Have you found the beginner's guide in the wiki useful?

Misfit138 · 2007-10-09 04:34:17

There is a wiki overhaul underway, and I fear that the beginner's guide may be scrapped in favor of a completely new one.
Thread here: http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php? … 68#p287768
If this is to happen, then I hope it is for the best.
What I would like to say is simply this:
Freigeist put forth an amazing effort to start and complete the guide, and I have spent countless hours updating and improving it.
I would simply ask that if the Beginner's Guide has helped you, or if you find it a useful reference, please state your opinion in the quoted thread above.
I want what's best for Arch and its community, and I thought the overall opinion of the Beginner's Guide was quite good, based on comments here in the Newbie Corner.
It would be a shame, IMO for it to be scrapped, but if I am in the minority, then I suppose the needs of the many must outweigh the needs of the few.

fwojciec · 2007-10-09 04:47:16

Misfit138 - I've read that post in the Wiki overhaul thread earlier today and, IMO, CocoAUS is *way* out of line with what he had written. I though that toofishes answered him well though - if he really hates the Beginner's Guide so much let him write a new one instead of writing a litany of complaints the way he did.

It was just a thoughtless post by CocoAus, I think - I don't think he understands the amount of effort required to write a guide like this.

Last edited by fwojciec (2007-10-09 05:14:58)

CocoAUS · 2007-10-09 05:56:52

Out of line? Input is out of line?

I used the guide, and I found it lacking in many respects. My tone was completely respectful and I didn't mean anything other than honest hope for a better guide. In fact, if you'd check back in that thread, you'll note that I just left a comment about how much I do respect the amount of work that went into the guide.

It's interesting to note that both of you seem to be focusing on the amount of work that goes into producing a guide:

fwojciec wrote:

I don't think he understands the amount of effort required to write a guide like this.

Misfit138 wrote:

Freigeist put forth an amazing effort to start and complete the guide, and I have spent countless hours updating and improving it.

You can put a lifetime of work into building a house, but if its walls won't support themselves, what good is it? It's a shame to see that work go to waste, but that's all--a shame. It doesn't change the fact that someone looking for a house should look elsewhere. I don't mean to be demeaning towards the guide, but an extreme example such as that should at least illustrate the point.

I, as an Arch user, hope to see the young distro get off on the right foot. It is not out of line for me to voice my opinion in a respectful manner, and I will not apologize for wanting a better guide.

By the way, asking for people to speak up who found the guide acceptable is not a very scientific way to determine exactly how helpful it is. I hope I don't need to explain the numerous problems with such a method.

adlucem · 2007-10-09 06:29:56

I found CocoAUS suggestions in the other thread sensible. But maybe they are more targeted at a guide for linux beginners installing Arch??
Whereas it would be more coherent for the "official" beginner's guide to target intermediate linux users installing Arch??

KimTjik · 2007-10-09 09:12:33

First I'll admit that I didn't use the "Beginners guide". I've followed the Arch project for a long time before I installed it and used the "Official Arch Linux Install Guide" and "Xorg7". Nevertheless when now looking through the guide in question I see it has a place and could be useful, because it gives you an overview of the correct methodology and order. Of course, everything has place for improvements, including "Beginners guide", but that doesn't negate its place.

The only valid defense for writing "I still think the Beginner's guide sucks" is to first present a better alternative, still I can't grasp the state of mind when you view such statements as "respectful". CocoAUS, you've done it the other way around: without any credentials to whether you actually can contribute to the project constructively.

Now to one of the arguments:

[*] Focus on getting users into a usable desktop environment
...
[*] Leave the extras out. As great as cpu frequency scaling might be, it's not at all necessary to get a beginner into a usable environment.

You don't reach a useful desktop environment before following the steps in the guide. OK, you could argue that "CPU frequency scaling" is an extra, so it could simply be omitted with the useful link still present. Besides that it more looks to me as a issue dealing with the idea behind Arch, or about wording; maybe exchange some explanations in favor of links. The guide has the following link: http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/The_Arch_Way which sums up how to "get off on the right foot" the Arch way.

