My thoughts (and yours too!) about Arch (I'm in love already!)

tomk · 2008-02-02 08:49:56

violagirl23 wrote:

There doesn't appear to BE an update-modules command.

No idea what update-modules is, but if it's important to you, maybe you could port it over from Gentoo?

violagirl23 wrote:

And the lack of my favorite Gentoo command modules-rebuild is just disheartening, because it makes rebuilding modules not in the kernel when you recompile it a snap

Arch provides a compiled kernel package with compatible external module packages. Many users never rebuild their kernel, so there is no need for Arch to "officially" provide a tool of this sort. Again, you might consider porting it over.

brebs · 2008-02-02 08:54:38

update-modules in Gentoo is a pain, because people forget to run it. Its only purpose is to regenerate /etc/modprobe.conf

In Arch, simply edit /etc/modprobe.conf

Leigh · 2008-02-02 09:56:19

violagirl23 wrote:

I read *part* of the beginner's guide, but to be honest, after that I got too distracted by the power of pacman.
Yeah, I'm definitely going to work with Arch for a while before I make any decisions on it. At *least* a few months so I can learn how to get around and truly be efficient.
Heck, if I had that philosophy, I would have thrown Gentoo out within hours of starting to install it!!!
XDDDDDDDD
Well, I'll try taking another look at the beginner's guide while I continue to reboot to Gentoo just to have sound. >.< I REALLY hope I get this alsa thing straightened out. XD

haha, your posts reminded me of when I discovered arch and pacman back in 2004. I was struggling with gentoo at that time, but was mostly familiar with debian. I was so amazed by pacman too, although Arch's repositories were much much smaller then! Even so, I stuck with Arch and fell in love with it. Gentoo, even though it seemed very cool, was just too time consuming for me. Arch's simplicity as a binary distro, along with abs, and learning about packages and building them from source if I wanted to, just made me even more amazed by pacman! One of these day's I hope to come up with something very cool so I can contribute back to the arch community!

Welcome to Arch, and I hope you get your sound problems fixed.

violagirl23 · 2008-02-02 18:23:12

tomk wrote:

Arch provides a compiled kernel package with compatible external module packages. Many users never rebuild their kernel, so there is no need for Arch to "officially" provide a tool of this sort. Again, you might consider porting it over.

Really? Wow, I couldn't last two days before I HAD to download the vanilla sources or I was going to go crazy.... I couldn't stand the thought that there were surely so many options checked for hardware I don't even have....

Maybe I'm just over-obsessive about it then.

But yeah, Pacman sure does seem more... customizable.
I dunno, I always assumed that Portage would be more customizable than Pacman, but the only way it is more customizable is in the way of USE flags. Pacman seems much more customizable in every OTHER area, now that I've used it.
And yaourt... wow, what a great program. I was so excited when I installed it that I voted for it right away and emailed the developer to thank them.
And I actually got a response back.. it seems like in Gentoo, the developers don't really care much about the users.... >.>

Last edited by violagirl23 (2008-02-02 18:23:56)

shining · 2008-02-02 18:52:37

violagirl23 wrote:

tomk wrote:
Arch provides a compiled kernel package with compatible external module packages. Many users never rebuild their kernel, so there is no need for Arch to "officially" provide a tool of this sort. Again, you might consider porting it over.
Really? Wow, I couldn't last two days before I HAD to download the vanilla sources or I was going to go crazy.... I couldn't stand the thought that there were surely so many options checked for hardware I don't even have....
Maybe I'm just over-obsessive about it then.

I think so, Gentoo made me that way too. When I tried Debian and Arch after Gentoo, the first thing I did after installing was recompiling the kernel.
It took me a while to figure out that doing it didn't add anything really noticable, and was rather pointless and time consuming.
So I have been a happy user of distrib stock kernels since then.

