Spisak's Grey Paper on interface design beyond Mezzo.

Millzee · 2006-12-31 15:30:00

Hello,

This is my first post to these forums, though I've been using Arch for a month (Linux since early adolescence, going Red Hat -> Mandrake -> Arch) and browsing these forums throughout. While I was looking for a new distro, given that I disliked the inflexibility of Mandriva 2007, I came across Spisak's work on Mezzo and the principles behind it.

I have spent most of my time as a KDE user, which I still am, but many of the principles behind Mezzo had impressed me, if not all. I have modified my KDE desktop to fit in line with some of the principles that Spisak produced. However, despite my fondness for KDE, I am leaning towards actually finding more basic components for a DE and effectively building up my own, or modifying an existing one that isn't so cluttered, based on my own thoughts and feelings tempered by the influence of Mezzo.

Yet, looking at the projects out there, I noticed that Mezzo doesn't seem to have a huge deal of influence or impact beyond the SymphonyOS project. My query, then, is have others here actually been influenced by Spisak's ideas and has anyone attempted to reconfigure their DE to fit into with those principles?

I know there is a Mezzo section in the AUR, but can't find the .DEB files it needs sadly. Yet, that does indicate some interest in the community, as do some of the posts I've read. However, I have been looking at Enlightenment and it seems very flexible from what I've seen so far and might attempt to use that as a base, rather than trying to use Mezzo itself. Openbox was another idea, but I'm not sure I like it as much, same with Xfce.

Be well,
Rob.

elasticdog · 2006-12-31 18:54:24

I had never heard of Mezzo before, so I did a little Googling, and think it's an creative idea. I probably wouldn't use it myself, but definitely some interesting thoughts on interface design. In anyone is interested, Jason Spisak's paper "Laws of Interface Design" is nearly impossible to find a copy of...luckily there's the way back machine : http://web.archive.org/web/200506100310 … ilaws.html

Millzee · 2006-12-31 21:18:54

I found it rather difficult to find, too. This was part of the reason why, despite its mention elsewhere in these forums and in the .DEB-based distro forums, I concluded that it hadn't sparked a large interest.

Which is a shame. At the very least, the principles do present challenges and from the perspective of a user rather than an expert (in his own words). I found myself sceptical of principles 2 and 7 and somewhat weary of principle 5, but I would have to confess that, before Mezzo, I never really thought very deeply about UI design.

Be well,
Rob.

Basu · 2007-01-01 04:10:03

As far as I remember, Mezzo is based on FVWM, which is an extremely configurable WM. Once you learn to bend it to your will, there's very little that it can't do. I'm currently making my own interface based on menus rather that icons or buttons. But bewarned, it can be extremely addictive.

pauldonnelly · 2007-01-01 07:43:40

Basu wrote:

Once you learn to bend it to your will, there's very little that it can't do. I'm currently making my own interface based on menus rather that icons or buttons. But bewarned, it can be extremely addictive.

That's funny; I just did the same thing. I wanted something like Plan 9's WM except with strict mouse focus and some way to re-stack windows. Fvwm to the rescue! The more I think about it, the more it seems dumb to have title bars (I can see the window itself, thank you very much) and buttons (infrequently used, but easy to hit by accident).

Basu · 2007-01-01 13:39:35

I only wish that you could use rectangular buttons in the windeco. But doesn't look possible at the moment.

Millzee · 2007-01-02 14:25:02

FVWM has been another one that I've looked at. My wireless card got fried two days ago from a power surge and it means that I at least a few days time to get aquainted with configuring it to my ideals before my new Netgear card arrives without the distraction of the net.

The idea of windows lacking title bars is an interesting one. A lot of that does end up as wasted space and the functions are replacable in other forms.

Be well,
Rob.

pauldonnelly · 2007-01-03 10:14:56

Millzee wrote:

The idea of windows lacking title bars is an interesting one.

That reminds me; I meant to comment on the topic at hand.

I think Mezzo has some cool ideas, but not enough focus on improving minute-to-minute actions that we do all the time, like managing windows.

Basu · 2007-01-03 11:49:20

pauldonnelly wrote:

I think Mezzo has some cool ideas, but not enough focus on improving minute-to-minute actions that we do all the time, like managing windows.

Talking about things we do all the time, here's a good article on how FVWM scores over other WMs:

http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=9772

mutze13 · 2007-01-03 12:08:26

Basu wrote:

I only wish that you could use rectangular buttons in the windeco. But doesn't look possible at the moment.

You can do this with the ButtonWidth patch from this site.
Ontopic: For me Mezzo has some interesting ideas but nothing I can't do with fvwm normaly.
Also there are too much menus and icons for things I use 1 or 2 times in a month so they are only confusing me.

