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#1 2007-10-30 12:24:11

foxbunny
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From: Serbia
Registered: 2006-10-31
Posts: 759
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Can developers submit logos in the contest?

Do you think it is appropriate that a developer submits a concept in the ongoing contest?

Please +1 if you think it is *appropriate*.

Please -1 if you think it is not.

Please 0 if you think it should be decided by developers.

Also, please explain why.

Last edited by foxbunny (2007-10-30 12:42:38)

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#2 2007-10-30 12:27:57

foxbunny
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From: Serbia
Registered: 2006-10-31
Posts: 759
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Re: Can developers submit logos in the contest?

0 from me

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#3 2007-10-30 12:30:01

iphitus
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From: Melbourne, Australia
Registered: 2004-10-09
Posts: 4,927

Re: Can developers submit logos in the contest?

I did say discussion, not poll. A poll doesnt really promote thought or explanation of opinion.

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#4 2007-10-30 12:31:55

Cerebral
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From: Waterloo, ON, CA
Registered: 2005-04-08
Posts: 3,108
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Re: Can developers submit logos in the contest?

I'm a +1 or a 0 - both mean the same to me since I'm a dev. big_smile

Also: I think there's merit for more discussion on this point than a simple +1/-1/0.  In my opinion, the dev team is a stand-up group of guys that I would trust with the decision, regardless of who submitted the logo.  I'd expect us all to vote for those we think would best represent Arch from this point onward, with no consideration to who the author actually is.

If iphitus submits a crap logo, we're certainly not going to vote for it, for example.  In fact, we may give him a good ribbing for it too - "Dude, yours looks like it was crayon'd by a 4-year-old!  Ka-hyuk!"  Heh.

Anyway, my thoughts aside, I'd love to hear the community's take on this issue as well - it's a good point that I overlooked drafting up the rules of the contest.

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#5 2007-10-30 12:42:00

foxbunny
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From: Serbia
Registered: 2006-10-31
Posts: 759
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Re: Can developers submit logos in the contest?

I didn't say you may not discuss... smile I just didn't say anything before because I already said what I wanted to say in the original discussion.

Anyway, there is an issue of conflict of interests, as a dev who submits his work may be too graphically involved and show bias towards work that are close to what he did... Also, one vote 'wasted' on his work, which is a minor issue, since devs can vote multiple times, afaik. OTOH, I don't know the devs that well myself, so that is only a possibility, not something that I think will happen.

Therefore, I think it should be decided by the people who know each other better: 0. (I'll be happy whichevery way this swings)

On another note, I thought this was going to be a community's gift, so to speak, to the developers. Something that the non-dev community will do by itself in order to contribute.

Last edited by foxbunny (2007-10-30 12:46:14)

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#6 2007-10-30 12:49:02

Doehni
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 2007-05-19
Posts: 175

Re: Can developers submit logos in the contest?

+1 for me, why shouldn't they be able to take part? Why should the guys who bring us the best linux distibution out there not be able to give us the best logo? wink

The more people take part in the competition the bigger chiose exists in the end. And isn't Arch all about choise? wink

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#7 2007-10-30 12:51:31

.:B:.
Forum Fellow
Registered: 2006-11-26
Posts: 5,819

Re: Can developers submit logos in the contest?

Developers are people like everyone. They should be able to submit too. However, in the end, a developer's submission should not get chosen because it was designed by a developer, it should be chosen because it was the best submission.

To enhance impartiality I'd suggest developers don't actively 'promo' their own stuff, at least not among their peers.

Last edited by B (2007-10-30 12:52:09)


Got Leenucks? :: Arch: Power in simplicity :: Get Counted! Registered Linux User #392717 :: Blog thingy

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#8 2007-10-30 12:54:31

foxbunny
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From: Serbia
Registered: 2006-10-31
Posts: 759
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Re: Can developers submit logos in the contest?

B wrote:

To enhance impartiality I'd suggest developers don't actively 'promo' their own stuff, at least not among their peers.

Yes, you summed it up nicely. wink

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#9 2007-10-30 13:00:49

cerise
Member
From: gondwanaland
Registered: 2006-10-28
Posts: 125

Re: Can developers submit logos in the contest?

I have a small issue with the perception of the arrangement for allowing developers to enter into a community competition that will also be judged by the aforementioned developers.

Regardless of how ethical and upfront the developers are, if, in fact, a developer's entry were chosen, would the community think, perhaps, it was because of the fact that the person was a developer -- rather than the strength of the design?  I think the perception of a 'fair' competition could be damaged by even the entries of developers.