But yeah, Pacman sure does seem more... customizable.
I dunno, I always assumed that Portage would be more customizable than Pacman, but the only way it is more customizable is in the way of USE flags. Pacman seems much more customizable in every OTHER area, now that I've used it.
And yaourt... wow, what a great program. I was so excited when I installed it that I voted for it right away and emailed the developer to thank them.
And I actually got a response back.. it seems like in Gentoo, the developers don't really care much about the users.... >.>

Not that it really matters, but it might be worth mentioning that yaourt is not an official tool, and wain not an official developer.
Obviously, that doesn't make him less nice or less appreciated in the arch community than the other devs though

violagirl23 · 2008-02-02 19:34:11

Well yes, but does Gentoo even really HAVE unofficial developers, really? :-p Sort of seems like you have to be "in-on-it" or you don't really have much power to do anything at all.

shining wrote:

I think so, Gentoo made me that way too. When I tried Debian and Arch after Gentoo, the first thing I did after installing was recompiling the kernel.
It took me a while to figure out that doing it didn't add anything really noticable, and was rather pointless and time consuming.
So I have been a happy user of distrib stock kernels since then.

Yes, but isn't it pretty much something you only *have* to do once if you do it right and after that can just choose to tinker little things? (and then just giving it a quick look-over when new kernels come out for changes of course).
Unless I'm missing something here...

Last edited by violagirl23 (2008-02-02 19:36:27)

Misfit138 · 2008-02-02 20:34:38

violagirl23 wrote:

Well yes, but does Gentoo even really HAVE unofficial developers, really? :-p Sort of seems like you have to be "in-on-it" or you don't really have much power to do anything at all.
shining wrote:
I think so, Gentoo made me that way too. When I tried Debian and Arch after Gentoo, the first thing I did after installing was recompiling the kernel.
It took me a while to figure out that doing it didn't add anything really noticable, and was rather pointless and time consuming.
So I have been a happy user of distrib stock kernels since then.
Yes, but isn't it pretty much something you only *have* to do once if you do it right and after that can just choose to tinker little things? (and then just giving it a quick look-over when new kernels come out for changes of course).
Unless I'm missing something here...

It is often completely pointless to recompile a kernel on a modern machine, if all hardware is working properly. Arch stock kernels are excellent, and the only reasons I can think of for recompiling a monolithic kernel are 1. For the hobby factor or 2. For really old machines that will benefit from a slimmer kernel.
There are some rare cases, I admit, where it may be preferable (for instance suspend issues with certain laptops) but overall, it is becoming increasingly unnecessary to do so.

Last edited by Misfit138 (2008-02-02 20:43:28)

brebs · 2008-02-02 22:34:59

Misfit138 wrote:

if all hardware is working properly

That is a big "if", for the poor suckers like me who want reliable wireless networking, or the even poorer suckers with exotic soundcards.

tigrmesh · 2008-02-03 00:34:59

@Misfit138: It always takes gentoo users a while to get used to the (for lack of a better word) pace of Arch. Also, no offense, but would you have come down so hard on her if she were male?

Misfit138 · 2008-02-03 00:46:08

brebs wrote:

Misfit138 wrote:
if all hardware is working properly
That is a big "if", for the poor suckers like me who want reliable wireless networking, or the even poorer suckers with exotic soundcards.

Good point.

tigrmesh wrote:

@Misfit138: It always takes gentoo users a while to get used to the (for lack of a better word) pace of Arch. Also, no offense, but would you have come down so hard on her if she were male?

I didn't realize that. I also didn't mean to 'come down' so hard, or to even sound harsh. Sorry if it sounded that way!

