Need for step-by-step arch guides?

timm · 2006-11-15 20:27:51

One thing I'd like to see is some documentation on how to do things in arch that you do differently in other distros. It's been awhile, but I have run across descriptions of how to install things or build things that were designed for debian or others, but the directories and files they describe are not the same in arch. (The others all seem so complicated ) This would require somebody with some cross-distro knowledge.

I learn best by having some guidance (and examples) and then tinkering with it, rather than having to try to decode everything.

spookshow · 2006-11-16 13:46:06

step by step guides are great as long as people learn what they are doing as they do it. All the step by steps i have followed are covered in notes, hilighting, alternate links (i print them all up and just demolish them with notes)
its a good base to start on, but people need to realise it is a base they are working with, not an actual "this will make your system work" thing.
in the past 3 months, while searching for a distro, i have used fedora, ubuntu, vector, vlos, gentoo, suse, and a few others, and honestly, arch was the last i tried, and i had learned enough from those to just breeze through the install, given, there are things in arch that aren't installed that have haunted me (see my usb key problems) but again, easily solved by the wonderful people of the community.

its to early, i should be in bed.

xterminus · 2006-11-16 15:08:42

chrismortimore wrote:

I think that beginner-orientated step by step guides are bad. In my experience, people just blindly follow them and don't think about what they are doing, so don't learn.

I'm not so sure about that. I know quite a few people who are "new" to linux, but started with Gentoo (before it had an "installer"). The setup documents for Gentoo were (are?) top notch - and they ended up learning a LOT just by going through the motions.

Besides, it's nice to have good documentation.

At the very least, we can 'borrow' good newbie docs from other distros. EG: It would not hurt to grab documents which were produced under the GFDL, CC, (or whatever license you agree to) and slap em onto our wiki with a few arch revisions.

iphitus · 2006-11-17 12:24:03

Time Code: We use the same booting technology on our CD's as most other distros afaik. The fact that your bios refuses to acknowledge the CD as bootable implies an error either in your bios, hardware or on your behalf. It could be the way that you are burning it -- are you burning the disc image? or the image file as a file to the disc?

Arch's not the greatest distro for a 'raw newcomer' so I do wish you luck!

you generally dont uninstall operating systems. You either wipe the drive totally clean -- for which the procedure is the same for any operating system, or you install another one over it, which comes under the installation instructions for a operating system.

as for step by step guides.... I know of no plan to create any, but there's no reason to stop anyone there in the community from writing one.......... so why are you wasting time in this irrelevant thread instead of writing one?

James.

Nnyan · 2006-11-20 23:40:17

Time to Code,

Well said. While I'm too new hear to seperate people into camps your observations are generally valid in many OSS projects. As a ham radio op (KG6PES) you also see these same camps. Those that want to keep it a tight club and those that don't. I've spent a great deal of my time trying to bring in more hams into the fold. For most people the morse code req's for most of the classes are a big turn off. Which is why we run free MC classes (which run on old laptops running linux and KochBZX). If it wasn't for linux we would never be able to provide these classes or show off ham software at hamfests.

You would also never quess how many people ask us "what version of windows are you running on those???". They are surprised to learn its Linux. We've had more then one convert who had an old laptop/pc lying around which they were going to trash and is now doing something useful. If I hadn't had run into some Linux communities that were helpful to noobs I may never had caught the Linux bug.

xterminus · 2006-11-21 07:56:14

Time Code wrote:

Hi James,
As far as I can tell, the people who are against a guide see themselves as members of a priesthood that requires initiation for entry. I can see why a teenager would adopt this view. After all, teenagers like to demonstrate that they can do something on their own, and if they can impress their friends and their parents in the process, it is all to the good. On the other hand, I would expect that an adult, with perhaps a greater sense of security and accomplishment, would be interested in simplifying things for others. I should perhaps add, before someone jumps on these characterizations, that the last two sentences pick up on specific posts in this thread, one from a (presumably) young woman or man who points out that her or his Dad is very impressed with the fact that she or he figured out how to run Arch, the other from a teacher. Being over 23 (which has always struck me as the age when kids and adults go their separate ways), I'm with the teacher. I don't know a whole lot about computers, but in my own areas of expertise, whether it is my profession or the one sport that I am good at, I do try to save others the time of reinventing the wheel.

http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/ArchLinux wrote:

Arch Linux is an independent i686-optimized community distribution for intermediate and advanced Linux users.

GNU/Linux is hard to learn. And learning anything is painful, often difficult process. The process of learning to use GNU/Linux is one of multiple small epiphanies. Typically you are just on the verge of inventing some necessary tool or utility when you realize that someone else has already invented it, and built it in, and this explains some odd file or directory or command that you have noticed but never really understood before.

There are plenty of user-friendly GNU/Linux distributions out there that cater towards new users. Their primary goal to provide ease-of use and allow the greater public to experience Free Software for the first time.

If you read through the Wiki, ArchLinux's goal has never been to provide these tools. I'll quote/chop/paraphrase some more from the Wiki.

http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/The_Arch_Way wrote:

* Not designed to be a newbie distro it is intended for a more experienced user.
* The aim is to develop Arch into a perfect base. A base doesn't include fancy tools and auto configure, but with manual configure tools and few functions for the users to be able to do further development on their own.
* The core development of Arch Linux will not be providing any "newbie-friendly" GUIs/utilities at any time in the near future.
* In Arch "simple" is different what other distros are considering. The learning is more important than getting something easily done.
* If you try to hide the complexity of the system, you'll end up with more complex system. Instead try to make the system more simple and logical from the inside.

