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#1 2008-05-04 02:32:12

JaDa
Member
From: Sun City, CA (native German)
Registered: 2007-04-06
Posts: 210
Website

Archlinux Leadership

Leadership, you can not run a business/companie/organization if you are not in front of them. The leader and the developmers are responsible for Archlinux.

Sinze Judd pass the torch, many things go to slow down.

Judd said:
"I plan to step down as leader of Arch Linux and pass the torch. The reason for this is that I do not have the time to devote towards a leadership role in a project the size of Arch Linux, and Arch deserves someone who does. It needs some work, it needs some unification, and it needs someone at the helm who can devote a lot of time to it."
http://www.archlinux.org/news/350/

Don't Panic in 2007-10-07 (2007.08-2) was the last official stable release. If a newbie find Archlinux, he will start download this release und run in trouble before he will found out there are another Install CD's in the orbit.

Aaron is a nice kid how just moved out of the egg. Now it is time to be a leader, because Archlinux need a leader. Then you will not read "Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW" or this

>> Hello list,
>> 
>> clamav should be updated.

> Why does the update of clamav take so long ?

> Should I build a new package ?


> --
> regards, TR


Because the developers have a life, if you need a new package use abs and compile it.

in the " [arch-general] ClamAV should be update to 0.93" mailing liste.

For the developmers: Think about that not everybody if a developmer and that 100.000 of Archlinux Users can't build packages. Users like to use it and not to build it. wink

I think: that the developmers do there best and they do a good job big_smile

Please phrakture (Aaron) tell us, are you the leader and can you take the responsible for a leadership ? smile


openSUSE
Arch Linux
USALUG

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#2 2008-05-04 03:06:42

Sigi
Member
From: Thurgau, Switzerland
Registered: 2005-09-22
Posts: 1,121

Re: Archlinux Leadership

JaDa wrote:

For the developmers[sic]: Think about that not everybody if[sic] a developmer[sic] and that 100.000 of Archlinux Users can't build packages. Users like to use it and not to build it.

Where did you get this ridiculous numbers from? And why should someone use Arch when he/she is unable to build a package from AUR/abs?

P.S.: Were you drunk when you wrote this?

Last edited by Sigi (2008-05-04 03:09:06)


Dammit, haven't been here in a while. Still rocking Arch. smile

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#3 2008-05-04 03:33:12

Allan
Developer
From: Brisbane, AU
Registered: 2007-06-09
Posts: 10,361
Website

Re: Archlinux Leadership

Well, I don't know if you will get a response from phraktue straight away given his post to the arch-dev-public mailing list which apologized for being so busy lately due to shifting apartments.  But given he has by far the most posts on the forums...

The thing is, I see is the ClamAV and Wine (which cause the distrowatch complaint) threads as complaining.  There will always, always be packages out of date.  Look at the number of packages in core/extra and then compare that to the number of devs.  That is a big workload for volunteers who do this in their spare time. 

In fact, closing the wine thread showed leadership on the forum mods behalf.  Those sort of thread have never gone anywhere and I'm not sure what is causing the sudden influx of threads like them (and this).  It has been proposed to be because of an influx of new members to the community but some of thread starters have been around for a while.

Also, the fact is, Aaron has taken leadership.  For example, the fact that all packages that move into core need to be signed off by developers before moving from testing - when was the last time one of those broke your system?  Also, the whole sorting out the whole core/extra definition which has really cleaned up the distro. 

You comment that 100,000 Arch users cannot build packages is just crap.  Arch has one of the best ports systems around.  Building an updated version of a packages usually requires changing the package version in one file and typing "makepkg".  If you are one of our ~2 remaining Pentium II users, it may take overnight but then you probably also have a faster machine to build it on.  Arch has alway been for moderately advanced linux users.  We don't do hand-holding around here.  If you can't rebuild a package, then I really cannot understand how you got your system up and running.  I think the helpfulness of the community has given people the idea that Arch is suitable for new linux users.  Historically it never was considered this way. 

While I do welcome any and all people into Arch, to use Arch you have to be willing to learn.  Repeatedly posting the same problem about a package being outdated and expecting a different solution is not learning. 

Finally, to be a leader is to make decisions.  Decisions always piss someone off or else there was no need to make the decision...  Having a strong leader will not stop people complaining.  Nothing will ever stop people from complaining.  We can't be everything for everyone.

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#4 2008-05-04 03:55:36

Allan
Developer
From: Brisbane, AU
Registered: 2007-06-09
Posts: 10,361
Website

Re: Archlinux Leadership

And while I am feeling like having a good rant...

Before people complain about what volunteers haven't done for them, they need to think to themselves: "What have I done to improve Arch Linux".  Here is some ideas for you:

1) Go to http://projects.archlinux.org/ and find a project you think needs improving or fixed.  Submit a patch.  The code may be daunting at first but if you are willing to learn, there are people who will help get you up to scratch.

2) There are many bug reports in the bug tracker.  Check if you can replicate a bug.  Search google for a solution.  With the increase in the numbers of users, there has been an increase in the number of bugs open that hasn't had a matched increase in closures.

