New Xorg bad

jaideep_jdof · 2007-11-06 07:19:22

It seems new xorg 7.3 is breaking my system here and there .

1) My mouse has stopped working:http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=39494
2) Java applications not working http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=39523

This gives me a feeling that archlinux is sacrificing quality in the name of bleeding edge.:(

mykey · 2007-11-06 08:06:54

There is more stuff that is not working - just downgrade for the time being - in archlinux things like this happen realy rarely compared to other distros - I am confident that the devs are already busy correcting the problems and I still constantly enjoy bleeding edge

jaideep_jdof · 2007-11-06 08:44:26

As the problems are not major, so i will stick with the new version.

brain0 · 2007-11-06 12:26:37

jaideep_jdof wrote:

This gives me a feeling that archlinux is sacrificing quality in the name of bleeding edge.:(

The new version has been in the testing repository for months, all bugs reported have been fixed.

LiFo2 · 2007-11-06 12:55:53

I agree, it just means that there isn't enough people using testing repository. Go on, give it a try. It's not that hard to rollback ! You just have to not use pacman -Scc to much

Last edited by LiFo2 (2007-11-06 12:57:23)

Mikko777 · 2007-11-06 13:03:19

brain0 wrote:

jaideep_jdof wrote:
This gives me a feeling that archlinux is sacrificing quality in the name of bleeding edge.:(
The new version has been in the testing repository for months, all bugs reported have been fixed.

Personally i thought that it was common knowledge that xorg still sucked and that you were waiting for better drivers / bugfixes...
Guess i should have whined more and even used bugtracer page ^^

brain0 · 2007-11-06 14:43:47

For all of us who actually used it, it was fine. So, among the Arch devs, it was common knowledge that the new version is fine.

MrWeatherbee · 2007-11-06 15:36:37

brain0 wrote:

For all of us who actually used it, it was fine. So, among the Arch devs, it was common knowledge that the new version is fine.

First: thank you for your work as a developer. I really appreciate it.

Second: The only issue I have encountered thus far after the Xorg upgrade is related to JAVA apps' assertion failures, and the posted workaround seems to be a viable [shot-term] solution until the offending JAVA apps are fixed.

Now, to the meat: your post says that the new version of Xorg (and all related, updated components) is fine per testing done by those who participated in the testing phase. But the upgrade has obviously created an array of issues, even if the issues are not all direct bugs of Xorg (i.e., they may be issues with applications that use Xorg ... though the apps worked with previous Xorg versions), or the issues may "simply" require reconfiguring xorg.conf.

So, with that in mind, do the developers have an obligation to more thoroughly document the potential issues that upgrading may cause? Or is it simply a matter of adopting the philosophy that issues not classified as technically "bugs", even though they may adversely impact users, do not warrant reporting?

These questions are especially relevant when the issues affect such basic PC operations as JAVA applications, video display and input device functionality, all of which must have been encountered and noted during testing. The Arch News bulletin certainly fell short of this reporting:

http://www.archlinux.org/news/363/

X.org 7.3 hits [extra]
After a testing period for over one month we made the decision to move X.org 7.3 to our stable package repositories. Thanks to all the testers and reporters who enabled us to wipe out most of the major issues.
Please note that libgl-dri has been renamed to libgl since the deprecation of libgl-mesa happened a long time ago already. That means people packaging for the AUR should finally get rid of any hard dependencies on libgl-dri or else their packages will be left broken.

That certainly paints a rosier picture than what users encountered after the upgrade. I don't see "beware, lots of JAVA apps will break" or "you may have to learn to configure xorg.conf all over again" in that news release.

So, I'm just curious what your take is on providing a little more information when these big-package upgrades are pushed out so that users can make informed decisions about how to proceed (of course, making backups first is always good ... which I did).

Thanks.

Wauzenplauz · 2007-11-06 16:00:38

On my system the behaviour is even worse.

My laptop uses an ATI Radeon mobility 7500 and when trying to do

pacman -Syu

I all of a sudden was confronted with nvidia drivers installed. Of course this stopped my X-Server. However, even after trying to downgrade to an old version of libgl-dri I had no success.

Trying to install fglrx drivers as a second attempt to rescue my X-Server was of no help.

Thus I currently have a latop without X running and browsing with lynx only is a bit tedious.

Any chance to recover my X?

tia

wonder · 2007-11-06 17:10:25

yeah...

pacman -Rd xcb-proto libxcb libx11 mesa renderproto xf86-input-keyboard xf86-input-mouse xf86-video-vesa xorg-server

and use a outdated mirror to download does packages
one is ftp.iasi.roedu.net because of belnet

Munna · 2007-11-06 18:09:06

wonder wrote:

yeah...
pacman -Rd xcb-proto libxcb libx11 mesa renderproto xf86-input-keyboard xf86-input-mouse xf86-video-vesa xorg-server
and use a outdated mirror to download does packages
one is ftp.iasi.roedu.net because of belnet

Thx, wonder.

