Arch Linux

TheOldFellow-is-back

Member

Registered: 2023-06-13

Posts: 2

Moving on from x11

My system installed decades ago and maintained up-to-date, is still based on x11.
I have 2 questions:
1) should I remove x11, and move entirely to wayland?
2) how do I do that?

I'm quite happy to be told to 'search', but can I have a clue what to search for?

Thanks.

Whoracle

Member

Registered: 2010-11-02

Posts: 172

Re: Moving on from x11

1) Depends. Does wayland offer something that your current setup doesn't and that's worth the hassle? Wayland still has some issues, and some programs still need X11, so you're running xwayland.
2) Find out the following:
  a) how many of your needed programs are wayland compatible?
  b) is there a wayland replacement for your chosen DE/WM? For i3 there's sway and hyprland, for KDE and GNOME you can just use those, for openbox there's labWC, but for e.g. AwesomeWM there's currently nothing, at least for some of its features.

Once you've done all that and still want to go wayland, install the compositor of choice (see https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Wayland, configure the Portal(s) and deal with the occasional bug if you're unlucky.

Personal opinion: It's not worth it unless you want specific features. Wayland has been THE FUTURE for 14(?) years now and still isn't fully there, and unless X11 support is dropped for programs you are using or by the distro you are using, there's no need to switch. I try it every few months, and always go back to X11, because for me it just works.

Last edited by Whoracle (2025-07-22 08:42:10)

TheOldFellow-is-back

Member

Registered: 2023-06-13

Posts: 2

Re: Moving on from x11

Thanks.

sipak

Member

Registered: 2019-02-03

Posts: 50

Re: Moving on from x11

Wayland is mature now. No longer "the future".
X11 is deprecated for several reasons. I suggest the oposite: look forward not backwards. Install wayland, use it for a while without removing X. If after a while everything is fine, you may remove X, or leave it as backup.

But it also depends what you use it for. Installed DecadeS ago? Plural? That doesn't sound like a desktop or workstation but a server. If running a server, then use whatever that reduces the number of packages/reduces complexity/removes attack surface. ej: prolly get rid of X anyway.

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A problem to do what everybody else does without questioning. A danger to go against the way things are just because. Too much or too little, ivory towers of perfection or functional mess... Balance is what this world needs. Selective, not the middle ground. Objectivity and idealism, but within a pragmatic scope. - Minimalism is achieved through efficiency, not deficiency.

Lone_Wolf

Administrator

From: Netherlands, Europe

Registered: 2005-10-04

Posts: 14,312

Re: Moving on from x11

There are good reasons to NOT switch and stay on X, look at https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=302128 for some of them.

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Disliking systemd intensely, but not satisfied with alternatives so focusing on taming systemd.

clean chroot building not flexible enough ?
Try clean chroot manager by graysky

close2zero

Member

From: Norway

Registered: 2025-07-14

Posts: 65

Re: Moving on from x11

Just wanted to add a small note from a minimalist X11 setup perspective:

I've run Arch with just xorg-server and xorg-xinit for quite a while now, with Openbox and no display manager. I genuinely can't think of anything in my setup that would benefit from switching to Wayland. Quite the opposite – X gives me full manual control, minimal overhead, and works perfectly with my custom scripts, keybindings, and audio/video pipelines.

That's not to say Wayland doesn't have strengths — but for those of us who enjoy building systems brick by brick and keeping userland complexity low, X11 (even today) remains hard to beat.

Lone_Wolf's link is a good reminder: not all use-cases benefit from chasing the new thing. Sometimes the best system is the one that stays out of your way.

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while true; do mount /dev/close2zero /mnt/clarity; done

sipak

Member

Registered: 2019-02-03

Posts: 50

Re: Moving on from x11

X runs as root creating attack surface. It can also listen to network, and the code is infamous for being absurdly gigantic and messy.

Wayland is technically superior to X in everything. From the minimalist, correctness, efficiency, and security perspectives, wayland is the horse, not X.

This is not teamsport favoritism. It is objectively better. Check this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_( … land_and_X
But yes, of course, there are cases where you do need X (your ancient application doesn't run on wayland). But there is Xwayland. And while some purists don't like that, truth is it is not wayland's fault that there are applications that have not been maintained since I was sipping from a baby bottle, and xwayland allows you to run those relics while also running a safer, cleaner, lighter wayland. Are there options? Yes. But really anything is better than X. Better to move on to wayland, than keep X11 lingering for many more years just because somebody likes river more. https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=302128

Last edited by sipak (2025-08-07 10:37:58)

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A problem to do what everybody else does without questioning. A danger to go against the way things are just because. Too much or too little, ivory towers of perfection or functional mess... Balance is what this world needs. Selective, not the middle ground. Objectivity and idealism, but within a pragmatic scope. - Minimalism is achieved through efficiency, not deficiency.

