Open source forum software for old school forum like these archforums?

archuser38013 · 2024-08-03 10:59:47

This I think is my favorite forum I visit in terms of utilitarian/minimalist design and function over form.

I saw some hot debate in this previous thread of mine: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=295992

A lot of discontent about the planned move to something more 'new'. I link to that so those who had strong opinions on alternatives which were suggested would be best qualified to answer.

With that in mind I would like to know of what recommendations would be for a sleek forum just like this beloved one?

My criteria would be it would have to have good mobile support as I expect most users will be using mobile.

I never had a smartphone so wouldn't know if this forum supports it.

There is also talk on that thread that this forum's software is now defunct and that is one of the motivations for an upgrade to something which is maintained.

So what software could be a closely related to this forum's design whilst still being maintained and good mobile support?

Last edited by archuser38013 (2024-08-03 11:02:20)

seth · 2024-08-03 14:22:38

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compariso … m_software
phpBB?

good mobile support?

What does that mean? Emojis?

it would have to have good mobile support as I expect most users will be using mobile.
I never had a smartphone so wouldn't know

Make your browser window tall and narrow.

archuser38013 · 2024-08-03 15:48:19

seth wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compariso … m_software
phpBB?
good mobile support?
What does that mean? Emojis?
it would have to have good mobile support as I expect most users will be using mobile.
I never had a smartphone so wouldn't know
Make your browser window tall and narrow.

No just 'responsive' as website dev speak seems to call the proper term.

Phpbb is still maintained? This one does ring a bell even from back in the golden age (naughties) of the internet before it became overtaken with the social media junkies and "influencers".

Last edited by archuser38013 (2024-08-03 15:49:34)

Trilby · 2024-08-03 16:12:45

archuser38013 wrote:

No just 'responsive' as website dev speak seems to call the proper term.

"Responsive" started to mean everything, and as a result it means nothing.

I believe it originally meant a site was designed to conform (at least to some degree) with different screen layouts. This is pretty easily achieved with three steps 1) good design / planning, 2) a little CSS (really, just a couple lines in many cases), and 3) good design / planning. That's all it takes.

But some craptastic JS library authors or widget makers grabbed on to the world and convinced novice coders that in order to be "responsive" their web content needed to use their libraries and widgets. Somehow this also convinced them that using the newest and most popular versions of these libs and widgets would automatically make their web content "responsive" and they no longer needed to bother with good design / planning and even hardly any CSS.

As a result we have shit unresponsive pages loaded with third party libs and widgets there just for the sake of being "modern".

As for being maintained, I'm pretty sure phpBB is still. You can double check upstream. But even if it isn't, who cares? If it works, why do you need some developer mucking with it continually? If code is well written, it can endure a long time without changes. The more code depends on the newest and shiniest features of some dependency, the more likely it will fail to work when that dependency changes. Case in point, I've lost track of all the fad JS tools (or "frameworks") that have come and gone, but despite being expanded a handful of times, there have been very very few breaking changes in HTML. A valid HTML page from ages ago will most likely still be valid and render just about like it always has: it doesn't really need active maintenance if it was made properly in the first place.

Last edited by Trilby (2024-08-03 16:13:39)

Allan · 2024-08-03 23:25:28

Trilby wrote:

As for being maintained, I'm pretty sure phpBB is still. You can double check upstream. But even if it isn't, who cares? If it works, why do you need some developer mucking with it continually?

Maintained does not just mean new features - it included bug fixes and especially security fixes. That is why the current forum software needs replaced.

I'll not that any forum software choice needs to support the Arch SSO for login, which is actually one of the bigger restrictions.

Trilby · 2024-08-04 02:30:10

Allan wrote:

I'll not that any forum software choice needs to support the Arch SSO for login, which is actually one of the bigger restrictions.

Ah, what? This thread is not about software for this forum - the OP is just looking to set up their own forum.

Allan · 2024-08-04 02:41:51

Trilby wrote:

Allan wrote:
I'll not that any forum software choice needs to support the Arch SSO for login, which is actually one of the bigger restrictions.
Ah, what? This thread is not about software for this forum - the OP is just looking to set up their own forum.

Interesting... that is not how I read the first post. I'll leave it to OP to clarify.

cryptearth · 2024-08-04 05:30:45

Allan wrote:

Trilby wrote:
Allan wrote:
I'll not that any forum software choice needs to support the Arch SSO for login, which is actually one of the bigger restrictions.
Ah, what? This thread is not about software for this forum - the OP is just looking to set up their own forum.
Interesting... that is not how I read the first post. I'll leave it to OP to clarify.

