0.8 alpha/beta and final Voodoo installation feedback

scarecrow · 2006-12-23 22:14:28

ravycavy wrote:

So my cd/dvd drive isn't listed. I think it has to do with the :evil: jmicron ide controller op my p965 motherboard (msi p965 platinum).

Not really. It works great here, again with a Jmicron/Intel i965 mobo, albeit a different one (Asus P5B-VM).
Did you consider upgrading the BIOS- or trying to boot with

linux irqpoll

instead?

I do have some issues with the onboard ethernet controller (Realtek 8168) and hal running, but that should be related to the 2.6.19 kernel novelties (or probably just dbus/hal) and not the Arch installation medium.

judfilm · 2006-12-23 23:25:13

Would it be possible to add the option "-O dir_index" for ext3 creation in the setup?

detto · 2006-12-23 23:44:15

judfilm wrote:

Would it be possible to add the option "-O dir_index" for ext3 creation in the setup?

Yay, that would be awesome!

brain0 · 2006-12-24 01:18:46

detto wrote:

Can we expect a final 0.8 iso soon (like in some days?) , or should i install straight on from 0.8 alpha-iso?
Are any (big) changes planend for beta or rc or final iso?

http://bugs.archlinux.org/task/6031

These need to be fixed first, maybe more.

IceRAM · 2006-12-24 01:42:40

Ante scriptum: long post ahead (sorry for the impatient)

redge wrote:

First, that the on-screen recommendation to append "earlymodules=piix" works. It doesn't, as I discovered after wasting a lot of time trying it in various permutations, before coming across a post in this thread to the effect that it should no longer be in the documentation.
Secondly, that if you install arch ide-legacy, it will actually fix the problem. Because it won't. On a default boot, you will get a kernel panic, and on a fallback boot, you will get a 5 second or so hang at udev.
Instead, ignore the statement in the installation screen for Initramfs Config that says "Most of you will not need to change anything in this file." Go into the file anyway, where you will find, at the very end, on what is supposed to be an "ide-legacy" install, that HOOKS="base udev autodetect pata scsi sata filesystems". Replace pata with, guess what, ide.
The result is a clean boot, with no hesitation, both from default and fallback.

First of all, I rarely reply to posts lately due to my limited time... but now I feel like posting a reply.

The way you are describing the problem makes me think you are unaware of all/a-combination of the following:
* how BIG the ide/pata change is,
* how complicated the boot-process is/how the kernel loads
* how many changes need to be done in order to accommodate the above
* how the rolling release system works
The unawareness is understandable if you were using a distribution backed by a company, with a fixed release schedule, where everything is tested for months and kernels don't change that often, thus being patched heavily.

It's not about being "bleeding edge"... it's about having a rolling release system (= the release is actually a snapshot of the current repository). This introduces a lot more complications that you might think of. A change in something might break don't know what in other place. The breakage can't always be detected by the packager on the first runs. What I feel you don't understand is that this is something acceptable given the rolling release system for ArchLinux, but not for other distributions.

Problems for [current]/[extra] packages are fixed quite fast if they are ArchLinux-specific and if they are reported. For other packages, like the packages in [unstable], you should know that you are taking a risk when using them. Same goes for alpha/beta releases... in this case the beta release of the install CD. These last problems are usually fixed slower.

Also, it is not correct to say "[...] when the installation CD gives questionable performance on an IBM Pentium III computer". ArchLinux does not provide guaranteed performance for the updates/releases (actually, "updates"=="releases", due to the rolling release system). It does not say anywhere "Long Time Support" (as Ubuntu for example). As I've said above, using the latest versions might introduce some temporal incompatibilities due to the rolling release system which is being used.

redge wrote:

Instead, ignore the statement in the installation screen for Initramfs Config that says "Most of you will not need to change anything in this file."

Well, from the context, it looks to me like you're thinking something like "OMG, now I have to go against the rules - why the heck did they make this rule if I'm going against it". This goes hand in hand with the "Pentium III" comment above. It looks to me that you are thinking that your system should be used as reference by everybody when using ArchLinux. Sorry to bring you bad news, but this is not true. If your controller is not supported by the new kernel subsystem properly, you do not belong in the "most of you" part. If the kernel developers stop supporting your controller in kernel 2.8.10 for whatever reason and applications require 2.8.10, ArchLinux will no loger work for you... see... rolling release - same thing happened with kernel 2.4.