This is much of the same reasoning behind not letting developers play competitively in the MMORPG games they create; it would damage the credibility that the game is 'fair' to anyone that wants to play.

I mean no disrespect toward any developer -- I honestly doubt any would take a poorly designed logo drawn by a colleague versus a better logo drawn by a community member, I merely want to point out that the perception of impropriety could be considerable.

I believe the right people are making the decision as far as which logo is chosen.  With that being said, no choice will please all people, and even the hint of an idea that a design was chosen because of who the submitter is versus the design itself could very well upset many community members even more.

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#10 2007-10-30 13:02:19

PDExperiment626
Member
From: Australia
Registered: 2007-04-02
Posts: 66

Re: Can developers submit logos in the contest?

First, I believe this is something the devs have to decide amongst themselves.

The issue here isn't whether or not the group of developers will judge fairly. Indeed, all the devs seem like really standup people. The issue here is one of perception (particularly the community perception). If iphitus were to submit and win, then the question of his submission being truly the best will always be questioned within the community. The fact is, most of the community do not have any feel for how many devs they are, what their personalities are like, much less if they are truly beyond nepotist tendencies. I feel that in the event of iphitus winning the competition, the bond between the devs and community could suffer.

The reason why I believe that the devs should be making this call (and not the community) is that a community discussion could potentially be misleading. It's a funny thing how everyone will say they don't have a problem with the POTENTIAL of a certain situation, but then get in an uproar when said situation comes to fruition.

It is an unfortunate that Iphitus didn't put forth an idea before the competition was called because rules could have been laid out to accommodate a submission that was already put forward. Making rules now to accommodate such a submission--after the competition starting--will most likely be viewed as nepotist by some in the community. Again, if devs had their own ideas about logos, they should have decided yes or no on those concepts before opening up a community contest where only the devs vote on the winner.

I believe that is good that only the devs are voting on the logo (for reasons I've put forth in other posts). I also believe the devs are the ones who need to make it clear what the rules for this contest are. I am not going to put forth this 0/1 rating; I want the devs to decide what the rules are for this contest so there isn't endless amount of bickering on the forums regarding this.

What it comes down to is this: is it worth allowing for dev submissions--at this stage of the contest--knowing that it could be potentially damaging to the dev-community bond?

Last edited by PDExperiment626 (2007-10-30 13:04:19)


... and for a time, it was good...

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#11 2007-10-30 13:11:10

dunc
Member
From: Glasgow, UK
Registered: 2007-06-18
Posts: 556

Re: Can developers submit logos in the contest?

I don't see why not, as long as a dev can't vote for his own design. I would hope that the rest of them are trustworthy enough not to gang up against the community, and will vote for the one they genuinely prefer.

It might have been a good idea to work out a way of making submissions anonymous though, to avoid any suspicion of favoritism. But then, since so many logos were posted to the threads here already, it was probably too late for that anyway.


0 Ok, 0:1

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#12 2007-10-30 13:13:18

Cerebral
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From: Waterloo, ON, CA
Registered: 2005-04-08
Posts: 3,108
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Re: Can developers submit logos in the contest?

dunc wrote:

It might have been a good idea to work out a way of making submissions anonymous though, to avoid any suspicion of favoritism. But then, since so many logos were posted to the threads here already, it was probably too late for that anyway.

Yeah, I was thinking that myself just after this was brought up - I should have anonymized the submissions before posting them to the forum.  Of course, there is the issue that people have been posting their logo concepts long before the contest was started (or even conceived!), and any attempt to anonymize stuff would have only been half-successful.

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#13 2007-10-30 13:15:47

Dusty
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From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 2004-01-18
Posts: 5,986
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Re: Can developers submit logos in the contest?

I think this is ridiculous.I hate it when this "us vs them" mentality comes up regarding any aspect of Arch development. In anything else the developers do, we trust them to package cleanly, release promptly, maintain accurately, test thoroughly, and everything else associated with the job the volunteer to do. I would trust the developers to come up with a great logo without *any* input from the community whatsoever. The fact that they've opened it up to the community makes it even more likely we'll get a better logo. In the worst case, if the devs all show favouratism towards a developer-designed logo, this is what we would have gotten without this competition, and nothing is lost.

"Winning" such a competition is not meant to bestow glory on the winner... Its meant to improve the look and feel of the Arch Linux site and product. The artist is not being evaluated, the logo is.