I agree with trilby here:
after re-reading the first post it's clear OP wants to setup thier own forum and is asking for recommendations which platform to use, but with these two features:
- good support for mobile devices as they expect most users on mobile platform
- yet a rather simple one lime this forum here
at no point the question came up to integrate with arch bbs - it woukd be preferred to have its simplistic style

archuser38013 · 2024-08-04 10:11:42

cryptearth wrote:

Allan wrote:
Trilby wrote:
Ah, what? This thread is not about software for this forum - the OP is just looking to set up their own forum.
Interesting... that is not how I read the first post. I'll leave it to OP to clarify.
I agree with trilby here:
after re-reading the first post it's clear OP wants to setup thier own forum and is asking for recommendations which platform to use, but with these two features:
- good support for mobile devices as they expect most users on mobile platform
- yet a rather simple one lime this forum here
at no point the question came up to integrate with arch bbs - it woukd be preferred to have its simplistic style

Indeed, that is the thrust of my question.

I agree with Trilby in that it doesn't have to have features for features' sake and my basic hand written few page html sites, with a few tiny js functions, were blazing fast and did just what I wanted with no unwanted bloat. However, I also agree with Allan in that I would seek a maintained forum software for security fixes. This is especially pertinent for an always online internet facing project no?

It seems odd to have to argue that latter point given we are on the arch forums with its rolling release, incessant update, model.

I also thought of another salient point, that given most of my coding experience is in python it might be a good idea to use that. No need to reinvent the wheel. That also circumvents the issue of concern about phps longevity (I did check on their forums and there has indeed been a new release earlier this year) and python shows not signs of becoming obsolete and only growing in popularity. That is, if I find one that fits my aforementioned criteria. A quick look and the immediate result of fluxbb looks like it could be ok for the job. It doesn't have the immediate nostalgic oldschool look of phpbb, though maybe could be modified to have that classic look.

archuser38013 · 2024-08-04 10:13:33

Trilby wrote:

archuser38013 wrote:
No just 'responsive' as website dev speak seems to call the proper term.
"Responsive" started to mean everything, and as a result it means nothing.
I believe it originally meant a site was designed to conform (at least to some degree) with different screen layouts. This is pretty easily achieved with three steps 1) good design / planning, 2) a little CSS (really, just a couple lines in many cases), and 3) good design / planning. That's all it takes.

Well yes, this is all I am concerned about minus the other said crap. Mobile support is a must as the topic will not be for tech nerds and so would expect the majority will be mobile users. Still want a nice clean spartan look, like this arch forum.

mpan · 2024-08-04 11:30:48

Two hints from me, regarding choosing your forum.

Behavior on smartphone screens is relatively easy to check. In Firefox use Tools → Responsive Design Mode (Ctrl+Shift+M). That’s not perfect: it still only uses Gecko for rendering. There may be some differences in other engines. Most notably scaling and how widths are adjusted. But this is a good hint. And it’s unlikely to be better in reality, if it fails in this emulation.

Smartphones are inherently designed as a platform to run applications, not to allow the user to interact with the content. How much I hate saying this, presenting smartphone users with a JavaScript application seems the best option regarding convenience and usability. Except for the few, trivial cases.

Trilby · 2024-08-04 13:03:33

archuser38013 wrote:

I also agree with Allan in that I would seek a maintained forum software for security fixes. This is especially pertinent for an always online internet facing project no?

Not necessarily.

There is a common view that software needs to be continually updated with security fixes. As a general heuristic guideline that's a good view to hold, but as any heuristic guideline over-application of the rule, just for the sake of applying the rule, often leads to errors.

You only need security patches if you've done things that were vulnerable to security holes in the first place. Whether this applies to a given bit of software or not is a good question to consider, but it is absolutely not a universal. A simple "Hello world" program would never need "security patches". A simple html page would also never need security patches.

Now if you have a website that relies of all those dime-a-dozen replaced-ever-six-months libraries or widgets, then yes, it will be vulnerable to all sorts of security issues and it will need to be patched every six months or so. But that's shit design from the start often called "penetrate and patch". Software is made thoughtlessly and thrown together with no criteria other than managing to get the job done; then every time some security issue is found, the minimal amount of "fix" is implemented to avoid that specific security threat. But this approach isn't even secure: it's a false sense of security as the security upgrades are, by definition, reactive and applied after the fact.

