spent the time creating a few packages in AUR. I'm going to have to review my use of it if this sort of thing happens again.

Please do... or learn how to file bug reports and use ABS.

ralvez · 2006-08-26 16:36:42

I think we need to "slow down" and look at things with an eye devoided of ideology. On these matters ideological passion and good thinking tend to cancel each other out.
It seems to stand to good reason that industry (read manufacturers) involvement will only improve Linux acceptance (as it did in the past for Windows) and that happens when you have good hardware/software support.

If the past serves us as a guide, should a manufacturer "quit on the community" the "old Unix way" will resurface and the community takes over the task of making it work ... this is the way we have had things for the most part so far ... my conclusion is: let them contribute, if they do not stand to the mark then things will naturally go back to the way they were.

Where I'm from they have a saying:
If your problem has a solution, why make a problem out of the situation ... and if it does not why worry about what you cannot fix?

I think they got that right. If hardware manufacturers help we'll take it and if they do not we'll move on without them.

iBertus · 2006-08-26 17:21:56

This all just a repeat of another flame-bait thread that seems to popup everytime a new Xorg is released.

We have all had this discussion before. If you can live without good 3D acceleration you can use the F/OSS drivers. Otherwise, you have to use the nvidia drivers. We all agree this is bad, nobody is arguing that it's not. It's just a fact of life that nvidia couldn't open source their drivers if they wanted to (way too much licensed code) and our little protest isn't going to change anything EVER.

I have to have good 3D acceleration for my work. I don't really play many games, but I do build lots of 3D geologic models and such, which require 3D acceleration. I got an nvidia card because their linux support is at least 10x better than ATi and because no card currently has free drivers that work half-assed with enough performance to make this work efficient.

detto · 2006-08-26 17:53:16

full ack ravelz
u mind i quote this thingy "If your problem has a solution, why make a problem out of the situation ... and if it does not why worry about what you cannot fix?" to my signature? this is just sooo damn true!

cheers,
detto

fk · 2006-08-26 18:35:28

guys, what is this for a flaming here?

I have a bigger Problem, my video card is not supportet in xorg 7.0, and you make a discussion abount 3D support or not :evil:

detto · 2006-08-26 19:07:49

fk wrote:

guys, what is this for a flaming here?

flaming?! :shock: ur the one who does now, sry :?

I have a bigger Problem, my video card is not supportet in xorg 7.0

maybe u should post ur problem then :?:

and you make a discussion abount 3D support or not :evil:

actually this is offtopic, but i found that pretty intersting imo
chillout &
cheers,
detto

fk · 2006-08-26 19:21:04

maybe u should post ur problem then Question Very Happy

I have a Intel GMA945 Video Card

I neet the i810 driver version >= 1.6

Xorg 7.0 only support i810 driver version 1.5

yes I need xorg 7.1

Don't say "use vesa" the vesa driver is like the hell

detto · 2006-08-26 19:26:25

theres a thread already here http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php? … sc&start=0 also provides a PKGBUILD for xorg 7.1 from basilburn. if u get problems with mesa downloading try changing the source and md5sums lines in the PKGBUILD files.

cheers
detto

Arch Linux

#1 2006-08-24 19:45:36

Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#2 2006-08-24 20:37:44

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#3 2006-08-24 20:46:21

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#4 2006-08-24 20:51:40

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#5 2006-08-24 21:21:48

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#6 2006-08-24 21:24:48

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#7 2006-08-24 23:44:59

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#8 2006-08-25 09:20:05

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#9 2006-08-25 09:28:39

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#10 2006-08-25 09:33:26

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#11 2006-08-25 12:38:23

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#12 2006-08-25 17:52:43

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#13 2006-08-26 04:42:40

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#14 2006-08-26 06:41:18

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#15 2006-08-26 13:18:46

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#16 2006-08-26 13:34:17

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#17 2006-08-26 14:38:35

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#18 2006-08-26 14:47:40

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#19 2006-08-26 16:36:42

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#20 2006-08-26 17:21:56

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#21 2006-08-26 17:53:16

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#22 2006-08-26 18:35:28

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#23 2006-08-26 19:07:49

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#24 2006-08-26 19:21:04

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

#25 2006-08-26 19:26:25

Re: Nvidia with support for xorg 7.1 is out!

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