linux' effects on microsoft

im_ka · 2004-04-01 12:55:53

linux is gaining space. more and more governments (israel, germany, italy,...) decide to switch to open source. more and more home users choose linux, and unix is clearly the better system for servers. my university's (vienna) server is unix based too, and there are many more.

how is this competition gonna effect ms? will they get even more agressive? are they gonna make cheaper, better, etc. products?

i've seen ms ads on websites (linking to a "study") saying that using windows is cheaper then using linux when regarding overall costs

sweiss · 2004-04-01 13:36:49

I think Linux is still a little behind when the Desktop is concerned.

wakeupbomb · 2004-04-01 14:15:43

well, Linux does appear to be getting more users. But it is never gonna affect Microsoft in the home desktop market unless PC manufacturers start giving the choice between either Windows or a Linux Distro when you buy your PC. As the majority of PC users stick with what they are given with.
When you can go into Dixons or Comet and buy a Linux installed desktop PC will be the best sign of progress.
...
I usually don't comment in these discussions...

I read somewhere about MS and its shared source thingy, which seems like they are tryna compete in some way or another. They will probably cut the price of XP at some point...maybe
but well, I know nothing about anything outside the world of literature, so I shouldn't be saying anything...
moo

Dusty · 2004-04-01 15:37:08

I should know better than to comment too, but I don't.

I think it makes no difference whether Linux competes with Microsoft, or whether it becomes the dominant X OS (X E {desktop, server, workstation, business, home user...}) in the world. Linux isn't about marketing; its about choice. If people want an alternative to Microsoft, they'll find it. If they're happy with the OS that comes with their computer, they'll use it.

It isn't our job (as open source community of users or developers) to make Linux a business product. Its our job (as developers) to make it as good as possible. Its our job (as users) to submit bug reports, documentation, and other feedback. Its our job (as friends) to ensure that our friends know they have the option to use it and to help them install it if they need it.

Dusty

im_ka · 2004-04-01 19:03:17

they're selling pc's with suse preinstalled in austria. and they're much cheaper.

yea it's true that linux is not there to beat ms, but ms users can/could be better off if there's competition.

srey · 2004-04-01 19:29:56

Wal-Mart, here in the US, just announced that they will be selling cheap (from $200-$600) PCs with Sun's Java Desktop System pre-installed. They used to also sell PCs with Lindows pre-installed, not sure if they still do that.

RTF · 2004-05-02 08:07:22

Linux is ready for me...I'm probably 90% happy with my desktop, my apps, and my config. The remaining 10% is the bits I left behind from Windows or haven't quite got sorted yet(new user here). It's not ready for everyone, but in a few years, it will be I'm sure

kakabaratruskia · 2004-05-02 17:59:50

Dusty wrote:

I should know better than to comment too, but I don't.
I think it makes no difference whether Linux competes with Microsoft, or whether it becomes the dominant X OS (X E {desktop, server, workstation, business, home user...}) in the world. Linux isn't about marketing; its about choice. If people want an alternative to Microsoft, they'll find it. If they're happy with the OS that comes with their computer, they'll use it.
It isn't our job (as open source community of users or developers) to make Linux a business product. Its our job (as developers) to make it as good as possible. Its our job (as users) to submit bug reports, documentation, and other feedback. Its our job (as friends) to ensure that our friends know they have the option to use it and to help them install it if they need it.
Dusty

Thank good zealots are not here. In another chilean forum, I suggested this, about microsoft, and everyone said I was stupid, and that linux was the only way to go, everyone that used windows was dumb.

zeppelin · 2004-05-02 23:06:04

most users nowadays have first usage on Microsoft Windows.
and they find it difficult, but in the end the know it.

if a n00b starts with MDK/REHAT/SUSE/MEPIS then he CAN works with GNU/Linux systems.

but if you talk to him [and he has previously hard time trying to learn windows] he will think: "oh not again... I'll stick with Windows."

that's why LiveCDs are important. and projects that bring FreeSW to the windows platform [GNUWINII, OpenCD, and whole lotta GPL programs like DevC++]

of course, if someone comes and tells me I want to start with computers. I would install him Mepis or Mandrake.
the ONLY difference to him is that it's not called Start or Microsoft Windows.
if one could compare the time for n00bs to be sure they know the basic of Windows and the time to know the basic of Mandrake, I think the latter would be 1 week or 2 weeks longer.