I have the same prob like Wauzenplauz.
The server crashes with ...
I'm working on a T30 with a Radeon M7500, no nvidia-card, thus the installation seeked for nvidia-utils.
Synaptics worked with "SendCoreEvents" instead of "AlwaysCore".
I'll downgrade. And in my case also:
synaptics xf86-input-evdev xf86-input-joystick xf86-video-ati

Last edited by Munna (2008-01-08 23:29:55)

.:B:. · 2007-11-06 18:13:30

MrWeatherbee wrote:

[...]
That certainly paints a rosier picture than what users encountered after the upgrade. I don't see "beware, lots of JAVA apps will break" or "you may have to learn to configure xorg.conf all over again" in that news release.
[...]

This makes me wonder. We all now Arch has a certain, rather big, amount of DIY, if one cannot configure X, he should not run Arch in the first place. After all, this isn't Ubuntu, is it?

I can tell you i've done upgrades on other distros that went far worse than on Arch, while affecting less important areas of the distro.

Last edited by B (2007-11-06 18:13:49)

Munna · 2007-11-06 18:30:20

arch rulez and Ubuntu is for DAU's

MrWeatherbee · 2007-11-06 18:52:49

B wrote:

This makes me wonder. We all now Arch has a certain, rather big, amount of DIY, if one cannot configure X, he should not run Arch in the first place. After all, this isn't Ubuntu, is it?
I can tell you i've done upgrades on other distros that went far worse than on Arch, while affecting less important areas of the distro.

Typical answer that allows the writer to suggest an air of superiority, even when that superiority really doesn't exist.

My post doesn't attempt to address whether one is smart or not, whether one can fix a problem when one encounters it or not, or whether one is even cognizant enough to know that Arch is not Ubuntu. And it certainly doesn't try to compare Arch to any other operating system relative to how often upgrades go wrong or right.

What I attempted to address, boiled down to basics, was the issue of common courtesy. If testing was really done, then it must have been evident that the issues users are encountering exist, and therefore, a nice heads-up before the fact should not be too much to ask.

.:B:. · 2007-11-06 19:07:46

Well... Why do you think Xorg 7.3 ends up in extra, weeks (if not months) after other distros put it in their main repos? It hasn't exactly been idling in there.

You may view my statement in whatever light you wish. Those who help theirselves get helped by others - that's what it boils down to. over and over.

kth5 · 2007-11-07 01:49:05

Java problem has been fixed in libx11-1.1.3-6 many hours ago. Plus, nobody ever reported anything about it ever since X.org 7.3 went to [testing] which happened about a month ago. I don't want to sound cruel, but I second other dev's opionions about not supporting binary blobs like Java at all. And yes, I don't use any Java application as I don't see any reason to. Now that I tried, it didn't work either with xcb 1.1 nor with xcb 1.0. So, it's not our fault although yes, we could have caught it. Only thing I'd like users to realize is their tone of voice. We are - I am - doing the best I can but I can only test as much as I use.

The Java problem has been solved, the xorg.conf issues have been all over the forums and mailing lists scattered throughout the month. We have an active community and so I don't see any regrets in not having posted this to the news yet again. It already has been during the introduction of the beta releases to testing.

Ah well, enough of a rant... I'll be back at the bug on the tracker as soon as I find time tomorrow. Wish I was paid for this... heh ;P

Good luck to everyone and you know where to get to the devs, right?

Cheers,

-Y

Last edited by kth5 (2007-11-07 01:50:30)

Wauzenplauz · 2007-11-07 13:32:35

@wonder:

I tried the solution you suggeted to no avail. Downgrading itself went smoothly, but the X server did not come back, neither with the original xorg.conf nor with a newly created.

Currently I am using a LiveDistro to have X again and hope to solve the problem within the next few days.

thx.

mykey · 2007-11-07 15:00:10

In my case the downgrade boils down to 4 packages and X (and java apps and mouse) runs without problems:
xf86-input-keyboard-1.1.1-1.pkg.tar.gz
xf86-input-mouse-1.2.1-1.pkg.tar.gz
xf86-video-mga-1.4.6.1-1.pkg.tar.gz
xorg-server-1.2.0-5.pkg.tar.gz
I put those back in place and I'm fine.

I suspect the matrox driver to be faulty - I get stripy screens and am unable to move windows around - they get smashed the moment I move them - maybe someone has a clue.

And again: two thumbs up for all you devs out there - you are all doing an incredible job to make arch the great distribution it is.

Last edited by mykey (2007-11-07 15:01:06)

mifrai · 2007-11-07 15:34:32

I downgraded recently too. I didn't want to, but the one thing that drove me bonkers is that if I typed: C-M-x, and held down the keys in that order, it would send a C-x event.... But M-C-x worked fine. It was weird.

But anyways, I'm hoping to see a solution soon too. Thanks devs!

Wauzenplauz · 2007-11-07 18:31:39

Finally I have my X up and running again.

As mentionend in another post, it is sufficient to disable 3D acceleration by using "vesa" as driver and setting an Option with preferred mode to my resolution.

