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#1 2006-09-13 21:03:00

Neuro
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 2005-10-12
Posts: 352

Virtualization (Xen, VMware)

First of all, I've never tried any type of virtualization before.  I've been reading quite a bit about it (mainly about Xen) and would like to ask you guys a few questions. Mainly I'd like to use it to test other OS' like OpenSolaris for instance without the need to partition the hard drive.

1. Xen.. Yea it seems nice for a major setup (like running multiple servers on one), but doesn't seem fit for just testing and/or trying out other OS'. I do have a Yonah processor, so I could theoretically run any OS without it being specially patched for Xen.

2. Qemu, I don't know much about it. Just heard the name.

3. Vmware. Now, this is rather confusing. Whats the difference between Player and Workstation. AFAIU Player is free but can only run special packages and Workstation is a commercial product which you can either buy or trial (for how long)?

As it seems, Vmware would be best for me, but I don't really know which one I'd want, and which side of it to grab first. Are there any _good_ PKGBUILDs for either of these two? Suggestions welcome.

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#2 2006-09-13 21:12:32

kishd
Member
Registered: 2006-06-14
Posts: 399

Re: Virtualization (Xen, VMware)

There is pkgbuild in AUR for Vmware

http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?d … s=0&SeB=nd


---for there is nothing either good or bad, but only thinking makes it so....
Hamlet, W Shakespeare

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#3 2006-09-13 21:27:00

Neuro
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 2005-10-12
Posts: 352

Re: Virtualization (Xen, VMware)

kishd wrote:

Yes I've seen that. Is it reliable? Is it only a 30day trial period? Can I safely remove the package and then remakepkg it? I'm a total n00b in this dept. so please provide me with some precious information  wink

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#4 2006-09-13 21:43:04

Echo
Member
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 2006-05-16
Posts: 239

Re: Virtualization (Xen, VMware)

I installed vmware-server a week or two ago and it worked fine. Vmware-Server was easy to install. I use it to run Windows > Quicken Premium software. I could not get Quicken Premium to run under wine, but, I had Vmware-Server installed in just a few minutes.

The only thing "extra" I had to do is register vmware-server to get a license number to run it (for free).

http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?d … s=0&SeB=nd

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#5 2006-09-13 21:59:30

tomk
Forum Fellow
From: Ireland
Registered: 2004-07-21
Posts: 9,835

Re: Virtualization (Xen, VMware)

I'm relatively new to this stuff myself, but here's what I've done so far, in case it's of use to you.

A while ago, I used to use qemu, because I needed Windoze to access a Windoze-only web site. It worked fine for what I needed, but it was a bit slow.

I'm now using VMware for another Windoze-only app, but this one needs to access the USB ports, which qemu can't do yet. I'm actually using VMware Server, which is free, like Player, and allows you to create your own images, like Workstation, and has no trial periods or other such conditions. Someone's going to come along and say "But you can create images with Player too", and AFAIK that's true, but not officially. VMware's performance is a lot better than qemu, and again does the job for the one thing I use it for.

There's a vmware-server PKGBUILD in the AUR here. See how it works out for you.

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#6 2006-09-14 08:52:45

Mefju
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 2006-07-12
Posts: 104

Re: Virtualization (Xen, VMware)

I'm using qemu with kernel module kqemu. It seems working fast and stable with FreeBSD on it. Qemu is available by pacman from community repo, kqemu is in AUR.

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#7 2006-09-14 09:02:33

Neuro
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 2005-10-12
Posts: 352

Re: Virtualization (Xen, VMware)

tomk wrote:

I'm now using VMware for another Windoze-only app, but this one needs to access the USB ports, which qemu can't do yet. I'm actually using VMware Server, which is free, like Player, and allows you to create your own images, like Workstation, and has no trial periods or other such conditions. Someone's going to come along and say "But you can create images with Player too", and AFAIK that's true, but not officially. VMware's performance is a lot better than qemu, and again does the job for the one thing I use it for.

Thanks for the tips. However, I still don't grab the whole vmware product line thingy. You say that VMware Server (which is free) works just like a VMware Workstation (which is commercial or trial)... What are the drawbacks? Does VMware Server miss  some features? And if so, will I, as someone who just wants to test other OS',  miss any of them?