Overall, you might consider it a major problem. For me, an ArchLinux user for more than 2.5 years, it's just another problem which will be solved in a week maximum (or when the kernel devels fix it, if that's the only way to be fixed - but I don't think that's the only solution).

The best things to do when such a problem appears are to:
* report the problem on the forums/FlySpray
* offer assistance in detecting/correcting it.
I've seen you did this. That's great. Future ArchLinux users will benefit from the knowledge. Developers will be able to fix this faster.

To put is short: ArchLinux is targeted towards another type of users, different from the users of the major distributions - ArchLinux users understand how everything moves around and what to do in the case problems appear.

P.S. it is recommended that you don't edit your post after somebody replied in a topic, or after a long time. It is practically impossible for me to know right now what was before and what changed after your edit.

ralvez · 2006-12-24 01:47:19

redge,

I think you have made some very good points in your posts and personally I do not "sense" any disrespect on them.
I'm a web developer and am used to receive criticism and feedback from users and clients and my impression is that 'as a user' your points are valid.
If the software does not perform the basic install, then it is a fact that something is not working well.

In my opinion, the developers have done an outstanding job with Arch and I'm sure that the extra work you did in order to troubleshoot the problem and find a viable solution/explanation is very much appreciated from their end.

Having said all that I would also add that I have done a good number of installations using 0.71 and 0.72 releases without problems and I wonder if part of the problem may be related to the particular laptop model in use ... and trust me this is not an excuse, in my experience laptops seem to be a pest even for Windows

At any rate, I just wanted to say thank you for your efforts and contribution and the same goes to the devs and board members.

R.

redge · 2006-12-24 02:23:45

Hi Ralvez,

I'm sufficiently curious about this to spend a bit of time tomorrow (if I have time, I have a plane to catch to Halifax) to find out whether the installation problem that others have had, and that I have had, with the current .72 version, is or is not due to the same problem. I don't see how the laptop could be responsible for the fact that on an "ide legacy" install, ide could be omitted from HOOKS, which would seem to kind of defeat the whole point of an ide legacy install. I also have this feeling that addressing this in the documentation (assuming that there was documentation, apart from the Installation Guide, about which it would be best if I said nothing), would have been a much simpler solution in the first place. Meanwhile, with ide inserted in HOOKS, the laptop is booting perfectly. And the internet connection is spot on too, thanks to you and pelle.k.

IceRAM,

The idea that people don't "understand" seems to be a regular refrain around here.

Thanks for telling me that it is "recommended" (by whom?) that it was a faux pas for me to have edited my last post. Given that the edits to my post took place before there was any reply, I don't understand what you are saying, and my sense is that the following statement has in fact no application to this discussion: "P.S. it is recommended that you don't edit your post after somebody replied in a topic, or after a long time. It is practically impossible for me to know right now what was before and what changed after your edit." Or are you just taking it upon yourself to educate me for the future, just in case I don't know how to use the internet?

Best,

Rory

iBertus · 2006-12-24 06:47:03

So, best I can figure, you're problem could be solved by putting a comment in the initrd config file asking the user to change pata to ide in the HOOKS array. We've never claimed to have the best installer in the world but Arch is more about having a hand-on experience with every step of the install, setup, maintanence than most other distros.

I do not see how you could have this issue with 0.7.2 unless you did an FTP install. I do not think the pata hook was in existance yet when 0.7.2 was released.

tpowa · 2006-12-24 09:38:49

@ redge
please make a bug entry we can assign to someone with all details, your config files attached, rc.conf and mkinitcpio.conf is at least needed.
also did you use the autoconfiguration during install?

sorry the forum is a bit confusing and i would like to collect it in a separate bug report we can link it to showstoppers.
please also keep in mind not all developers read the forum and follow everything.

i tested the alphas on my machines, there they worked fine, but i have no hardware lab here (and if i had one i doubt i would have the time to test everything due to normal life) so users need to help us in finding issues with different hardware. Arch is a distro with a great community, we (the devs) all do this in our spare time, so sometimes stuff is not recognized as issue, but we will try to fix stuff as fast we can.

thanks for your time and help
greetings
tpowa

justinsmithies · 2006-12-24 15:43:16

Sorry to be a pain but the links you give for the 0.8 iso dont work ..

404 page not found.

I was wanting to test the iso on my compaq server with its smart 2 raid..