Your devs and trusted users are nothing special. They're Arch community members the same as each of you. The only difference is they've been contributing more time and effort to this project. Respect that.

Dusty

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#14 2007-10-30 13:32:55

PDExperiment626
Member
From: Australia
Registered: 2007-04-02
Posts: 66

Re: Can developers submit logos in the contest?

This has nothing to do with respecting devs; that's even contrary to my posts asking the devs to make the decisions pertaining to the rules of the contest. I trust their judgment.

The fact is there IS a difference between devs and community users in this particular situation. The devs are the ones who called this contest. It doesn't matter if it was due to community pressure, the devs are perfectly able to say they would not hold such a contest. Yet they decided to put a contest forward anyway. The devs are the ones calling the shots in this contest; they are the ones deciding the logo. Again, with this contest, the devs ARE different than community members by the rules they have laid down. If there were no difference, then everyone would be voting on the logo. Don't blame the community for consequences of dev decisions.

I like that only the devs are the only ones voting on the logo. I like the fact they have made a contest to get the community involved. I don't like that now there is a potential for a serious conflict of interest. This WILL hurt people getting motivated to submitting designs; and thus, arch may very well loose out the best logo it could have received. It is unfortunate that arch may lose out on the dev input; but again, that is a result of a dev decision not to lay out criterion for anonymous submissions.

Dusty wrote:

Your devs and trusted users are nothing special. They're Arch community members the same as each of you. The only difference is they've been contributing more time and effort to this project. Respect that.
Dusty

I think it's a mistake to assume that just because a person isn't a dev or a TU means they don't put in as much time into arch as those who are. How can you tell how much time someone spends on say, developing a logo for a contest, making packages for the aur or whatever? Not everyone who contributes heavily to arch seeks to become a TU or dev. The fact that you are demanding respect for the devs as those who spend more time on arch indicates that, in fact, you don't see devs and community members as equals.

Last edited by PDExperiment626 (2007-10-30 13:54:16)


... and for a time, it was good...

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#15 2007-10-30 13:45:04

foxbunny
Member
From: Serbia
Registered: 2006-10-31
Posts: 759
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Re: Can developers submit logos in the contest?

I agree. Especially if you look at titles such as 'Trusted Users', which suggests that other users are not (at least certified to be) trustworthy. And devs have more access than TUs, so that makes them super-trusted. smile I think, it works something like that on the subconscious level at least. Devs are indeed superheroes. Wooooosh! big_smile

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#16 2007-10-30 13:51:43

Cerebral
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From: Waterloo, ON, CA
Registered: 2005-04-08
Posts: 3,108
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Re: Can developers submit logos in the contest?

PDExperiment626 wrote:

It is unfortunate that arch may loose out on the dev input; but again, that is a result of a dev decision not to lay out criterion for anonymous submissions.

Well, as I mentioned in my post, by the time we had even decided to have a contest, a good number of the submissions were already posted elsewhere on the forums - making them anonymous for the contest itself would have been ineffectual - people would be able to look at Thayer's or foxbunny's or freigeist's logos and say "Hey, that's so-and-so's" whether or not I took the name off the submission sheet. 

Then, that would lean the contest unfairly, with some submissions being truly anonymous, while others pretend to be anonymous, but everyone really knows whose it is.

While I should have thought about making it anonymous from the get-go, in hindsight that wouldn't have worked.

-edit-

In any case, you do bring up good points - as trustworthy as we feel the devs are, this introduces a potential clash between devs and community that I just don't like... but I don't want to exclude iphitus and his enthusiasm for the contest.

Essentially, a decision needs to be made and stuck-to.  We're already discussing it on the dev mailing list.

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#17 2007-10-30 13:56:39

PJ
Member
From: Sweden
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 602

Re: Can developers submit logos in the contest?

+1
The developers are IMO community members like the rest of us are. Questioning if the developers really should be allowed to contribute with a proposal for a new logo is like questioning if the developers really can chose the new logo. If they could chose a new logo then I think they could and really should contribute with a proposal for a new logo if they have a great suggestion for it.

I really hate this "us vs them" mentality.

This really is a nonissue.

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#18 2007-10-30 13:58:37

.:B:.
Forum Fellow
Registered: 2006-11-26
Posts: 5,819

Re: Can developers submit logos in the contest?

How about a community preselection? You present all submissions, the community has their say in which go to the 'final round', there the devs decide which one gets picked.

In addition, a preselection would also show how much support there is for the logo(es) in question.

