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#26 2008-04-30 19:30:21

finferflu
Forum Fellow
From: Manchester, UK
Registered: 2007-06-21
Posts: 1,899
Website

Re: What do you value in a window manager?

Perhaps you haven't been here long enough, or not been attentive tongue
I will reply you in private. It was only meant as irony, nothing more smile


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#27 2008-05-01 05:26:19

inXistant
Member
From: Montreal, Canada
Registered: 2008-04-11
Posts: 51
Website

Re: What do you value in a window manager?

well, you mint not believe me, but I run evilwm when I need one display... Therefore:

1) Simplicity
2) Fast
3) Efficient
4) Nothing that I don't need...

Last edited by inXistant (2008-05-01 05:33:34)


Nothing is sacred

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#28 2008-05-03 01:47:40

sajro
Member
Registered: 2008-03-02
Posts: 56

Re: What do you value in a window manager?

In a window manager...hmm...

* Very light. My main Arch machine has 384MB RAM, and with it I am able to run OpenBox, fbpanel, Firefox, Conky, and several other apps comfortably. FOr the same reason of lightness, I run Awesome on my 256MB desktop. I will be getting a modern-er laptop with probably around 1-2GB RAM (thanks M$ for making RAM so critical it became so cheap) in about a year. On that I will also run OpenBox. I like Awesome, but my laptop is to be used by more people than myself (ones who don't get the beauty of simplicity) and Awesome also has some issues with fullscreen presentation things I need to have.

* Configurable. This seems a popular thing. Now, I don't go customising the default shortcuts (Ctrl+Alt+Arrow to switch workspaces, Alt+F4 to kill client, etc.) because I like less to restore in the unlikely event of loss of the data. However, I may add a keybinding here or there or a rule for application X, etc.

* Good community and documentation. I like OpenBox's and Awesome's communities. As a whole, people are much friendlier than the larger, less-technical (generally, no offence to the techies of these DEs) communities of KDE/Gnome/XFCE. You know, where the majority of support comes as "run this program, then click that checkbox. working? oh ok...umm, try the other checkbox. Okay, that worked. now click 'apply.'" I much prefer: "Here, paste this into .awesomerc: [...] That ought to fix it!"

And that's it. Eye candy...meh, couldn't care much less. A little transparency on terminals can be nice, but it's livable without them. These are the main things I want.

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#29 2008-05-03 07:29:47

ProzacR
Member
Registered: 2007-04-29
Posts: 272

Re: What do you value in a window manager?

only hotkeys (keyboard shortcuts for everything) are important for me. So Openbox.

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#30 2008-05-03 08:28:39

Isomorphism
Member
Registered: 2008-04-29
Posts: 41

Re: What do you value in a window manager?

I just switched to Archlinux and people here advised me to use awesome, openbox etc. I am currently trying to use awesome. At this stage, I would claim using the mouse easily is what I prefer. Since I mostly use video players or browse the web, keyboard control looks strange to me.So the usual noob friendly GNOME, KDE is what I prefer now.

But looking at Arch(or Linux in general), has given me hope. I did not know that an operating system can be so revealing. I nope to have a lot flexibility and control in my window manager.

I am really curious why a lot of people prefer "complete keyboard control"(as seen in previous posts in this thread).[Or say, claim "vim","nano" to be better than "kwrite" or "gedit"?]

Why is using a mouse such a bad thing neutral


Isomorphism

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#31 2008-05-03 08:52:59

jbromley
Member
From: Pasadena, CA
Registered: 2007-02-04
Posts: 268

Re: What do you value in a window manager?

Isomorphism wrote:

I am really curious why a lot of people prefer "complete keyboard control"(as seen in previous posts in this thread).[Or say, claim "vim","nano" to be better than "kwrite" or "gedit"?]

Why is using a mouse such a bad thing neutral

Using a mouse is inferior because it is slower. You have to remove your hand from the keyboard, move it to the mouse, manipulate the mouse, and then bring the hand back. All that takes time. Now if you do it a few hundred times a day, you can see these seconds begin to add up. A good wm and applications let you do all this with a few keystrokes without ever having your hands leave the home row.

If I want to run a program, say emacs, I just type "emacs" (after perhaps switching to a terminal with a keystroke). In a traditional menu system, you've got to open the menu and navigate to emacs from all that hierarchy. The newer menus (and deskbar for GNOME) that search for your command in the menu are much better than using the mouse as well.

If I recall correctly, WIMP (windows, icons, mouse, pointer) is better for new computer users. However, power users who know the commands they need get better speed out of just using the keyboard. I'm fairly sure there have been studies on this that bear this out.