Get the isos here:
i686: http://www.archlinux.org/~tpowa/newisos/0.8/
x86_64: http://www.archlinux.org/~andyrtr/newisos/0.8/

Happy Christmas

Justin Smithies

mandos · 2006-12-24 15:53:49

i'm afraid these are the isos of the 1st Alpha, they are know to have problems which are fixed in the 2nd release

the default server (ftp.archlinux.org) has the correct images

uberGeek · 2006-12-24 19:23:17

+ Feedback: Dell XPS 1710 laptop, 2GB RAM, SATA HD, GeForce Go 7900GS. 0.8 Alpha 20061218 installed like butter, as did everything else so far. Sawfish is running at 1920x1200, Bluetooth mouse is woking on the internal radio. Only thing left to check is sound and Wifi, but I already see good things in lsmod.

Arch Linux, it's dev's, and the majority of it's community are GREAT, btw.
Fantastic job working on the distro God would use, if he needed Linux.

Thank you developers!

jinn · 2006-12-25 08:38:15

One thing I would like to have added/fixed on voodoo, is better udev-rules: Showing only the partitions that are used on "my computer" (but not on the desktop), and only removable hdds, like usb hdds should be automounted and shown on desktop.

Thanks for a superb distro. Its getting better every day!

martti1 · 2006-12-25 12:30:25

jinn wrote:

One thing I would like to have added/fixed on voodoo, is better udev-rules: Showing only the partitions that are used on "my computer" (but not on the desktop), and only removable hdds, like usb hdds should be automounted and shown on desktop.
Thanks for a superb distro. Its getting better every day!

You are using gnome, right? Install gconf-editor, run it and find nautilus settings, there you should see an option for showing drives on the desktop, if I remember correctly.

kensai · 2006-12-25 21:07:23

I did an ftp install just this morning, everything is fine and I like the installer has some improvements although not that much but is enough keeping simplicity in mind.

Now the only thing that annoys me is when booting it says after Keymap Hook " Cannot load default keymap font" or something like that. Is there a way to fix this?

clement.cc · 2006-12-25 22:37:49

Same results as ravycavy.

Error parsing number on grub.

Abit ab9 board with latest 1.5 BIOS. (Yes, JMicron again)

Arch 7.2 install CD boots successfully, except that I have to use the SATA[8,9] controlled by the Intel chip to get the older kernel recognize it and my sda on install cd becomes hdg after install. Probably because of different kernel versions.

Too bad for me. Can't try the new stuff everyone is talking about. :-(

jinn · 2006-12-25 22:57:59

martti1 wrote:

jinn wrote:
One thing I would like to have added/fixed on voodoo, is better udev-rules: Showing only the partitions that are used on "my computer" (but not on the desktop), and only removable hdds, like usb hdds should be automounted and shown on desktop.
Thanks for a superb distro. Its getting better every day!
You are using gnome, right? Install gconf-editor, run it and find nautilus settings, there you should see an option for showing drives on the desktop, if I remember correctly.

Thats not the problem solver.. that would just remove the icons of the partitions mounted from the desktop, but i would still like to have the usb hdds pop up on the desktop..

Another thing that is not solved by gconf-editor but must be a udev rule is when I open my computer, i got these devices showing:

cd
cdrw
dvd
6.5gb volume
alternate
Placebo
storage
Windows
Filesystem

-----

I dont like to see cd, cdrw and dvd when I only have 1 optical drive that is all of them..

I dont like to see redundant stuff... like Windows, which I havent mounted in fstab but still showing.

I dont like the "6.5gb volume" when its the same as Filesystem partition..(root partition)

This is what I would love to see get fixed in Voodoo.

fk · 2006-12-25 23:26:12

jinn wrote:

martti1 wrote:
jinn wrote:
One thing I would like to have added/fixed on voodoo, is better udev-rules: Showing only the partitions that are used on "my computer" (but not on the desktop), and only removable hdds, like usb hdds should be automounted and shown on desktop.
Thanks for a superb distro. Its getting better every day!
You are using gnome, right? Install gconf-editor, run it and find nautilus settings, there you should see an option for showing drives on the desktop, if I remember correctly.
Thats not the problem solver.. that would just remove the icons of the partitions mounted from the desktop, but i would still like to have the usb hdds pop up on the desktop..
Another thing that is not solved by gconf-editor but must be a udev rule is when I open my computer, i got these devices showing:
cd
cdrw
dvd
6.5gb volume
alternate
Placebo
storage
Windows
Filesystem
-----
I dont like to see cd, cdrw and dvd when I only have 1 optical drive that is all of them..
I dont like to see redundant stuff... like Windows, which I havent mounted in fstab but still showing.
I dont like the "6.5gb volume" when its the same as Filesystem partition..(root partition)
This is what I would love to see get fixed in Voodoo.