Much ado for nothing. Cooperation is a lot better. Why not first present what you have to offer, or volunteer to help Misfit138? If you're talented the guide could very well be improved to more efficiently guide a beginner through the process.

When we'll see your contribution CocoAUS, let's then judge what sucks most!

Last edited by KimTjik (2007-10-09 09:14:45)

Mikko777 · 2007-10-09 09:16:02

adlucem wrote:

I found CocoAUS suggestions in the other thread sensible. But maybe they are more targeted at a guide for linux beginners installing Arch??
Whereas it would be more coherent for the "official" beginner's guide to target intermediate linux users installing Arch??

+1
Beginners guide rocks.
(I use it as a checklist, with new installations, having already read the whole wiki its easy and fast to install with that to check that everything gets done)

Indeed it was discussed that the guide should be a short overview of an arch instal/ linux system not a complete installation guide. (links to other pages -->)

But by all means improve the wiki and beginners guide if you can

And cocoaus' suggestions seem to be pretty much already implemented in the guide, but if he can finetune it even more without loosing functionality... go ahead

Last edited by Mikko777 (2007-10-09 09:19:29)

cucullus · 2007-10-09 09:23:50

Beginners guide is nice, but it should be modularized. The first guide's goal -- explane system installation and obtaining DE. All tuning, beatifications and tools-utils setup should be posted as links.

It seems to me, that guide must have a huge list of links to related articles.

Last edited by cucullus (2007-10-09 09:31:11)

fwojciec · 2007-10-09 14:13:46

KimTjik wrote:

The only valid defense for writing "I still think the Beginner's guide sucks" is to first present a better alternative, still I can't grasp the state of mind when you view such statements as "respectful".

Precisely. That's what I thought was out of line. He seems to have a habit so saying things like "You suck, and your efforts were worthless! - with all due respect." I've seen him do it before to raymano in a thread about FaunOS (http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=37832). WTF?

Last edited by fwojciec (2007-10-09 14:50:45)

phrakture · 2007-10-09 22:02:44

Oh oh! Guess who gets to chime in?

Here's the thing. I'm going to agree with the sentiment from everyone else here. No one was paid for any of this work. It's all done by people who care and are trying to help other people. When people rag on work like that, it depresses me.

See, on the pacman-dev mailing list, we have a saying. It's said with a bit of snark, a bit of vitriol, and I believe it works well here. It works well in most situations where people can easily modify your work, or demonstrate what is wrong instead of sitting on the sidelines and saying "This is bad! Fix it":

Patches welcome.

Dusty · 2007-10-09 22:12:48

This is turning into a thread about whether or not CocoAUS has been out of line. The answer is yes, he has. I've asked him to be more polite in the future, and from the looks of his latest post in the other thread, it looks like he listened. The original question as to whether or not the beginners guide should be scrapped is: no, it should not.

I'm closing this thread.

Dusty

Arch Linux

#1 2007-10-09 04:34:17

Have you found the beginner's guide in the wiki useful?

#2 2007-10-09 04:47:16

Re: Have you found the beginner's guide in the wiki useful?

#3 2007-10-09 05:56:52

Re: Have you found the beginner's guide in the wiki useful?

#4 2007-10-09 06:29:56

Re: Have you found the beginner's guide in the wiki useful?

#5 2007-10-09 09:12:33

Re: Have you found the beginner's guide in the wiki useful?

#6 2007-10-09 09:16:02

Re: Have you found the beginner's guide in the wiki useful?

#7 2007-10-09 09:23:50

Re: Have you found the beginner's guide in the wiki useful?

#8 2007-10-09 14:13:46

Re: Have you found the beginner's guide in the wiki useful?

#9 2007-10-09 22:02:44

Re: Have you found the beginner's guide in the wiki useful?

#10 2007-10-09 22:12:48

Re: Have you found the beginner's guide in the wiki useful?

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