Last edited by Misfit138 (2008-02-03 01:03:09)

Leigh · 2008-02-03 01:27:55

Ok, I can't help but say something here

I wouldn't say, (even in general) customizing the Vanilla kernel is pointless. For 1...Even if we don't gain much performance wise, it certainly helps us to learn more about our hardware, specific functions, what we truly need, and what we can do without. The learning curve involved makes it beneficial in itself. Also what little performance gain we can achieve gives some of us a kind of peace of mind in knowing that our linux install has that personal, or customized, touch specific to our systems. Personally, if it doesn't hurt anything and might even be invisible, It still bugs me to know there's something in my system that I truly don't need or want, and if I find it, or learn about it, I just want to get rid of it. Same if I learn about the little tweak that can be helpful even if it's just a tiny bit helpful, I want to incorperate it. Some of us are just tweakers, and in a lot of ways, I think that's part of what linux, and Arch, is all about. We have the ability to truly make our systems fit who we are, inside (kernel) and outside. : )

Also what better way to keep a backup kernel incase of an update problem with the vanilla one, than to create a tweaked custom kernel. That actually happened not long ago when a vanilla kernel update had been corrupt due to a server problem. I think it effected quite a few people. I didn't even notice it because I always run the custom kernel. But, it helped me to remember to boot the vanilla kernel after it's updated just to make sure there's no problems with it, especially before rebuilding or tweaking my custom kernel.

..Off Topic..
I think we all know linux isn't a mens only club, althouth it might seem like it at times. If I knew more about my bf's muscle car than he does, he might feel a little threatened? Or maybe he would let me enlighten him? I wonder which is more likely?

Last edited by Leigh (2008-02-03 01:47:39)

Misfit138 · 2008-02-03 01:51:37

I understand where you're coming from.
It is true that GNU/Linux is appealing to people who are enthusiasts/hobbyists, or 'tweakers' as you put it.
I would simply add that part of what makes Arch so appealing to me (and source-based distros so unappealing) is the KISS philosophy, and leaving out unneeded complexities.
As I stated earlier, I think of a PC as a tool, and at a certain point, all the tweaking and compiling becomes more trouble than it is worth. Arch 'just works', thanks to the underlying principles that keep it simple and transparent.
I understand that the 'certain point' is different for everyone.

Misfit138 · 2008-02-03 01:55:50

Leigh wrote:

Also what better way to keep a backup kernel incase of an update problem with the vanilla one, than to create a tweaked custom kernel. That actually happened not long ago when a vanilla kernel update had been corrupt due to a server problem. I think it effected quite a few people. I didn't even notice it because I always run the custom kernel. But, it helped me to remember to boot the vanilla kernel after it's updated just to make sure there's no problems with it, especially before rebuilding or tweaking my custom kernel.
..Off Topic..
I think we all know linux isn't a mens only club, althouth it might seem like it at times. If I knew more about my bf's muscle car than he does, he might feel a little threatened? Or maybe he would let me enlighten him? I wonder which is more likely?

Call me a hypocrite, but this happened to me not too long ago, and yes, I did have a custom kernel as a fallback.
If you knew more about your bf's muscle car than he did, then I'd want your number.

I think I stand corrected.

Last edited by Misfit138 (2008-02-03 02:08:04)

Leigh · 2008-02-03 06:00:09

Misfit138 wrote:

Call me a hypocrite, but this happened to me not too long ago, and yes, I did have a custom kernel as a fallback.
If you knew more about your bf's muscle car than he did, then I'd want your number.
I think I stand corrected.

haha! Actually If I had read your last post prior to the one I wrote (I think we posted about the same time) I probably would have kept my trap shut! I do think the vanilla kernel is great for the majority, but even though it's probably all I really need, I think my custom kernel does perform noticeably better. Plus, I really like having the vanilla kernel as a backup : )

I should have never made the muscle car comment! I'm already being punished! *sigh*