As you can see, the principles driving the development of ArchLinux are not necessarily to provide a new user with a comfortable environment, but the experienced user with one. I would suggest that ArchLinux promotes the development of an infrastructure that is engineered to be lean, efficient, and fast - often at the expense of ease of use.

And a final thought.

If you would really like to see these kinds of guides appear on the wiki - start one! It does not need to be complete the first draft. It's enough to outline the steps you went through in order to get things running and slowly add to it as you have time. If others find the material invaluable, the documentation will evolve via peer review into the guides you would like to see.

Gastrognome · 2006-11-21 21:12:19

dedhart wrote:

Well, I think better documentation is definetly needed if we ever want to attract new users, while Arch may be simple compared to say gentoo I could install gentoo with minimal linux experience just goin off thier excellent handbook. If it werent for my experience w/ gentoo I'm sure my switch to Arch would have been impossible. Someone switching from Suse or Ubuntu would be lost from the get go. Arch is an amazing distro, but without a thorough install guide with references and documentation all compiled in one easy to get to place, the new user will be well baffled before ever completing an install. just my 2 cents.

I switched to arch from (x)ubuntu. It isn't that difficult.
Granted, I trashed my hard drive (twice, losing everything -> now I know how to better plan partitions) and failed to boot several times (at different periods of switching to and from ubuntu) but when I finally got it going ( following the wiki and crawling through these forums/google) I was quite proud of myself, and feel much more knowledgeable than I did before.

My point is that as long as pertinant and current info is in the wiki (and ongoing problems are reported here in the forums), I don't see why anyone, even complete newbs, should have much trouble.

Gastro

Nnyan · 2006-11-21 23:27:36

SSB license eh? Haven't run into many of those! I was very fortunate in that I found a cranky old ham to take me under his wings. Steered me towards some quality used gear and got me up to speed in morse. Take a look at some of the MC training software out there, I found a few hours a week for a month or so before you take a test to be ideal.

dolby · 2006-11-23 05:19:12

Gastrognome wrote:

dedhart wrote:
Well, I think better documentation is definetly needed if we ever want to attract new users, while Arch may be simple compared to say gentoo I could install gentoo with minimal linux experience just goin off thier excellent handbook. If it werent for my experience w/ gentoo I'm sure my switch to Arch would have been impossible. Someone switching from Suse or Ubuntu would be lost from the get go. Arch is an amazing distro, but without a thorough install guide with references and documentation all compiled in one easy to get to place, the new user will be well baffled before ever completing an install. just my 2 cents.
I switched to arch from (x)ubuntu. It isn't that difficult.
Granted, I trashed my hard drive (twice, losing everything -> now I know how to better plan partitions) and failed to boot several times (at different periods of switching to and from ubuntu) but when I finally got it going ( following the wiki and crawling through these forums/google) I was quite proud of myself, and feel much more knowledgeable than I did before.
My point is that as long as pertinant and current info is in the wiki (and ongoing problems are reported here in the forums), I don't see why anyone, even complete newbs, should have much trouble.
Gastro

i agree 100% with this post. myself have come from xubuntu too, after using fedora core 3,4, & 5 as a dual boot with windows for a bit more than a year. came to arch being a almost a total noob cause during the time i actually used linux, which was from the beggining of summer 2006 when i completely got rid of windows, and because of the fact that i always followed guides to solve the (not many) problems i encountered during that time , i realised that if i had a gui for everything i wanted to do i would never touch CLI . thats the reason i switched to arch. that only came through bacuase i had the time to get involved and read the apropriate documentation to understand how to setup & use my system. using arch for ~4 months now and within a couple of days had already taught me more than xubuntu had taught me as the only os in 2 months.
also

Q) I am a complete Linux beginner. Should I use Arch?
A) This question has had much debate. Arch is targeted at more advanced Linux users, but some people feel "Arch is a good place to start". If you are a beginner and want to use Arch, just be warned that you MUST be willing to learn. Before asking any question, do your own independent research by googling, searching the Wiki, and searching the forum (and reading past FAQs). If you do that, you should be fine.

if u dont have time and will to read dcumentation u wont make it in the long run. its as simple as that

Arch Linux

#26 2006-11-15 20:27:51

Re: Need for step-by-step arch guides?

#27 2006-11-16 13:46:06

Re: Need for step-by-step arch guides?

#28 2006-11-16 15:08:42

Re: Need for step-by-step arch guides?

#29 2006-11-17 12:24:03

Re: Need for step-by-step arch guides?

#30 2006-11-20 23:40:17

Re: Need for step-by-step arch guides?

#31 2006-11-21 07:56:14

Re: Need for step-by-step arch guides?

#32 2006-11-21 21:12:19

Re: Need for step-by-step arch guides?

#33 2006-11-21 23:27:36

Re: Need for step-by-step arch guides?

#34 2006-11-23 05:19:12

Re: Need for step-by-step arch guides?

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