What have this to do with the "Voodoo" release? I think it's the Problem from your DE not from Archlinux

Pudge · 2006-12-26 02:00:21

Several months back, I bought a Lite-on internal SATA CD/DVD ROM drive. I couldn't make it work with the 0.7.2 installer or with kernel26 2.6.18 so I set it aside.

Tonight I hooked up the SATA CD/DVD ROM drive and tried a fresh install of Arch from the Voodoo 0.8 Alpha iso.

The new installation program recognized the SATA CD/DVD drive as /dev/sr0 and I was able to install from it. Once Arch and Gnome were installed, I was able to play music CDs from it, and played DVDs using XINE. Now I can eliminate one 40/80 conductor IDE cable. I was never able to get this to work with the Arch 0.7.2 installer or with the kernel26-2.6.18 series.

Nice work devs.

Now I'm just waiting until they release SATA CD/DVD burners, then I won't have ANY 40/80 conductor IDE cables in my computer.

Pudge

krani1 · 2006-12-26 12:38:21

The mirror list is not updated from the official list. Please correct this!

Nice work overall!

mandos · 2006-12-26 14:22:47

Pudge wrote:

Now I'm just waiting until they release SATA CD/DVD burners, then I won't have ANY 40/80 conductor IDE cables in my computer.
Pudge

you can always go and buy a Plextor, SATA recorders exist since 2004

waldek_a · 2006-12-26 16:04:25

hi,
I have done some testing for the last few days. All of them in vmware though. I did 3 types of installations:
- standard
- quickinst with root on RAID5
- quickinst with root on RAID5 with LVM

Executive summary:
all above installation methods worked. There were no show stoppers.

I have some comments though.

standard
- at the end of the installation the installer asks if one wants to boot from RAID, LVM or encrypted volume. What's the purpose? I know the hooks are added afterwards but once I install on a "normal" disk it is quite tricky to migrate to RAID or LVM without some major work. Is it going to be implemented in beta? The stage at which it is offered is too late anyway - the system is installed already.
- during the mkinitcpio.conf there is a message saying "If you install under VMWARE add 'BusLogic' to MODULES= array" which is true but one can install vmware using LSI Logic scsi controller (the default and recommended by the vmware server) and IDE. LSI Logic one needs mptmsi module. So the suggestion will do no harm but won't help in many cases either.

quickinst with root on RAID
- thanks for the quickinst :-)!
- since initrd and initramfs are history would it be possible to change the package containing grub's menu.lst so it refers to kernel26.img instead of initrd26.img?
- the 'autodetect' hook gave me some headache. In the mkinitcpio.conf I had it before raid and lvm2 hooks and somehow the md could not recognize the raid group. As soon as I removed the 'autodetect' and rebuilt the image it started working. Is it a bug or a feature of the autodetect? It is a bit misleading because with 'autodetect' on I could see raid and lvm2 hooks being loaded during the boot but md kept failing to detect the raid group.

quickinst with root on RAID5 with LVM
- would it be possible to add LVM2 to the install iso? I know one can mount the cd and install it manually but it would be more elegant to have it available out of the box.

and general request: wolud it be possible to add lvm2 to the fallback image?

cheers

waldek

Romashka · 2006-12-26 16:32:27

waldek_a wrote:

- during the mkinitcpio.conf there is a message saying "If you install under VMWARE add 'BusLogic' to MODULES= array" which is true but one can install vmware using LSI Logic scsi controller (the default and recommended by the vmware server) and IDE. LSI Logic one needs mptmsi module. So the suggestion will do no harm but won't help in many cases either.

Agree.

waldek_a wrote:

- since initrd and initramfs are history would it be possible to change the package containing grub's menu.lst so it refers to kernel26.img instead of initrd26.img?

This definetely should be done before 0.8 final.