Last edited by Leigh (2008-02-03 06:01:16)

violagirl23 · 2008-02-03 19:49:47

I don't know, I guess I just really want to learn. I realize one day maybe I won't have all this time to fiddle with my computer, and I just like to fiddle. I'm not sure why. All my friends find it very odd, but they always ask me to help them fix their computers, and then it takes me forever because I'm not so good with Windows. @_@
Especially because this is my senior year in high school I am starting to realize maybe I *won't* have this kind of time to learn about my computer in college, or later on in life, and it kind of makes me.. sad, I suppose. I've grown quite attached to it, because it never does anything I say. I feel like I've had to learn how to do so many things just to make this thing *work* right, but once I do them, they are permanent and somewhat satisfying to me. And they make me appreciate my computer more than any Windows computer I ever used, because I felt like I was just using Windows computers to do things. But with my Linux box, I feel like I'm using my computer because I can learn, and because it makes me happy. Everytime I learn something new on the command line, it makes me happy. I have no idea why. It's such a stupid thing to be happy about, but it does make me happy. And the excitement of getting to go to this Linux convention in April also makes me excited.
Maybe Linux *is* still mostly male-dominated.
But it doesn't really matter.
I don't use Linux because of the other people who are using it, I use it because *I* need it. Even if no one else in the world wanted it anymore, *I* need it and that's all that is important to me. And I love it, and it makes me happy, and that's why I use Linux, not to have a more stable operating system than Windows, though that is definitely a plus. Not even for open source, though I really like that too. I just use it because it makes me happy and I don't know why, and I want to use a Linux that doesn't *try* to make itself seem easier like Windows, because if I wanted that, I would just use Mac! I just love it so much.
It's my goal to eventually teach myself enough programming (and hopefully take some courses in college when I start next year) so I can contribute to open source software and help fix things, and write programs for LINUX. I don't see why anyone would need money for anything that seems so gosh darn FUN to do, when I want to do it for fun anyway.
This is what makes me want to compile my kernel, and this is what makes me want to learn as much as I possibly can about EVERYTHING with it.
Waste of time? Maybe.
Waste of effort? Maybe.
But it makes me HAPPY. That's why.
And I don't think I can get much better than that.

skottish · 2008-02-03 19:59:56

violagirl23 wrote:

Waste of time? Maybe.
Waste of effort? Maybe.

Nope and nope. When anyone feels inclined to learn and has the motivation to do it, they should go for it. And why not? We're all kickin' off this rock in a hand full of blinks.

finferflu · 2008-02-03 21:23:35

violagirl23 wrote:

I don't know, I guess I just really want to learn. I realize one day maybe I won't have all this time to fiddle with my computer, and I just like to fiddle. I'm not sure why. All my friends find it very odd, but they always ask me to help them fix their computers, and then it takes me forever because I'm not so good with Windows. @_@
Especially because this is my senior year in high school I am starting to realize maybe I *won't* have this kind of time to learn about my computer in college, or later on in life, and it kind of makes me.. sad, I suppose. I've grown quite attached to it, because it never does anything I say. I feel like I've had to learn how to do so many things just to make this thing *work* right, but once I do them, they are permanent and somewhat satisfying to me. And they make me appreciate my computer more than any Windows computer I ever used, because I felt like I was just using Windows computers to do things. But with my Linux box, I feel like I'm using my computer because I can learn, and because it makes me happy. Everytime I learn something new on the command line, it makes me happy. I have no idea why. It's such a stupid thing to be happy about, but it does make me happy. And the excitement of getting to go to this Linux convention in April also makes me excited.

Aww, that makes me sad. I have discovered Linux only when I was already attending university. I wish I had discovered it while I was attending high school (and before?!). In fact it has been sucking my time on and on. And in fact I am supposed to write my dissertation right now, but I'm posting on this forum
Anyway, I'll take one year off if I manage to graduate this year, and start doing something about Linux (graphics terminal, anyone?)