I don't see it as "us vs. them". In the end, we're all people - i.e. we have flaws. We all like Arch, and whether you're a dev or just a regular user that nobody ever noticed before, you want your logo to be picked. Some might want that worse than others. Anyway, this is just speculation, not incrimination.

Last edited by B (2007-10-30 14:04:03)


Got Leenucks? :: Arch: Power in simplicity :: Get Counted! Registered Linux User #392717 :: Blog thingy

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#19 2007-10-30 13:58:39

Allan
Developer
From: Brisbane, AU
Registered: 2007-06-09
Posts: 10,406
Website

Re: Can developers submit logos in the contest?

+1 - I can hardly see a group of unpaid(?) devs showing great favouritism here. They put there time into the distro and want what is best for it.  If a devs design happens to be the best, so be it...

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#20 2007-10-30 13:59:36

PDExperiment626
Member
From: Australia
Registered: 2007-04-02
Posts: 66

Re: Can developers submit logos in the contest?

@cerebral

I think you creating the contest was an excellent idea. No one expects you to have perfect foresight; this is a situation that few would have seen coming. IMHO, you're doing an awesome job; and I appreciate your efforts.

I just don't like the community being accused of instigating a divide between devs and community for a situation that the community didn't create.


... and for a time, it was good...

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#21 2007-10-30 14:00:42

Dusty
Schwag Merchant
From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 2004-01-18
Posts: 5,986
Website

Re: Can developers submit logos in the contest?

I meant to make it more clear: This is about Arch *identity*. Not about fairness or winning. If you trust the devs to make the right decision, you can trust them to make it regardless of who submitted what.

If you want a purely democratic process, you may be better off with Debian -- Arch development has always been more about having a productive process. Its not always fair, but it is effective, for a given definition of effective. That definition being "the people that choose to use Arch tend to consider its development process effective".

At any rate, the contest has been called, the rules have been laid out, and the results will be tallied. There's not much point in complaining about the process now.

Dusty

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#22 2007-10-30 14:03:59

cerise
Member
From: gondwanaland
Registered: 2006-10-28
Posts: 125

Re: Can developers submit logos in the contest?

Cerebral wrote:

In any case, you do bring up good points - as trustworthy as we feel the devs are, this introduces a potential clash between devs and community that I just don't like... but I don't want to exclude iphitus and his enthusiasm for the contest.

Essentially, a decision needs to be made and stuck-to.  We're already discussing it on the dev mailing list.

Thank you and iphitus both for listening to the idea that there may be a possible upset in the perception of the competition.

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#23 2007-10-30 14:09:19

Sigi
Member
From: Thurgau, Switzerland
Registered: 2005-09-22
Posts: 1,121

Re: Can developers submit logos in the contest?

Doehni wrote:

+1 for me, why shouldn't they be able to take part? Why should the guys who bring us the best linux distibution out there not be able to give us the best logo? wink

The more people take part in the competition the bigger chiose exists in the end. And isn't Arch all about choise? wink

I second that! As well as this really is a nonissue - come on guys, give the devs a reasonable amount of designs (and there are already a lot of good concepts out there) and trust on the eyes of the devs. wink


Dammit, haven't been here in a while. Still rocking Arch. smile

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#24 2007-10-30 14:10:44

foxbunny
Member
From: Serbia
Registered: 2006-10-31
Posts: 759
Website

Re: Can developers submit logos in the contest?

Well, Sigi, if devs are okay with that, I see no reason to oppose that. wink

Devs, just make it official, okay? tongue

Last edited by foxbunny (2007-10-30 14:10:59)

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#25 2007-10-30 15:32:17

foxbunny
Member
From: Serbia
Registered: 2006-10-31
Posts: 759
Website

Re: Can developers submit logos in the contest?

Okay, seriously, guys. Especially devs. You need to get a grip on things. (Mostly thanks to me) this logo contest is turning into a bit of chaotic mess. I do apologize to cerise, and pde for all the comments I have made before, and although I still do not agree with you, I acknowledge the pointlessness of arguing in circles.

As for devs, I ask you to please make all the decisions between yourselves, and just inform us of them. There is no need to involve 100+ people in such simple matters as having a dev submit or not submit his artwork. Use your best judgment, and do not open pointless discussions (even though I opened this one, which I regret now). Please. Some people obviously agree, but then some people don't. It is precisely in times like this that a dev should put his feed down and make a decision. If you need to capture the general mood of the community, open a poll.

I apologize in advance if this sounded a bit harsh or something like that, but I really do mean it.

Last edited by foxbunny (2007-10-30 15:33:49)

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