Of course, if you're accustomed to using the mouse for everything, it will take a while to adjust to using the keyboard for everything. I know reaching for the mouse is a reflex for most computer users. However, once you do break this bad habit I think you will find you work more efficiently without the "cursed rolly thing."

Anyway, welcome to Arch. Enjoy!
j

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#32 2008-05-03 08:55:34

prasetyams
Member
From: Jakarta
Registered: 2008-04-29
Posts: 74

Re: What do you value in a window manager?

I always use Xfce since I can remember. I have tried KDE, Gnome, etc but for me, Xfce is still the best. I am a casual linux user, and I like something simple and looks good. Xfce fits just that.

1. Simple, easy to understand
2. Looks good without sacrificing performance
3. Get the job done
4. Configurable to suit my needs (or style)

And, Xfce has a basic compositing so a little shadows and transparency helps to beautify the entire look.


Where's my sig?

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#33 2008-05-03 11:40:36

CuleX
Member
Registered: 2007-09-15
Posts: 107

Re: What do you value in a window manager?

jbromley wrote:

If I recall correctly, WIMP (windows, icons, mouse, pointer) is better for new computer users.

Please read this: http://www.osnews.com/story/6282

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#34 2008-05-04 04:12:26

jbromley
Member
From: Pasadena, CA
Registered: 2007-02-04
Posts: 268

Re: What do you value in a window manager?

CuleX wrote:
jbromley wrote:

If I recall correctly, WIMP (windows, icons, mouse, pointer) is better for new computer users.

Please read this: http://www.osnews.com/story/6282

Ah yes, I believe I have read that before. It makes some very good points. I was referring to the original research around the time Xerox PARC started working with windows, before everything in the world began to use WIMP systems. Of course, back then you didn't have submenus three and four levels deep filled with a dizzying array of options like we do now.

Anyway, I'm all for it. Go keyboard! The next thing we have to do is get rid of "multitasking madness." As much as corporate types might dislike it, it's nigh time we recognized the cognitive limits of humans and how human performance and efficiency degrades when being forced to "multitask".

Thanks and regards,
j

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#35 2008-05-04 05:07:04

pauldonnelly
Member
Registered: 2006-06-19
Posts: 776

Re: What do you value in a window manager?

Isomorphism wrote:

I am really curious why a lot of people prefer "complete keyboard control"(as seen in previous posts in this thread).[Or say, claim "vim","nano" to be better than "kwrite" or "gedit"?]

Why is using a mouse such a bad thing neutral

It's not, and the speed disadvantage people will tell you comes from using the mouse is largely imaginary. But that doesn't change how people feel.

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#36 2008-05-04 09:41:03

ProzacR
Member
Registered: 2007-04-29
Posts: 272

Re: What do you value in a window manager?

Mouse speed disadvantage is real. Try to start 4 programs one for every desktop and turn on some music now with mouse. Measure time. At least 10 or even 20 seconds. Most time you will waste while moving upsidedown trough entire screen.

Without mouse i need less than 2 seconds.
(hold action key and print x F2 f F3 e F4 m)

Last edited by ProzacR (2008-05-04 09:45:00)

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#37 2008-05-04 18:21:46

pauldonnelly
Member
Registered: 2006-06-19
Posts: 776

Re: What do you value in a window manager?

ProzacR wrote:

Mouse speed disadvantage is real. Try to start 4 programs one for every desktop and turn on some music now with mouse. Measure time. At least 10 or even 20 seconds. Most time you will waste while moving upsidedown trough entire screen.

Without mouse i need less than 2 seconds.
(hold action key and print x F2 f F3 e F4 m)

I seriously doubt it would take you two only seconds to think through this action and perform it unless you perform this sequence constantly. It takes me seven seconds (timed, without practice) to start four terminals (including startup time for the terminals), switching desktops between, and then unpause mplayer. I don't believe that the average time required to perform these actions with the keyboard is significantly less: it's probably more like five or six seconds. Additionally, you're completely neglecting things like switching between, moving, and resizing windows, all of which are perfect for the mouse.

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#38 2008-05-04 18:44:42

moljac024
Member
From: Serbia
Registered: 2008-01-29
Posts: 2,676

Re: What do you value in a window manager?

His point is that moving and resizing windows should not be done by the user at all......he was advocating the use of a tiling window manager.


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#39 2008-05-04 19:05:25

cardinals_fan
Member
From: /dev/null
Registered: 2008-02-03
Posts: 248

Re: What do you value in a window manager?

pauldonnelly wrote:

Additionally, you're completely neglecting things like switching between, moving, and resizing windows, all of which are perfect for the mouse.

Why would I want to do any of these things?  This is why I have workspaces...