Ah, and as for friends who ask me to help them with Windows I refuse, and propose them Linux as the ultimate solution. A bit nasty, but I hate Windows (also, how can you help them via chat? "Click here, click there on the banana-shaped icon-whatever"?).

floke · 2008-02-03 22:00:16

violagirl23 wrote:

I don't know, I guess I just really want to learn. I realize one day maybe I won't have all this time to fiddle with my computer, and I just like to fiddle. I'm not sure why. All my friends find it very odd, but they always ask me to help them fix their computers, and then it takes me forever because I'm not so good with Windows. @_@
Especially because this is my senior year in high school I am starting to realize maybe I *won't* have this kind of time to learn about my computer in college, or later on in life, and it kind of makes me.. sad, I suppose. I've grown quite attached to it, because it never does anything I say. I feel like I've had to learn how to do so many things just to make this thing *work* right, but once I do them, they are permanent and somewhat satisfying to me. And they make me appreciate my computer more than any Windows computer I ever used, because I felt like I was just using Windows computers to do things. But with my Linux box, I feel like I'm using my computer because I can learn, and because it makes me happy. Everytime I learn something new on the command line, it makes me happy. I have no idea why. It's such a stupid thing to be happy about, but it does make me happy. And the excitement of getting to go to this Linux convention in April also makes me excited.
Maybe Linux *is* still mostly male-dominated.
But it doesn't really matter.
I don't use Linux because of the other people who are using it, I use it because *I* need it. Even if no one else in the world wanted it anymore, *I* need it and that's all that is important to me. And I love it, and it makes me happy, and that's why I use Linux, not to have a more stable operating system than Windows, though that is definitely a plus. Not even for open source, though I really like that too. I just use it because it makes me happy and I don't know why, and I want to use a Linux that doesn't *try* to make itself seem easier like Windows, because if I wanted that, I would just use Mac! I just love it so much.
It's my goal to eventually teach myself enough programming (and hopefully take some courses in college when I start next year) so I can contribute to open source software and help fix things, and write programs for LINUX. I don't see why anyone would need money for anything that seems so gosh darn FUN to do, when I want to do it for fun anyway.
This is what makes me want to compile my kernel, and this is what makes me want to learn as much as I possibly can about EVERYTHING with it.
Waste of time? Maybe.
Waste of effort? Maybe.
But it makes me HAPPY. That's why.
And I don't think I can get much better than that.

What a brilliant post!
One of the best I've ever read.

Misfit138 · 2008-02-03 22:48:03

floke wrote:

violagirl23 wrote:
I don't know, I guess I just really want to learn. I realize one day maybe I won't have all this time to fiddle with my computer, and I just like to fiddle. I'm not sure why. All my friends find it very odd, but they always ask me to help them fix their computers, and then it takes me forever because I'm not so good with Windows. @_@
Especially because this is my senior year in high school I am starting to realize maybe I *won't* have this kind of time to learn about my computer in college, or later on in life, and it kind of makes me.. sad, I suppose. I've grown quite attached to it, because it never does anything I say. I feel like I've had to learn how to do so many things just to make this thing *work* right, but once I do them, they are permanent and somewhat satisfying to me. And they make me appreciate my computer more than any Windows computer I ever used, because I felt like I was just using Windows computers to do things. But with my Linux box, I feel like I'm using my computer because I can learn, and because it makes me happy. Everytime I learn something new on the command line, it makes me happy. I have no idea why. It's such a stupid thing to be happy about, but it does make me happy. And the excitement of getting to go to this Linux convention in April also makes me excited.
Maybe Linux *is* still mostly male-dominated.
But it doesn't really matter.
I don't use Linux because of the other people who are using it, I use it because *I* need it. Even if no one else in the world wanted it anymore, *I* need it and that's all that is important to me. And I love it, and it makes me happy, and that's why I use Linux, not to have a more stable operating system than Windows, though that is definitely a plus. Not even for open source, though I really like that too. I just use it because it makes me happy and I don't know why, and I want to use a Linux that doesn't *try* to make itself seem easier like Windows, because if I wanted that, I would just use Mac! I just love it so much.
It's my goal to eventually teach myself enough programming (and hopefully take some courses in college when I start next year) so I can contribute to open source software and help fix things, and write programs for LINUX. I don't see why anyone would need money for anything that seems so gosh darn FUN to do, when I want to do it for fun anyway.
This is what makes me want to compile my kernel, and this is what makes me want to learn as much as I possibly can about EVERYTHING with it.
Waste of time? Maybe.
Waste of effort? Maybe.
But it makes me HAPPY. That's why.
And I don't think I can get much better than that.
What a brilliant post!
One of the best I've ever read.