that's all.

ps. I could be wrong. But I don't think so.
for new starters, Windows even clicking with the mouse is bizzar.

so the point is the first contact with Computers!!
it's a matter of human psychology. and Microsoft knows that

mcubednyc · 2004-05-03 16:32:13

For me the biggest advantage Windows has currently is the vast amount of software available for it. That's not to say there isn't a vast amount of software available for Linux & the *BSDs as well, but a great deal of the latter is different software, and it isn't necessarily as easy to use or master.

Some months ago, even before trying any Linux distros, I made a conscious effort to replace almost all closed-source apps I used under Windows with open-source equivalents. For the most part, this was relatively painless. There are excellent open-source apps for almost any common task available on Windows, and more to the point, they are as easy to use and feature-rich as commercial software or non-commercial, proprietary freeware. "Easy to use" is, of course, a judgement call -- and zeppelin's point about being familiar with how to use Windows pertains. But if you are familiar with using Windows, then it is painless to support open-source development, even if only by being part of the user community, if you are inclined to do so. And in many cases, you will end up using the best tool available for the job anyway, because many of the OSS options available on Windows are the best tools available on Windows operating systems.

Unfortunately, many of these OSS apps haven't been ported to other operating systems. I was actually kind of surprised (and discouraged) to realize how many were Windows-only, once I did decide to give Linux a shot. And I think that's the issue that will remain kind-of a stumbling block for widespread Linux adoption. The majority of computer users usually aren't wedded to an OS, necessarily, but they are more likely to be wedded to particular pieces of software that they use often. If that software won't run on Linux, that makes it harder to switch. You have to find something that fills that function, you have to learn how it works, and you have to like it. There are many Linux apps that are similar enough (not to mention those that are x-platform), but there are quite a few gaping holes where there's just no more-or-less exact equivalent (which might mean you have to replace, say, one app with two, or two with three, and rethink how you manage certain tasks), or where equivalents that are close enough in function are radically different in operation or appearance. That means a bigger learning curve. In the end, you might be better off, you might end up liking new ways better. But it's not easy, so you have to be motivated.

kakabaratruskia · 2004-05-30 08:01:24

Dusty wrote:

I should know better than to comment too, but I don't.
I think it makes no difference whether Linux competes with Microsoft, or whether it becomes the dominant X OS (X E {desktop, server, workstation, business, home user...}) in the world. Linux isn't about marketing; its about choice. If people want an alternative to Microsoft, they'll find it. If they're happy with the OS that comes with their computer, they'll use it.
It isn't our job (as open source community of users or developers) to make Linux a business product. Its our job (as developers) to make it as good as possible. Its our job (as users) to submit bug reports, documentation, and other feedback. Its our job (as friends) to ensure that our friends know they have the option to use it and to help them install it if they need it.
Dusty

I think the problem with this, is that right now, Linux has recieved financial help from many companies, that want to beat microsoft in the OS market (specially IBM). If this companies didn't invest as they do in Linux, because the will never beat microsoft, and because they're not interested in giving people choices, but in making money, Linux development would be a lot slower (just think of BSD, that supports less harware [even though it has also beneficiated from Linux growth , mainly with the desktop development). I think it's important that linux becomes economically viable.

mcubednyc · 2004-05-30 11:37:07

oneearth wrote:

I have to agree with mcubednyc

We need more of that around here. 8) Welcome to the board!

oneearth wrote:

If I can get Arch Linux to run similar applications that I am used to running on my Windows partition and not be too buggy, then I will be installing Arch Linux on as many friends' computers as I can. I am in my circle of friends, the computer guy, so I can have an definite (albeit small perhaps) influence on increasing Linux's presence on the desktop.
Anyone care to support/help me in this?