Lone_Wolf

Administrator

From: Netherlands, Europe

Registered: 2005-10-04

Posts: 14,312

Re: Moving on from x11

X runs as root creating attack surface.

X hasn't run as root on my system in many years, see https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Xorg#Rootless_Xorg

It can also listen to network,

Yes, it can. It's easy to disable that though.

and the code is infamous for being absurdly gigantic and messy.

yup, but wayland code quality doesn't have a great rep also.

https://community.kde.org/Plasma/Waylan … ant_Issues should clarify what KDE devs think wayland is still missing.

Better to move on to wayland, than keep X11 lingering for many more years just because somebody likes river more

River seems to be a wayland compositor ?

I feel every user should decide for themselves what works best for them.

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Disliking systemd intensely, but not satisfied with alternatives so focusing on taming systemd.

clean chroot building not flexible enough ?
Try clean chroot manager by graysky

sipak

Member

Registered: 2019-02-03

Posts: 50

Re: Moving on from x11

I agree. User is king.

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A problem to do what everybody else does without questioning. A danger to go against the way things are just because. Too much or too little, ivory towers of perfection or functional mess... Balance is what this world needs. Selective, not the middle ground. Objectivity and idealism, but within a pragmatic scope. - Minimalism is achieved through efficiency, not deficiency.

close2zero

Member

From: Norway

Registered: 2025-07-14

Posts: 65

Re: Moving on from x11

^ I second that statement

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while true; do mount /dev/close2zero /mnt/clarity; done

seth

Member

From: Don't DM me only for attention

Registered: 2012-09-03

Posts: 69,096

Re: Moving on from x11

/me wonders whether arch should simply package Arcan

@sipak
"A is better than B" is an inherently religious statement.
"A is better than B at C" is falsifiable and therefore can be true or false.

"Wayland is better than X11 at enforcing a scene graph (resulting at an easier achievable and more efficient synchronized framebuffer¹)" and "Wayland is better than X11 at fragmenting a niche market" are certainly things I'd subscribe to.
"Xorg is better than wayland at debugging and logging and automatization" is something I'd almost subscribe to, but it would be wrong because that has nothing to do w/ "wayland" but strictly depends on the specific compositor.
What btw. makes the entire discussion moot as long as you talk about "wayland". There is no "wayland" installed on anyones system and the various compositors veer and shift drastically in quality.

From the minimalist, correctness, efficiency, and security perspectives, wayland is

…shifting the burden onto the xdg-desktop-portal stuff out of the flatschpak realm.

Security and convenience are polar opposites and you'll have to find a balance between them.
This fundamental truth will not change w/ any display server. Ever.
And what you'll be running instead of X11 will never be "wayland", it'll be xdg-desktop-portal - at best.
So check how you like /that/.

¹Not everybody seems to consider that "better", though
https://www.phoronix.com/news/Wayland-T … trol-Proto

Yes, it can. It's easy to disable that though.

As a matter of fact, that's the default setup since ages.

Full disclosure: X11 is horribly inefficient.
The way clients do hardware acceleration with a gazillion permanently changing GL contexts doesn't make this any better.
Suffering from a borderline OCD at micro-optimizing, this pains me everytime I just think about all the kernel/userspace context switches, the round-trips and the overhead of all the independent drawables.
The redirections, necessary for XCOMPOSITE.
The colliding buffer swaps.
When I can't sleep, I count the CPU and GPU cycles that all costs…

I wish a more straight forward graphics protocol had replaced all of this a decade ago. Or even better: 20 years ago.
But that still hasn't happened for a reason: whether it's Y-windows, Fresco or now Wayland; all the proposed replacements have been treated like vanity-driven NIH projects by everyone too many involved all the time from the get-go.

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How to upload text · How to boot w/o GUI · Disable Windows Fast-Start! · Fix your xinitrc

close2zero

Member

From: Norway

Registered: 2025-07-14

Posts: 65

Re: Moving on from x11

I really appreciate the tone and insight in the last few posts, especially Seth's breakdown of the fundamental trade-offs involved here. That post genuinely helped crystallize why this debate often turns circular.