Mefju wrote:

I'm using qemu with kernel module kqemu. It seems working fast and stable with FreeBSD on it. Qemu is available by pacman from community repo, kqemu is in AUR.

Cool. How fast is it? What are the benefits/drawbacks of qemu compared to VMware and Xen? Have you tried any of the other two?

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#8 2006-09-14 09:14:10

brazzmonkey
Member
From: between keyboard and chair
Registered: 2006-03-16
Posts: 818
Website

Re: Virtualization (Xen, VMware)

qemu is slow, kqemu never worked on my machine.
vmware player is no use since vmware server is free and much more featured and fast (near-native with vmware tools). vmware is more convenient for desktop use but is around $ 200.

vmware server is probably your best bet.

it looks like no one knows about xen in here...


what goes up must come down

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#9 2006-09-14 10:16:32

iphitus
Forum Fellow
From: Melbourne, Australia
Registered: 2004-10-09
Posts: 4,927

Re: Virtualization (Xen, VMware)

i use vmware-server, it works great.

i tried to find the differences between it and workstation, and found only a handful. workstation can take multiple snapshots of a running system, whereas vmware server can only take the one when suspending it. I'm sure workstation has more advanced features, and emulates more hardware, but server should cover the task for you.

James

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#10 2006-09-14 10:17:34

tomk
Forum Fellow
From: Ireland
Registered: 2004-07-21
Posts: 9,835

Re: Virtualization (Xen, VMware)

There are no drawbacks to VMware Server, and no missing features, AFAIK. If I knew why Server is free and Workstation isn't, I'd probably be working for VMware, but as I'm not, I'll simply say that it doesn't make any sense to me either. Just use it and enjoy. big_smile

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#11 2006-09-14 11:12:56

Neuro
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 2005-10-12
Posts: 352

Re: Virtualization (Xen, VMware)

Cool. I just installed VMserver and it works well. Installed a WinXP SP2 on it without any problems. It's just so easy to use.

However, I have problems configuring it to use NAT. It uses bridged connections just fine (both on my cable and wifi interfaces), but the guest OS has problems retrieving dhcp data when NAT is configured. Any suggestions.

brazzmonkey wrote:

it looks like no one knows about xen in here...

It sounds like a quote from an RPG game.. like.. World of Archcraft or something wink

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#12 2006-09-14 14:29:24

Romashka
Forum Fellow
Registered: 2005-12-07
Posts: 1,054

Re: Virtualization (Xen, VMware)

Neuro wrote:
kishd wrote:

There is pkgbuild in AUR for Vmware

http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?d … s=0&SeB=nd

Yes I've seen that. Is it reliable? Is it only a 30day trial period? Can I safely remove the package and then remakepkg it? I'm a total n00b in this dept. so please provide me with some precious information  wink

You can make virtual machine with trial vmware-workstation and then run it with free vmware-player. Or you can just use vmware-server as others suggested.


to live is to die

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#13 2006-09-14 15:15:54

Lone_Wolf
Member
From: Netherlands, Europe
Registered: 2005-10-04
Posts: 4,028

Re: Virtualization (Xen, VMware)

VMware server is a client / server app , while vmware workstation is standalone.

Server is more useful for production environments , ws is better for testing/development.

Until recently Server was commercially available as GSX.


Booting with apg Openrc, NOT systemd.
Automounting : not needed, i prefer pmount
Aur helpers : makepkg + my own local repo === rarely need them

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#14 2006-09-14 16:41:36

Romashka
Forum Fellow
Registered: 2005-12-07
Posts: 1,054

Re: Virtualization (Xen, VMware)

Neuro wrote:

However, I still don't grab the whole vmware product line thingy. You say that VMware Server (which is free) works just like a VMware Workstation (which is commercial or trial)... What are the drawbacks? Does VMware Server miss  some features?

AFAIK VMware Server does not support Teams and some other features.
Server is designed for production environments, Workstation is more suitable for experimenting with new OS or virtual network experiments.
I'd suggest to use trial vmware-workstation for creating machines and changing their hardware config, and vmware-player for running them. Note that teams and multiple snapshots features are not available in Player, only in Workstation.


to live is to die

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#15 2006-09-20 00:29:16

anykey
Member
From: Trier, Germany
Registered: 2004-06-12
Posts: 79

Re: Virtualization (Xen, VMware)

I use Gentoo with xen-kernel on a server.