It's somewhat scary, but believe it or not I'm the "computer guy" in my circle of friends as well, which says more about the tech-impaired circle I travel in than about my computer skills. Most of the people who ask me for computer help/advice are on AOL, some have "advanced" as far as MSN. I won't be converting any of them to Linux anytime soon, but I do consider it a victory when I get them to try mozilla/firefox/thunderbird, OO.org, foobar2000, Media Player Classic, or some such open-source alternatives to the worst of the junk bundled with Windows. I just got a friend who, until last month, worked for AOL (non-tech position) to use tbird/firefox and OO.org. He has a cable connection at home from RoadRunner, but always used the AOL interface anyway because it was free -- now that he's no longer working for them, he was going to start paying the "bring your own access" membership to keep AOL, until I convinced him he didn't really need it. A major score!

So your ambitions are way beyond mine, and while I applaud them, I hope you aren't over-reaching.

xerxes2 · 2004-06-01 19:00:28

MS is already out of the way. They still got the cash to keep running for a while but they will fall. :evil:

Dusty · 2004-06-01 19:36:19

xerxes2 wrote:

MS is already out of the way. They still got the cash to keep running for a while but they will fall. :evil:

I don't know if they will fall... Look at IBM, they were the big evil last time, now their the good guys.

Its possible MS will almost fall and them some benefactor (RMS, perhaps. :-D) will become president and turn Microsoft around.

Actually, Microsoft is kind of a neat name for software development... It would be nice to have them on our side.

Dusty

xerxes2 · 2004-06-01 20:36:22

He he he he he..you really got great ideas sometimes Dusty.
You should bet a few dollars on that RMS will be MS president in 5 years time. The odds will be high.
I'm no real Linux zealot myself but I'm much anti MS. MS is evil. :evil: :evil:
A little idea hit me first time over two years ago,that MS will do a GPL/BSD distro. They are shameless enough to do it. :shock:
Now we got Novell,RH,MDK and a few more so this monopoly situation will hopefully never happened again.
I personally hope that Linux don't take all. BSD's and maybe some other project could gain momentum if someone(big player) gave it a chance.

sarah31 · 2004-06-01 20:41:31

personally while i don't like windows i cannot see it and MS getting pushed out of their lion's share of the market any time soon. remember most people are lazy and just want to point and click and linux just is not that care free as of yet. not to mention with all the gamers out there still buying windows only games and running them through an emulator there is not reason for companies to produce linux only software. the same goes for hardware. as long as people keep supporting companies that only support MS then MS will survive.

kakabaratruskia · 2004-06-01 21:02:22

sarah31 wrote:

...remember most people are lazy and just want to point and click..

I don't think it's a problem of lazyness(?), I think it's a matter of interests. Why would you have to care at all about computers if there's a lot of other stuff. There are lot's of history ,science, math, art, etc that you can also spend you're time. If you wan't the computer just to do something but don't care how is it being done, windows works fine (probably could be better, and this is where I think Linux is important). Linux is perfect for me, cause I like computers, but maybe it's not perfect for everyone (if it becomes to windowy [reality hider ], I probably wouldn't use it). I like what is happening with linux, cause gives Microsoft competence, and they just can't start/keep doing bad software.

Dusty · 2004-06-01 21:08:40

sarah31 wrote:

remember most people are lazy and just want to point and click and linux just is not that care free as of yet.

Ok, could somebody explain this to me? Sarah is right here (as always), most people just want to point and click, and I think its because they are lazy. The thing I don't understand is how lazy people can want to point and click! Point and click is time consuming and a lot of work, really, compared to pressing a key (now I'm talking about pressing a key, and not about typing, which takes skill). Why oh why do people get so hung up on mice!?

Look at a newbie trying to learn to use a mouse, its painful to watch... why do people like them so much!?