Indeed.
If it makes you happy, do it.

Leigh · 2008-02-03 23:23:15

violagirl23, that was what I was trying to say, but you said with so much charm! great post! Arch is perfect to take it anywhere you want, and for learning if you want!

I hope you decide to stick around and help make Arch even better!

violagirl23 · 2008-02-03 23:26:12

Leigh wrote:

violagirl23, that was what I was trying to say, but you said with so much charm! great post! Arch is perfect to take it anywhere you want, and for learning if you want!

Oh, I dunno, I think your muscle car example was *quite* charming. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

And I certainly seem to like what I see so far, though I'm definitely going to install both Gentoo and Arch on my new laptop when I get it, because I don't think I have the right to get sick of Gentoo because it takes so long... when I'm running it on a Pentium II with 384 MB of ram.
If I STILL don't like it on new hardware, then yeah, it's out!

Leigh · 2008-02-04 01:17:27

Yea, I gues I kind of got ralled up haha! I love building my own kernel

I fiddled with gentoo about 4 or 5 years ago. I guess it's probably changed a lot since then?

Last edited by Leigh (2008-02-04 01:18:03)

violagirl23 · 2008-02-04 01:36:11

I guess I wouldn't know how much has changed, as I have only been using Gentoo for 6 months now. I would imagine the Portage tree has gotten bigger, and now the project doesn't have its leader Daniel Robbins (aka Drobbins- left in 2004, I think).
Have you done a lot of distro-hopping over the years? Or did you just do Gentoo and Arch? I am, like I said, still planning on trying a few others, but I think I'll still end up liking these two the best. But I have to try LFS just because it sounds like a fun weekend project.

Leigh · 2008-02-04 02:12:59

I got my first taste of linux with Mandrake 7.0, then I mostly learned on debian. Not really anything overly technical, but just the basics. Then I tried gentoo. I could install it ok without much trouble, but I think I tinkered too much. I had to reinstall a couple of times because of really dumb stuff I did. Then I found Arch. I wasn't smart enough to keep a distro healthy for very long (always messing with stuff!) and Arch was much faster to reinstall! haha. Over the last few years, I played with lots of others along side of arch. Vector, slackware, frugalware, crux, freebsd, and not long ago I fiddled with absolute linux, a version of slackware. It seemed promising but I like arch much better. I really liked crux, and freebsd, They were very interesting, but I never spent enough time to really try and get use to any of them. I'm so hooked on Arch's pacman and abs features. Nothing has kept me interested long enough to stay away from my arch install for very long. I did try lunar linux not long ago too, but kept getting a error during the install that I never worked out. I should probably try out gentoo again when ever I get some free time. I keep a usb hard drive open just for experimenting. Overall I know enough just to be dangerous and I learned to keep a regular backup of my arch install just for that reason! haha

wow LFS? That would be interesting! I'm sure I would need more than just a weekend for that one!

edit...
Oh! as far as live cd'd go, I'm totally hooked on puppy linux!

Last edited by Leigh (2008-02-04 02:17:04)

schivmeister · 2008-02-04 04:00:58

You want to learn, everything's at your disposal, LFS, Gentoo, Arch, FreeBSD, whatever. Linux began as an engineer's platform, or a hobbyist's toy. Much like how Plan 9 is now. I for one am a closet geek, there are times when I want to learn and there are times when I need to work. Gentoo was my choice when I wanted to build a music production platform, and is still an on-going thing. Arch was my choice when I needed to work, and is my primary platform for daily tasks like writing (or typing) essays, theses, scanning art, documents etc.

1)

2)

3)

Which do YOU want?

Arch Linux

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