Basu · 2007-01-03 15:30:40

Do I need to recompile FVWM to get the patches working? It looks to me that the patch allows one size for all buttons, which isn't exactly what I'm looking for. Might try though

phrakture · 2007-01-03 15:35:43

I've always been interested, in a way, in interface design. Not really the graphical part, but more the study of usage and layout.

This paper referenced, some of the Windowlab ideas, and some of the stuff from the Ion guy ( http://modeemi.fi/~tuomov/vis/ ) are very cool, but I have actually not done much of this in practice.

mutze13 · 2007-01-03 16:15:17

Basu wrote:

Do I need to recompile FVWM to get the patches working? It looks to me that the patch allows one size for all buttons, which isn't exactly what I'm looking for. Might try though

You need to recompile. And you're right. It allows 1 width for all buttons but you can set the buttons rectangular and not only squarely. You can try to make pixmap-buttons which are on one site transparent. so you can adjust the width of the buttons.

phrakture · 2007-01-03 16:31:51

Here's windowlab, which is slightly unrelated, but still has some real interesting usability points:
http://nickgravgaard.com/windowlab/

Zoranthus · 2007-01-03 16:48:21

Millzee wrote:

The idea of windows lacking title bars is an interesting one. A lot of that does end up as wasted space and the functions are replacable in other forms.

In fluxbox you can use a window's titlebar as grouping header for severeal windows of completely different apps so you have one windows with several apps in in it.
Very useful for grouping several windows you intend to keep open. Each group only takes up one place in the taskbar.

The mezzo principles sound very interesting.. especially utilizing the screen conerns more (read: at all ) sounds like a great idea.. it's indeed the easiest place to get to with a mouse. Gitta search for some app/widget/dersklet that can put something configurable right in the corners.

Basu · 2007-01-03 16:54:20

WindowLab sounds like a nice hobby, but it isn't something that I'll be using any time soon. And no virtual desktop? VDs were one of the biggest draws when I switched from windoze

Millzee · 2007-01-03 20:55:32

Zoranthus wrote:

The mezzo principles sound very interesting.. especially utilizing the screen conerns more (read: at all ) sounds like a great idea.. it's indeed the easiest place to get to with a mouse. Gitta search for some app/widget/dersklet that can put something configurable right in the corners.

Well, that was one of the first ideas that attracted me. For example, placing a menu button in the top left corner because that is where user of a European alphabet (which covers the huge majority of languages) will be inclined to look first, rather than the bottom right. Little insights like that are very useful.

Basu wrote:

WindowLab sounds like a nice hobby, but it isn't something that I'll be using any time soon. And no virtual desktop? VDs were one of the biggest draws when I switched from windoze

Certainly, with my new WiFi card, I'm using FVWM now (and have tried E17 before). The presence of virtual desktops is a great addition to any DE.

Be well,
Rob.

Arch Linux

#1 2006-12-31 15:30:00

Spisak's Grey Paper on interface design beyond Mezzo.

#2 2006-12-31 18:54:24

Re: Spisak's Grey Paper on interface design beyond Mezzo.

#3 2006-12-31 21:18:54

Re: Spisak's Grey Paper on interface design beyond Mezzo.

#4 2007-01-01 04:10:03

Re: Spisak's Grey Paper on interface design beyond Mezzo.

#5 2007-01-01 07:43:40

Re: Spisak's Grey Paper on interface design beyond Mezzo.

#6 2007-01-01 13:39:35

Re: Spisak's Grey Paper on interface design beyond Mezzo.

#7 2007-01-02 14:25:02

Re: Spisak's Grey Paper on interface design beyond Mezzo.

#8 2007-01-03 10:14:56

Re: Spisak's Grey Paper on interface design beyond Mezzo.

#9 2007-01-03 11:49:20

Re: Spisak's Grey Paper on interface design beyond Mezzo.

#10 2007-01-03 12:08:26

Re: Spisak's Grey Paper on interface design beyond Mezzo.

#11 2007-01-03 15:30:40

Re: Spisak's Grey Paper on interface design beyond Mezzo.

#12 2007-01-03 15:35:43

Re: Spisak's Grey Paper on interface design beyond Mezzo.

#13 2007-01-03 16:15:17

Re: Spisak's Grey Paper on interface design beyond Mezzo.

#14 2007-01-03 16:31:51

Re: Spisak's Grey Paper on interface design beyond Mezzo.

#15 2007-01-03 16:48:21

Re: Spisak's Grey Paper on interface design beyond Mezzo.

#16 2007-01-03 16:54:20

Re: Spisak's Grey Paper on interface design beyond Mezzo.

#17 2007-01-03 20:55:32

Re: Spisak's Grey Paper on interface design beyond Mezzo.

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