Dusty

Zephirias · 2004-06-01 22:18:35

Dusty wrote:

sarah31 wrote:
remember most people are lazy and just want to point and click and linux just is not that care free as of yet.
Ok, could somebody explain this to me? Sarah is right here (as always), most people just want to point and click, and I think its because they are lazy. The thing I don't understand is how lazy people can want to point and click! Point and click is time consuming and a lot of work, really, compared to pressing a key (now I'm talking about pressing a key, and not about typing, which takes skill). Why oh why do people get so hung up on mice!?
Look at a newbie trying to learn to use a mouse, its painful to watch... why do people like them so much!?
Dusty

Not to mention that it can give you carpel tunnel syndrome...I felt like I almost got a light case of it sometime last year before I got really active with Linux...now that I use the keyboard more, I don't pains in my hand at all.

xerxes2 · 2004-06-02 23:15:25

Cmo'n now sarah31 and Dusty..you could not just bunch together all other people that are not full time geeks like yourself and say that they are lazy :evil: :evil:
Listen to what our intelligent chilean friend is saying, i agree 100%. It is not so easy for all people to read or write, remember commands that you are not using so often is even worse. This is not stupidity or lazyness it's just the way it is.
Besides, wasn't it a swede who invented the mouse, maybe we are a lazy nation then. Or maybe he invented it to sell to other lazy continents.
Edit: A few years ago I gave a lift to a chilenean guy in Sweden. He said that Chile is a beutiful country if you just stay out of Santiago, really bad smog. He he ..he was from Santiago.

Dusty · 2004-06-03 00:42:23

xerxes2 wrote:

Cmo'n now sarah31 and Dusty..you could not just bunch together all other people that are not full time geeks like yourself and say that they are lazy

What are you talking about? Sarah *is* Lazy. She's proud of it. She's so lazy she can't even go to the trouble of finding an avatar of a three toed sloth!

Besides, I believe point and click is physically *more* work than typing. Of course, mental faculties are taxed more by CLI (remembering commands, names of files, commandline options, etc). But that could be redesigned to work better without going to the crummy desktop metaphor.

ACoder is going to be posting soon because he's on my side with the crummy desktop metaphor thing...

Hmmm... what about a User Interface based on Swiss cheese?

Dusty

sarah31 · 2004-06-03 06:05:22

I could respond but ...

dpb · 2004-06-03 06:07:38

sarah31 wrote:

I could respond but ...

Hey.
Dusty was quite right. sarah31 is too lazy to even respond to that.

colnago · 2004-06-03 06:50:16

xerxes2 wrote:
MS is already out of the way. They still got the cash to keep running for a while but they will fall.

Yeah, their stuff is really dated at the moment and their response time is longer than Debian and w/o the stability.

Dusty · 2004-06-03 15:07:18

sarah31 wrote:

I could respond but ...

Don't worry, I'll keep sticking up for you!

Arch Linux

#1 2004-04-01 12:55:53

linux' effects on microsoft

#2 2004-04-01 13:36:49

Re: linux' effects on microsoft

#3 2004-04-01 14:15:43

Re: linux' effects on microsoft

#4 2004-04-01 15:37:08

Re: linux' effects on microsoft

#5 2004-04-01 19:03:17

Re: linux' effects on microsoft

#6 2004-04-01 19:29:56

Re: linux' effects on microsoft

#7 2004-05-02 08:07:22

Re: linux' effects on microsoft

#8 2004-05-02 17:59:50

Re: linux' effects on microsoft

#9 2004-05-02 23:06:04

Re: linux' effects on microsoft

#10 2004-05-03 16:32:13

Re: linux' effects on microsoft

#11 2004-05-30 08:01:24

Re: linux' effects on microsoft

#12 2004-05-30 11:37:07

Re: linux' effects on microsoft

#13 2004-06-01 19:00:28

Re: linux' effects on microsoft

#14 2004-06-01 19:36:19

Re: linux' effects on microsoft

#15 2004-06-01 20:36:22

Re: linux' effects on microsoft

#16 2004-06-01 20:41:31

Re: linux' effects on microsoft

#17 2004-06-01 21:02:22

Re: linux' effects on microsoft

#18 2004-06-01 21:08:40

Re: linux' effects on microsoft

#19 2004-06-01 22:18:35

Re: linux' effects on microsoft

#20 2004-06-02 23:15:25

Re: linux' effects on microsoft

#21 2004-06-03 00:42:23

Re: linux' effects on microsoft

#22 2004-06-03 06:05:22

Re: linux' effects on microsoft

#23 2004-06-03 06:07:38

Re: linux' effects on microsoft

#24 2004-06-03 06:50:16

Re: linux' effects on microsoft

#25 2004-06-03 15:07:18

Re: linux' effects on microsoft

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