Segmentation fault (core dumped)

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#40 2008-05-04 21:25:10

jbromley
Member
From: Pasadena, CA
Registered: 2007-02-04
Posts: 268

Re: What do you value in a window manager?

pauldonnelly wrote:

It's not, and the speed disadvantage people will tell you comes from using the mouse is largely imaginary. But that doesn't change how people feel.

I assume you're referring to Tognazzini's famous research (1989) on the matter for your backing on this. However, Tog himself admits when the keyboard shortcut is already memorized and well understood, it's a clear productivity win. As I have said, the keyboard is often better for power users exactly because they are already memorized.

I take issue from Tog's idea that keyboard users suffer an "amnesia" due to the high-level cognitive function of "deciding among abstract symbols." He claims us keyboarders lose two seconds every time we use a keyboard short cut. I can't buy his claim that deciding what shortcut to use is so "fascinating" that it consumes my whole awareness to the exclusion of everything else. In fact, to me it seems patently ridiculous. I barely have to think I want to change frames or workspaces (wmii) and my muscles are already doing the work of hitting the necessary keys. You see, muscle memory will win here every time once the shortcut is established, even if you also have muscle memory to mouse, for the mere fact that you have to move your hand much farther to use the mouse. It would seem that the mere fact that people can type several characters per second would seem to indicate it is possible to use a keyboard without agonizing for two whole seconds about which abstract symbol you have to use next would show Tog's argument to be weak.

Also, these studies were done back in 1989, when interfaces were much simpler, so I'm not sure how applicable they are 19 years later when we have applications with forests of menus and large sections of the population that have grown up using and internalizing keyboard shortcuts that they have programmed themselves. Note that Tog admits that when users assign shortcuts they are much more useful.

Regards,
j

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#41 2008-05-04 22:00:07

Misbah
Member
Registered: 2008-02-27
Posts: 218

Re: What do you value in a window manager?

deleted

Last edited by Misbah (2012-02-14 04:41:32)

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#42 2008-05-04 22:25:27

jbromley
Member
From: Pasadena, CA
Registered: 2007-02-04
Posts: 268

Re: What do you value in a window manager?

Frankly, I don't care about universalness. I assume that when I and others say the mouse is better it is implied that they mean the mouse is better for them. Forgive me if I did not make this clear. In twenty years of doing development and even more of using computers, the fraction of a time where I wasn't at my machine is miniscule, so it doesn't matter if I can't mouse as fast. Also, when someone comes to my machine, I don't want them to drive! Having my personal customized system is the best way to do this. Of course, if someone else has to use my machine for whatever reason, they can configure their account however they want.

Having said that, I agree with your main point. Tiling wms and keyboard control are not for everyone. (It seems that these two usually come together.) Remember, it has been said that for power users the keyboard can be more efficient, not for everyone and not without exception. One additional point -- you don't need an infinite number of shortcuts -- typing a command in a terminal is often faster than searching menus for your application.

As for your example, I'm not sure about its relevance. When I want to check the weather I just look outside wink Anyway, I'll stop here before this turns into a religious war. Let's leave it at some people like full keyboard control because for them it is faster.

Regards,
j

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#43 2008-05-04 23:09:29

Misbah
Member
Registered: 2008-02-27
Posts: 218

Re: What do you value in a window manager?

deleted

Last edited by Misbah (2012-02-14 04:41:18)

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#44 2008-05-05 04:21:45

jbromley
Member
From: Pasadena, CA
Registered: 2007-02-04
Posts: 268

Re: What do you value in a window manager?

That's cool, no worries, I didn't take it as directed towards me. Just having known and worked with a good number of tiling wm/keyboard freaks, I think my opinion is not too far from the consensus. I agree with your point about "power users" versus "efficiency freaks." It just seems that while it's true that not all power users use tiling wms with full keyboard control (in fact, I'm sure such users are a tiny fraction of all computer users) most tiling wm/keyboard freaks are power users. Recently, however, it seems that a lot more people are getting into tiling wms thanks to awesome.

That's unfortunate that you tried ratpoison first. It breaks two common paradigms and that confuses people doubly. First, there's the whole tiling thing and second, windows aren't tied to any frame in particular: you can bring any window up in any frame. I've used pretty much all the tiling wms, and I know that even so getting used to ratpoison when I first used it took a while. Now, I use stumpwm (a Common Lisp ratpoison port/descendant) alongside wmii.

Oh yeah, you're correct again. This is going way off topic. Umm, I want a responsive window manager! (I don't think I mentioned that before wink.)

Regards,
j

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#45 2008-05-05 09:42:42

ProzacR
Member
Registered: 2007-04-29
Posts: 272

Re: What do you value in a window manager?

pauldonnelly wrote:
ProzacR wrote:

Mouse speed disadvantage is real. Try to start 4 programs one for every desktop and turn on some music now with mouse. Measure time. At least 10 or even 20 seconds. Most time you will waste while moving upsidedown trough entire screen.