Now, was phpBB poorly designed in this way? I don't know, I've not reviewed it's code. But it is absolutely false to claim that all software must get regular security updates in order to be safe.

And not being compatible with some to-be-determined SSO mechanism that you'd not even want to use, certainly isn't a security vulnerability.

Last edited by Trilby (2024-08-04 14:26:59)

cryptearth · 2024-08-04 16:14:06

I've once written a very simplistic forum myself in only a few source files copied from a beginners php book - it's author used his own code on his site for years
there was even some very simplistic user-management - but no administration or moderation
write one yourself might be neat for a beginner and hobbyist who only expects a dozen users - but leaping into mobile platforms already requires some knowledge and skill for the presentation layer (although there're frameworks helping with that)
the "hardest" part is to get account security right: registration and login as well as spam protection - the rest can be split into simple parts: overview list, display of a topic and edititng to write new posts

I guess a good start could be here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compariso … m_software - according to it two more popular options are phpBB and MyBB - names I know about 20 years now

another option still relevant these days mostly for developers are mailing lists - there're ready to use services out there or can be easy set up and integrated into existing mail servers

mpan · 2024-08-04 16:24:38

Trilby wrote:

There is a common view that software needs to be continually updated with security fixes. As a general heuristic guideline that's a good view to hold, but as any heuristic guideline over-application of the rule, just for the sake of applying the rule, often leads to errors.
(…)And not being compatible with some to-be-determined SSO mechanism that you'd not even want to use, certainly isn't a security vulnerability.

A general heuristic suggests, this is the kind of reasoning that leads to most vulnerabilities.

Forum software isn’t “hello world” or single HTML page either, so the entire argument is pointless too. There do exist some rare examples, mostly of non-networked software, that didn’t have serious bugs detected over years. But this doesn’t imply it’s a general rule. phpBB specifically had numerous vulnerabilities and bugs detected, over and over again.

Finally, software does age. Authentication methods need updating, Unicode handling needs improvement, internet structure changes, even something as simple as a new TLD being created may pose a problem. This has to be continuously addressed. And even with that issues still do appear and remain for years.

Unless it’s built into a completely separated and unupdated machine, software isn’t like a car you buy and can use for the next 30 years. Software is a process and specific program instances are just manifestations of that process. This is among the reasons I so much dislike pushing apps everywhere: it’s technically impossible to not make them discriminatory and volatile.

Last edited by mpan (2024-08-04 16:26:02)

Trilby · 2024-08-04 16:38:33

mpan wrote:

... even something as simple as a new TLD being created may pose a problem.

Nonsense / FUD.

There is no way the addition of a new TLD somewhere else on the internet could have any impact on a sanely written standalone website.

If someone tries to register even on this forum with an email address with a totally made up TLD for their email, then it will fail to deliver any email - because the mail server doesn't exist, not because the forum software doesn't recognize the TLD - or it will succeed just fine if actual email confirmation isn't required.

The forum isn't going to come crashing down because someone enters myname@adomain.nosuchtld

And if for any reason the software only accepted *.com emails and failed to allow registration of some new TLD, that's not an issue from the new TLD, but an issue that the site was designed wrong in the first place. At no point were emails expected / required to end in ".com" only.

So when software is poorly designed taking advantage of current conditions that are just coincidental but not necessary, then yes, it will need lots of patching as conditions change. But again, that's bad design from the start (which tends to be what those fad JS-frameworks do). If you take shortcuts that just happen to not fail today, they likely will fail tomorrow - so don't take foolish shortcuts. And don't let some shit programmers taking shortcuts that then require constant patching be evidence that all software inherently needs patching.

Last edited by Trilby (2024-08-04 16:47:41)

mpan · 2024-08-04 17:56:46

All that is needed is a forum or a blog software to recognize URLs in posts and turn them into HTML anchors. I encountered that first as a phpBB-based forum administrator, when .info TLD became popular (introduced over 20 years ago). The most recent repetition of the issue is the arrival of .zip and .mov domains.⁽¹⁾
____
⁽¹⁾ With the actual risk grossly misrepresented by journalists in Q2 2023. But sensationalism doesn’t mean that isn’t a real problem to be addressed by software processing user-generated content.

Trilby · 2024-08-04 18:32:32

No all that is needed is that, plus software that was designed on assumptions just as I suggested (that the existing version coincidentally worked, rather than working because it was correct).

mpan · 2024-08-04 19:52:25

You mentioned some unspecified “currend conditions”. I don’t know, what you mean in the case of TLDs. I’m even less sure of where you are going with the assumptions part. Any software is designed with some current assumptions. There is no way around that. One may try to predict the future and loosen the assumptions, but in practice humans mostly fail to predict the future.