So with the latest drivers (no downgrade needed) I can work again.

Here is what I have done to my xorg.conf

Section "Module"
        Load  "xtrap"
        Load  "dbe"
        Load  "record"
        Load  "extmod"
        # Load  "dri"
        Load  "drm"
        Load  "GLcore"
        # Load  "glx"
        Load  "type1"
        Load  "freetype"
EndSection

Section "Monitor"
        Identifier   "Monitor0"
        VendorName   "Monitor Vendor"
        ModelName    "Monitor Model"
        Option       "PreferredMode" "1400x1050"
EndSection

Section "Device"Identifier  "Card0"
        Driver      "vesa"
        VendorName  "ATI Technologies Inc"
        BoardName   "Radeon Mobility M7 LW [Radeon Mobility 7500]"
        # BusID       "PCI:1:0:0"
EndSection

Section "Screen"
        Identifier "Screen0"
        Device     "Card0"
        Monitor    "Monitor0"
        SubSection "Display"
                # Viewport   0 0
                Depth     1
                Modes     "1400x1050"
        EndSubSection
        SubSection "Display"
                # Viewport   0 0
                Depth     4
                Modes     "1400x1050"
        EndSubSection
        SubSection "Display"
                # Viewport   0 0
                Depth     8
                Modes     "1400x1050"
        EndSubSection
        SubSection "Display"
                # Viewport   0 0
                Depth     15
                Modes     "1400x1050"
        EndSubSection
        SubSection "Display"
                # Viewport   0 0
                Depth     16
                Modes     "1400x1050"
        EndSubSection
        SubSection "Display"
                # Viewport   0 0
                Depth     24
                Modes     "1400x1050"
        EndSubSection
EndSection

Here are the packages I use:
libgl 7.0.1-1
xf86-input-keyboard 1.2.2-2
xf86-input-mouse 1.2.3-1
xf86-video-apm 1.1.1-4
xf86-video-ati 6.7.195-1
xf86-video-vesa 1.3.0-5
xf86dgaproto 2.0.3-1
xf86miscproto 0.9.2-1
xf86vidmodeproto 2.2.2-1
xorg-server 1.4-5
thx.

mykey · 2007-11-07 22:20:53

Nice tip to use vesa driver - works for me too - I can't feel any decrease in performance - only the colour depth does not seem to make it to 24.

Last edited by mykey (2007-11-08 08:28:44)

roguetr · 2007-11-07 23:28:33

I've updated everything and the only issue I have is with the new ATI driver.

Is this the new one with all the pseudo-xinerama stuff ripped out?

If so, does it still support acceleration for dual head? And to configure dual head again, do I follow standard xorg.conf convention now?

Outside of the above, I'm running kde-compiz-fuzion on radeon 7500 mobility and all seems to be ok.

Thanks

Misfit138 · 2007-11-08 00:45:22

I'd like to encourage everyone to familiarize themselves with the bugtracker: http://bugs.archlinux.org/
Once you've narrowed down a bug and made sure it is not an upstream problem, please post a bug report.

xd-0 · 2007-11-08 10:06:23

The upgrade worked fine for me. I only noticed (because of someone wrote a topic in the forum about it) that resizing windows a longer time makes the cpu go rocket high. So I can't tell if it was there before.
The xorg looks the same for me (old nvidia generated).

All in all, as long as people don't use testing (and report bugs!!!) there will always be issues with new upgrades.

Arch Linux

#1 2007-11-06 07:19:22

New Xorg bad

#2 2007-11-06 08:06:54

Re: New Xorg bad

#3 2007-11-06 08:44:26

Re: New Xorg bad

#4 2007-11-06 12:26:37

Re: New Xorg bad

#5 2007-11-06 12:55:53

Re: New Xorg bad

#6 2007-11-06 13:03:19

Re: New Xorg bad

#7 2007-11-06 14:43:47

Re: New Xorg bad

#8 2007-11-06 15:36:37

Re: New Xorg bad

#9 2007-11-06 16:00:38

Re: New Xorg bad

#10 2007-11-06 17:10:25

Re: New Xorg bad

#11 2007-11-06 18:09:06

Re: New Xorg bad

#12 2007-11-06 18:13:30

Re: New Xorg bad

#13 2007-11-06 18:30:20

Re: New Xorg bad

#14 2007-11-06 18:52:49

Re: New Xorg bad

#15 2007-11-06 19:07:46

Re: New Xorg bad

#16 2007-11-07 01:49:05

Re: New Xorg bad

#17 2007-11-07 13:32:35

Re: New Xorg bad

#18 2007-11-07 15:00:10

Re: New Xorg bad

#19 2007-11-07 15:34:32

Re: New Xorg bad

#20 2007-11-07 18:31:39

Re: New Xorg bad

#21 2007-11-07 22:20:53

Re: New Xorg bad

#22 2007-11-07 23:28:33

Re: New Xorg bad

#23 2007-11-08 00:45:22

Re: New Xorg bad

#24 2007-11-08 10:06:23

Re: New Xorg bad

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