It all revolves around a "Domain 0" (also called Hypervisor) OS to act as a host to the virtual machines (for this, I use Gentoo). This OS also has to provide support for all hardware to be used by the guest OSes ("Domain U"). You need a Xen-compatible Kernel in each Guest OS (I have Linux on all of them) to interact with the Hypervisor hardware facilities. Basically, each OS gets its own /dev tree; I use this mainly to have the LAMPs inside the guest OSes have seperate environments (they also get their own IP).

Of course you can use Arch too -- all you need to adapt is the kernel and compile some tools (I think I will try that next). Our former admin just happened to use Gentoo.

Mainly, Xen is used around here to wrap three Apache systems into one physical machine; it works, as far as I can tell, pretty stable.

if you need to enforce control over the guest OSes, they can be controlled via the "xm" interface program from within the hypervisor or directly via ssh login. I don't know if other kernels are Xen-compatible; I figure *BSD might.

Edit: some details about xm:

xm list

gets you all guest OSes, and a brief overview about their state.

xm start $VM

will start a guest OS named $VM. A complete boot process of that OS will follow; it will become available shortly.

xm shutdown $VM

will shutdown a system graciously, as if you'd login and shutdown it yourself.

xm destroy $VM

will crash a guest OS (destroying it immediately).

For more details about this, there is good documentation on www.xen.org; I don't know how one can use, for instance, X Servers on guest OSes and the like.

So, if you decide to try Xen, I can recommend it for say, virtual hosting (which is what we do). YMMV.

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#16 2006-09-20 01:24:05

cactus
Taco Eater
From: t͈̫̹ͨa͖͕͎̱͈ͨ͆ć̥̖̝o̫̫̼s͈̭̱̞͍̃!̰
Registered: 2004-05-25
Posts: 4,615
Website

Re: Virtualization (Xen, VMware)

Xen is great, but the virtual networking setup really sucks.
It is a pain in the butt to create anything other than simple bridged guest VM's.


"Be conservative in what you send; be liberal in what you accept." -- Postel's Law
"tacos" -- Cactus' Law
"t̥͍͎̪̪͗a̴̻̩͈͚ͨc̠o̩̙͈ͫͅs͙͎̙͊ ͔͇̫̜t͎̳̀a̜̞̗ͩc̗͍͚o̲̯̿s̖̣̤̙͌ ̖̜̈ț̰̫͓ạ̪͖̳c̲͎͕̰̯̃̈o͉ͅs̪ͪ ̜̻̖̜͕" -- -̖͚̫̙̓-̺̠͇ͤ̃ ̜̪̜ͯZ͔̗̭̞ͪA̝͈̙͖̩L͉̠̺͓G̙̞̦͖O̳̗͍

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#17 2006-09-20 06:04:11

fk
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 2006-04-29
Posts: 524

Re: Virtualization (Xen, VMware)

But Xen have had Problems with ACPI (I have read about tis, is this true?),and so I can not use this on my laptop


Have you tried to turn it off and on again?

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#18 2006-09-20 08:17:25

FUBAR
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2004-12-08
Posts: 1,029
Website

Re: Virtualization (Xen, VMware)

Noob question: is it possible to use Xen (or any other virtualization program) to create chroots or jails? I was wondering because I have a computer acting as my general purpose server and I'd like to create seperate "jails" for every risky service it runs (HTTPd, FTPd, p2p client, ...) sharing the same filesystem. I'd like to create an extra layer of security: if one service is exploited, it doesn't have to mean the entire system is compromised.

I read Solaris' Zones can do this, and I was looking for a Linux-way to do it. Or have I maybe completely missed the point?


A bus station is where a bus stops.
A train station is where a train stops.
On my desk I have a workstation.

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#19 2006-09-20 16:36:32

JGC
Developer
Registered: 2003-12-03
Posts: 1,659

Re: Virtualization (Xen, VMware)

Xen just allows you to share hardware with other running machines. You can feed it CPU and memory to run on, while you can give it physical devices or filesystem images it can use as emulated partitions.

Xen performs really well and is quite simple to setup. The easiest way is bridged networking, but NAT is also possible. The only problem I had with bridged networking was the shitty MAC address changing all the time, but that was fixed easily by configuration. The documentation isn't always helpful on this though.

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