I also fail to see, what you’re trying to advice OP to do. Even assuming you’d be right on using unmaintained code: do you point to any existing forum software, that doesn’t need fixes?

Trilby · 2024-08-04 21:00:21

mpan wrote:

I don’t know, what you mean in the case of TLDs.

It was your example - I just responded to it. Geesh.

archuser38013 · 2024-08-06 05:29:48

mpan wrote:

Two hints from me, regarding choosing your forum.
Behavior on smartphone screens is relatively easy to check. In Firefox use Tools → Responsive Design Mode (Ctrl+Shift+M). That’s not perfect: it still only uses Gecko for rendering. There may be some differences in other engines. Most notably scaling and how widths are adjusted. But this is a good hint. And it’s unlikely to be better in reality, if it fails in this emulation.
Smartphones are inherently designed as a platform to run applications, not to allow the user to interact with the content. How much I hate saying this, presenting smartphone users with a JavaScript application seems the best option regarding convenience and usability. Except for the few, trivial cases.

Yes I remember when making websites there are several websites too which allow you to check and even choose specific devices. It can also be done locally by rolling a mobile device in things like genymotion or one of the other many emulators.

That is putting the cart before the horse though eh? I want a good idea what the capabilities of the forum software of choice will be before making it and testing on devices.

archuser38013 · 2024-08-06 05:35:12

cryptearth wrote:

I've once written a very simplistic forum myself in only a few source files copied from a beginners php book - it's author used his own code on his site for years
there was even some very simplistic user-management - but no administration or moderation
write one yourself might be neat for a beginner and hobbyist who only expects a dozen users - but leaping into mobile platforms already requires some knowledge and skill for the presentation layer (although there're frameworks helping with that)
the "hardest" part is to get account security right: registration and login as well as spam protection - the rest can be split into simple parts: overview list, display of a topic and edititng to write new posts
I guess a good start could be here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compariso … m_software - according to it two more popular options are phpBB and MyBB - names I know about 20 years now
another option still relevant these days mostly for developers are mailing lists - there're ready to use services out there or can be easy set up and integrated into existing mail servers

Yes while it sounds like a nice idea to create one from scratch, for the reasons you mentioned, it seems a more involved process than the couple of html sites I wrote from scratch.

phpbb being such an old horse in the game and also being still maintained, while still keeping its oldschool design are good points in its favor. Well I don't know how the design is of recent released but I would have thought/hoped you could still take on the classic layout and they haven't succumbed to 'trendyness' and bells and whistles to stay contemporary or if they have they were optional extras.

archuser38013 · 2024-08-06 05:46:00

I am interested in the above debate.

Trilby I am not sure what you are getting at. I agree not to do sloppy code and not to pick some flashy new software just because of some trend. I would certainly opt for simple solid small codebases as preference. However you seem to be implying code should be perfect from the getgo and if it isn't then the developers have failed or are sloppy/lazy? Maybe I am misrepresenting what you said but that is the gist I am getting.

Maybe sometimes but that is not the rule as to the reason for code requiring updates.

Of course everyone would prefer they got it right perfectly first time and never had to update it but that is not what happens as most of us are fallible and even if not the world isn't static. New issues arise that weren't issues in the past and such and that is where updates and patches are pertinent no?

Trilby · 2024-08-06 12:54:00

If I write a hello world program which is literally a minimal hello world relying on nothing but a functional libc with no implementation specific features, then it is highly likely that that exact same code could continue functioning without edits indefinitely. If this much isn't obvious, then there is just nothing more to say.

In contrast, if I write a wayland compositor that uses the wlroots-0.18 library, we can be almost certain it will need frequent updates because every minor version of wlroots so far has resulting in substantial API breaking changes often requiring a full rewrite of projects that rely on it.

Now if I wrote a hello world program that for no particularly good reason linked to wlroots just to use the wl_list struct or some other such utility, then suddenly a program that does nothing but print hello world could need frequent updates in order to avoid issues.

So the way in which code is written impacts the likelihood of needing patches. I'm just baffled that this is even a remotely controversial point. I really cant add anymore here as we seem to disagree on the reality in front of us.