Without mouse i need less than 2 seconds.
(hold action key and print x F2 f F3 e F4 m)

I seriously doubt it would take you two only seconds to think through this action and perform it unless you perform this sequence constantly. It takes me seven seconds (timed, without practice) to start four terminals (including startup time for the terminals), switching desktops between, and then unpause mplayer. I don't believe that the average time required to perform these actions with the keyboard is significantly less: it's probably more like five or six seconds. Additionally, you're completely neglecting things like switching between, moving, and resizing windows, all of which are perfect for the mouse.

There is no need to think. x terminal anf Fx desktops. Just click click... -> done
And for resizing alf+space+letter too. It gives maximize and minimize but this is more  than enough.
You can maximize everything and then alt+tab between them.

Only real advantage of mouse is that you do not have to learn anything more than two keys.

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#46 2008-05-05 17:26:57

pauldonnelly
Member
Registered: 2006-06-19
Posts: 776

Re: What do you value in a window manager?

jbromley wrote:
pauldonnelly wrote:

It's not, and the speed disadvantage people will tell you comes from using the mouse is largely imaginary. But that doesn't change how people feel.

I assume you're referring to Tognazzini's famous research (1989) on the matter for your backing on this. However, Tog himself admits when the keyboard shortcut is already memorized and well understood, it's a clear productivity win. As I have said, the keyboard is often better for power users exactly because they are already memorized.

Tangentially, yes. But I'm also referring to my own timing above. I just want to put it out there that using hotkeys for everything is not necessarily a speed win. Yes, when you have a key sequence memorized, using it is very fast. But when you're performing an unfamiliar series of actions or a spatial task, it's on par or worse than the mouse, (assuming your GUI isn't poorly designed). It's important to me to pick the best interface for each task, and I think that a lot of window management tasks are better done with the mouse. Even with a tiling WM (I have used Ratpoison, ion, and dwm extensively in the past), I think dragging to move window borders and to move windows from frame to frame would be a win.

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#47 2008-05-05 19:02:26

jpt
Member
From: Rochester, NY
Registered: 2008-04-28
Posts: 31
Website

Re: What do you value in a window manager?

Back to the original question, what I value most in a WM is speed and useability.  I want everything done fast, and ideally without very much input from me.  That being said, keyboard shortcuts for the most common tasks ARE faster, for me at least.  Aside from speed considerations, it's also just easier to tap a few keys than it is to drag a mouse around. 

Evilwm does everything I'd like it to do.  The only thing I'd change is give it the ability to configure your own shortcuts more easily.

PS:  how many unfamiliar tasks do you actually do when you are using a computer?  I'd say the majority of the things you do are things you do all the time, and as such, I'd expect keyboard shortcuts to be easier.  Honestly, how many of you guys actually right click and copy something instead of just quickly hitting CTRL-C or something?  I think that's common for Windows users just as much as it is with Arch people...

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#48 2008-05-05 20:26:02

Misbah
Member
Registered: 2008-02-27
Posts: 218

Re: What do you value in a window manager?

deleted

Last edited by Misbah (2012-02-14 04:37:30)

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#49 2008-05-05 20:56:49

Barrucadu
Member
From: York, England
Registered: 2008-03-30
Posts: 1,158
Website

Re: What do you value in a window manager?

I value:
* Speed - I must be able to use it quickly.
* Positioning - Making things appear on top of each other is NOT good!
* Screen-efficiency - Must make the best use of my screen space (see above point).
* Shortcuts - Must be keyboard shortcuts for everything I could want to do.
* Customisation - Must be able (but not necessarily stupidly easy) to customise.

For those reasons, I use Xmonad. The customisation via a Haskell script is a bit of a pain, but hey, I'm learning Haskell by using it! That can only be a good thing, right?

Last edited by Barrucadu (2008-05-05 21:10:46)

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#50 2008-05-06 09:29:43

davvil
Member
Registered: 2008-05-06
Posts: 165

Re: What do you value in a window manager?

For me it's important that a WM is
  * Fully customizable
  * Fast
And with the first point I really mean FULLY customizable. You want to have a keyboard oriented config, you can have it. You want eye candy, you can have it. You want to have a minimalistic approach, you can have it.

My choice then: fvwm

Personally I have a relatively minimilasitic approach (no window titles), with transparent pager, tray and some status info on the root window (somewhat of eye candy), heavily keyboard oriented (~100 keybindings defined in my config) and with some window tiling approach, but not enforced like in pure tiling window managers.

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