All your comments are very nice! Thanks!

waldek_a · 2006-12-26 19:17:33

I have one more comment on the default installation method and the following feature:
- possibility to select dm and md devices from setup

Before I started /arch/setup I created an RAID5 array:

mdadm --detail --scan

ARRAY /dev/md0 level=raid5 num-devices=3 UUID=087ca383:5957752a:5083c174:d6a00cd9

cat /proc/mdstat

Personalities : [linear] [multipath] [raid0] [raid1] [raid6] [raid5] [raid4] [raid10] 
md0 : active raid5 sdc1[0] sde1[2] sdd1[1]
      1048320 blocks level 5, 64k chunk, algorithm 2 [3/3] [UUU]
      
unused devices: <none>

and created reiserfs file system on it.

then I started /arch/setup and selected "Prepare hard drive -> Set Filesystem Mountpoints" and /dev/md0 was not there. There is no way to specify /dev/md0 as a mountpoint. It seems the installer was not aware of md devices. Creating a partition on it (I didn't know how to refer to it though) did not help either.

Then I tried the same on RAID5+LVM setup and the "Prepare hard drive -> Set Filesystem Mountpoints" works for LVM volumes (to be more precise dm devices). They appear in the list as /dev/mapper/LVM1-root instead of /dev/LVM1/root.

waldek

Kenetixx · 2006-12-27 03:30:03

Just done a clean install of x86_64 Voodoo
SO far it seems ok , but i am having a freezing issues under kde and gnome? basically everything becomes un responsive except the mouse, i can move the mouse cursor but not click nothing. This happens after the pc has been left in idle state for a long time, the only way to fix it is to reset the pc. Still trying to figure it out it might be a kernel problem because i never had this problem on the 2.6.18 kernel, i will keep testing and see if i can find the problem, but everything else went with out a hitch.

Arch Linux

#76 2006-12-23 22:14:28

Re: 0.8 alpha/beta and final Voodoo installation feedback

#77 2006-12-23 23:25:13

Re: 0.8 alpha/beta and final Voodoo installation feedback

#78 2006-12-23 23:44:15

Re: 0.8 alpha/beta and final Voodoo installation feedback

#79 2006-12-24 01:18:46

Re: 0.8 alpha/beta and final Voodoo installation feedback

#80 2006-12-24 01:42:40

Re: 0.8 alpha/beta and final Voodoo installation feedback

#81 2006-12-24 01:47:19

Re: 0.8 alpha/beta and final Voodoo installation feedback

#82 2006-12-24 02:23:45

Re: 0.8 alpha/beta and final Voodoo installation feedback

#83 2006-12-24 06:47:03

Re: 0.8 alpha/beta and final Voodoo installation feedback

#84 2006-12-24 09:38:49

Re: 0.8 alpha/beta and final Voodoo installation feedback

#85 2006-12-24 15:43:16

Re: 0.8 alpha/beta and final Voodoo installation feedback

#86 2006-12-24 15:53:49

Re: 0.8 alpha/beta and final Voodoo installation feedback

#87 2006-12-24 19:23:17

Re: 0.8 alpha/beta and final Voodoo installation feedback

#88 2006-12-25 08:38:15

Re: 0.8 alpha/beta and final Voodoo installation feedback

#89 2006-12-25 12:30:25

Re: 0.8 alpha/beta and final Voodoo installation feedback

#90 2006-12-25 21:07:23

Re: 0.8 alpha/beta and final Voodoo installation feedback

#91 2006-12-25 22:37:49

Re: 0.8 alpha/beta and final Voodoo installation feedback

#92 2006-12-25 22:57:59

Re: 0.8 alpha/beta and final Voodoo installation feedback

#93 2006-12-25 23:26:12

Re: 0.8 alpha/beta and final Voodoo installation feedback

#94 2006-12-26 02:00:21

Re: 0.8 alpha/beta and final Voodoo installation feedback

#95 2006-12-26 12:38:21

Re: 0.8 alpha/beta and final Voodoo installation feedback

#96 2006-12-26 14:22:47

Re: 0.8 alpha/beta and final Voodoo installation feedback

#97 2006-12-26 16:04:25

Re: 0.8 alpha/beta and final Voodoo installation feedback

#98 2006-12-26 16:32:27

Re: 0.8 alpha/beta and final Voodoo installation feedback

#99 2006-12-26 19:17:33

Re: 0.8 alpha/beta and final Voodoo installation feedback

#100 2006-12-27 03:30:03

Re: 0.8 alpha/beta and final Voodoo installation feedback

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