Last edited by Trilby (2024-08-06 12:54:32)

cryptearth · 2024-08-06 13:56:53

archuser38013 wrote:

phpbb being such an old horse in the game and also being still maintained, while still keeping its oldschool design are good points in its favor. Well I don't know how the design is of recent released but I would have thought/hoped you could still take on the classic layout and they haven't succumbed to 'trendyness' and bells and whistles to stay contemporary or if they have they were optional extras.

haven't touched phpbb myself on years - but if I would need to setup a forum it would be my first choice
I remember it comes with a few skins/designs and back in the days there were quite a community which provided all sorts of different styles
but be aware - IIRC the implementation of early versions had flaws in how designs were done - and if I'm mistaken it may could bern an attack vector - but that was changed and today should be save to use styles by 3rd party

archuser38013 · 2024-08-08 07:42:42

Trilby wrote:

If I write a hello world program which is literally a minimal hello world relying on nothing but a functional libc with no implementation specific features, then it is highly likely that that exact same code could continue functioning without edits indefinitely. If this much isn't obvious, then there is just nothing more to say.
In contrast, if I write a wayland compositor that uses the wlroots-0.18 library, we can be almost certain it will need frequent updates because every minor version of wlroots so far has resulting in substantial API breaking changes often requiring a full rewrite of projects that rely on it.
Now if I wrote a hello world program that for no particularly good reason linked to wlroots just to use the wl_list struct or some other such utility, then suddenly a program that does nothing but print hello world could need frequent updates in order to avoid issues.
So the way in which code is written impacts the likelihood of needing patches. I'm just baffled that this is even a remotely controversial point. I really cant add anymore here as we seem to disagree on the reality in front of us.

As someone else has pointed out in the thread, it just seems like somewhat of a false equivalency to compare a simple hello world script, or even a basic html page, to a web forum. I don't know much about what happens under the hood of forums as yet but others have indicated it seems there are more moving parts no? More parts subject to errors and requiring security patching.

Your point seems to be that all forum code beyond the simplicity of hello world is extraneous bloat, yet others are saying there is quite a bit more necessary code to run a basic forum. That seems to be the crux of the matter.

I am trying to tease out where the truth lays in those two views since I am looking for the simplest necessary code to run a basic forum. Like the Einstein saying, "everything should be as simple as possible; no simpler".

Last edited by archuser38013 (2024-08-08 07:50:08)

Arch Linux

#1 2024-08-03 10:59:47

Open source forum software for old school forum like these archforums?

#2 2024-08-03 14:22:38

Re: Open source forum software for old school forum like these archforums?

#3 2024-08-03 15:48:19

Re: Open source forum software for old school forum like these archforums?

#4 2024-08-03 16:12:45

Re: Open source forum software for old school forum like these archforums?

#5 2024-08-03 23:25:28

Re: Open source forum software for old school forum like these archforums?

#6 2024-08-04 02:30:10

Re: Open source forum software for old school forum like these archforums?

#7 2024-08-04 02:41:51

Re: Open source forum software for old school forum like these archforums?

#8 2024-08-04 05:30:45

Re: Open source forum software for old school forum like these archforums?

#9 2024-08-04 10:11:42

Re: Open source forum software for old school forum like these archforums?

#10 2024-08-04 10:13:33

Re: Open source forum software for old school forum like these archforums?

#11 2024-08-04 11:30:48

Re: Open source forum software for old school forum like these archforums?

#12 2024-08-04 13:03:33

Re: Open source forum software for old school forum like these archforums?

#13 2024-08-04 16:14:06

Re: Open source forum software for old school forum like these archforums?

#14 2024-08-04 16:24:38

Re: Open source forum software for old school forum like these archforums?

#15 2024-08-04 16:38:33

Re: Open source forum software for old school forum like these archforums?

#16 2024-08-04 17:56:46

Re: Open source forum software for old school forum like these archforums?

#17 2024-08-04 18:32:32

Re: Open source forum software for old school forum like these archforums?

#18 2024-08-04 19:52:25

Re: Open source forum software for old school forum like these archforums?

#19 2024-08-04 21:00:21

Re: Open source forum software for old school forum like these archforums?

#20 2024-08-06 05:29:48

Re: Open source forum software for old school forum like these archforums?

#21 2024-08-06 05:35:12

Re: Open source forum software for old school forum like these archforums?

#22 2024-08-06 05:46:00

Re: Open source forum software for old school forum like these archforums?

#23 2024-08-06 12:54:00

Re: Open source forum software for old school forum like these archforums?

#24 2024-08-06 13:56:53

Re: Open source forum software for old school forum like these archforums?

#25 2024-08-08 07:42:42

Re: Open source forum software for old school forum like these archforums?

Board footer