Just to briefly share my personal take, from what might be considered a “true minimal X11” setup:
I've been running Arch for quite some time now with only xorg-server and xorg-xinit, booting directly into Openbox — no display manager, no compositor, no custom X configuration. Everything I use daily (audio routing, video capture, keyboard-driven workflows) just works. And while I understand the architectural advantages of Wayland in terms of scene management and modern protocol design, I haven’t yet encountered a compelling practical reason to switch — especially not when everything I depend on functions reliably and without overhead.

I do not use X11 for nostalgia or resistance to change. On the contrary, I regularly test alternatives in VMs — and if/when Wayland (or any compositor using it) offers something I truly need, I’ll migrate without hesitation. But as things stand, it would be a step sideways, not forward.

Also, thanks for the pointer to xdg-desktop-portal being the new reality. That alone is worth evaluating seriously for anyone thinking Wayland = minimal.

So yeah, like others said — the best system is the one that stays out of your way.

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while true; do mount /dev/close2zero /mnt/clarity; done

tekstryder

Member

Registered: 2013-02-14

Posts: 451

Re: Moving on from x11

xdg-desktop-portal being the new reality. That alone is worth evaluating seriously for anyone thinking Wayland = minimal.

Well-stated post.

Regarding minimalist native Wayland (no Xwayland), I've ditched xdg-desktop-portal and friends as I'll never need to share my screen.

Hyprland and Sway both configured similarly, and rather bare-bones to suit my preference. I'm a wallpaper= #000000 kinda guy.

I won't partake in any arguing or evangelizing about which is "better". Use the tools that work for you.

Last edited by tekstryder (2025-08-07 20:15:43)

Succulent of your garden

Member

From: Majestic kingdom of pot plants

Registered: 2024-02-29

Posts: 862

Re: Moving on from x11

Hope someone here can understand the reference.

There always some trade offs, for example we are here all making the trade off with system-d in someway. Also you are making a trade off if you are using the GNU core utils, if you are not compiling your kernel you are making a trade off and if you want to be annoying as hell: if you don't compile all your programs with LLVM you are making a trade off.  So in the end is up to the user to choose wisely his own trade offs, that's all. I really think the most important thing is to not lose  the thinking and playing with the tools, because that's makes you not a simplicio, as Galileo says in his Dialog book, making the reference out of the context of the book of course.

Last edited by Succulent of your garden (2025-08-11 23:57:59)

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str( @soyg ) == str( @potplant ) btw!

close2zero

Member

From: Norway

Registered: 2025-07-14

Posts: 65

Re: Moving on from x11

Hope someone here can understand the reference.

I know that this "What is the best setup" just will end up with a meaningless discussion based on personal preferences and experiences most likely will end up going in circles. As in "All roads leads to Rome" kinda way.

I feel every user should decide for themselves what works best for them.

I think Lone_Wolfs statement wraps it up nicely.

And you are of course right in your statement: "There is always trade offs, ...". I believe most people will see your point and agree one a way of another. Cause the fact is: We trade off all the time. You mentioned system-d, using the GNU core utils, the subject of compiling your own kernel and compile all your programs with LLVM. These are all good examples. And then the punchline "... the most important thing is to not lose  the thinking and playing with the tools, ..." wraps it all up. Well stated Succulent of your garden.

[Edit] This thread did push me out of my comfort zone, as you can see in this post in the Screenshot Thread:
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php … 8#p2255708
So this discussion ended in "... the most important thing is to not lose  the thinking and playing with the tools, ..." for me at least.

Last edited by close2zero (2025-08-12 05:32:21)

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while true; do mount /dev/close2zero /mnt/clarity; done

Succulent of your garden

Member

From: Majestic kingdom of pot plants

Registered: 2024-02-29

Posts: 862

Re: Moving on from x11

So this discussion ended in "... the most important thing is to not lose  the thinking and playing with the tools, ..." for me at least.

You nail it

EDIT: btw Close2zero had you made a script to automate the installation of your setup ? Maybe you should try that

Last edited by Succulent of your garden (2025-08-12 12:14:29)

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str( @soyg ) == str( @potplant ) btw!

close2zero

Member

From: Norway

Registered: 2025-07-14

Posts: 65

Re: Moving on from x11

@Succulent of your garden
With the risk of others using it as an easier entry point into Arch Linux

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while true; do mount /dev/close2zero /mnt/clarity; done

Succulent of your garden

Member

From: Majestic kingdom of pot plants

Registered: 2024-02-29

Posts: 862

Re: Moving on from x11

With the risk of others breaking their system more easily

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str( @soyg ) == str( @potplant ) btw!