3) Help improve the wiki.  Had a problem that you required help for in the forums that is worthy of a wiki page?  Then make it.  Know a language other than English, then help with some translations of the main pages.

4) Actually help others out on the forums.  There a plenty of people here that only respond in threads specifically related to their problem. You have had help, reciprocate.

5) Maintain packages that you use in the AUR.  There is many orphaned packages.  If you use one, adopt it.

There is bound to be more ways of helping out Arch.  The suggestions above have something that can be done by every user.  The more help given, the more time devs have to do package updating!

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#5 2008-05-04 04:01:20

neotuli
Lazy Developer
From: San Francisco, CA
Registered: 2004-07-06
Posts: 1,201
Website

Re: Archlinux Leadership

What Allan said.


More generally (read: not necessarily talking about just this thread), I really have no respect for people that just sit around bitching and do nothing. If you want your bitching to matter to anyone, you really should do something that shows you're someone worth listening to.
EDIT: I should add that that advice applies equally to real-life too.


The suggestion box only accepts patches.

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#6 2008-05-04 04:13:28

bangkok_manouel
Member
From: indicates a starting point
Registered: 2005-02-07
Posts: 1,554

Re: Archlinux Leadership

developmers! developmers! developmers!


All design goals must be phrased in such a way that it is hard to use them as slogans to justify stupidity.

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#7 2008-05-04 05:09:59

cactus
Taco Eater
From: t͈̫̹ͨa͖͕͎̱͈ͨ͆ć̥̖̝o̫̫̼s͈̭̱̞͍̃!̰
Registered: 2004-05-25
Posts: 4,615
Website

Re: Archlinux Leadership

Wait..what?
Is this thread a joke?
Am I on candid camera?
*looks for a camera*

ps. Allan. I stood up at my desk and clapped.


"Be conservative in what you send; be liberal in what you accept." -- Postel's Law
"tacos" -- Cactus' Law
"t̥͍͎̪̪͗a̴̻̩͈͚ͨc̠o̩̙͈ͫͅs͙͎̙͊ ͔͇̫̜t͎̳̀a̜̞̗ͩc̗͍͚o̲̯̿s̖̣̤̙͌ ̖̜̈ț̰̫͓ạ̪͖̳c̲͎͕̰̯̃̈o͉ͅs̪ͪ ̜̻̖̜͕" -- -̖͚̫̙̓-̺̠͇ͤ̃ ̜̪̜ͯZ͔̗̭̞ͪA̝͈̙͖̩L͉̠̺͓G̙̞̦͖O̳̗͍

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#8 2008-05-04 06:07:54

adlucem
Member
Registered: 2007-07-19
Posts: 28

Re: Archlinux Leadership

Hi,

I'm a nobody here, so feel free to write off my comments anyway you like!

Some Archers say: "why can't my country do this for me?"
"Officials" and some other Archers say: "why can't you do it for your country, or at least for yourself?"

Great. As we are seeing these days, the pattern can be repeated again and again.

In this thread I'll stand in the "officials" side, albeit in a different way: look, "officials", if the problem doesn't come from you and you are decided to keep your course regarding Arch, you could see the problem that way: it's all about "expectations management".
And the good news is that it can be helped rather easily (solved is something else, for it doesn't depend on you only) , by changing or adding a few lines to the wiki. Such as:

"Aside from standing up to the KISS principle, Arch is known for being bleeding-edge. However, Arch is understaffed (feel free to to join us! -> link to the projects page, Allan's post or whatever).
We said already that Arch comes with no guarantee. It includes not guaranteeing that every single package will updated the day (nor the months, in some cases) that upstreams devs release a new version of their application.
Should this be a problem for you, you can thank the developers for giving you ABS: it is an easy way to compile anything yourself.
Now, if ABS is above your skill level, or for any reason doesn't suit your needs, then you might ask yourself seriously if Arch is a distro for you, or not. Please be aware that, ultimately, Arch is a Do It Yourself distro. Not DIY as in "choose your sauce" but as in "here are the bones and parts, now  go build your frankenstein". If what's offered by Arch isn't for you, we -and commone sense- encourage you to look elsewhere, because Arch will not change its course and vision for you."

And to DWW's Arch blurb: "if you didn't understand the above [DWW's Arch blurb] upon first reading, Arch probably isn't for you at this time; check us out in a year or two!"

Something along that line. In brief, simply stating things in the wiki in the same clear way you spell them out in the forums. Yes, it might not be the most sexy thing to say, from a PR point of view. But if it is what Arch is, everybody will benefit from having it written upfront loud and clear.

That way, we'll have less threads of the kind "Hey isn't that subpar? Gimme Gimme" "No, help your country and STFU or move elsewhere" kind of threads.

Unless, of course, my premise is flat out wrong ie. the problem is not at all about wrong expectations, about wrong understandings of what Arch is and is not.
It seems to me though, that my premise lies behind a lot of officials's responses. Hence, my suggestion.

Cheers.


"The rules of Go are so elegant, organic and rigorously logical that if intelligent life forms exist elsewhere in the universe they almost certainly play Go." E. Lasker, International Chess Master.

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#9 2008-05-04 06:14:14

coarseSand
Member
From: Ottawa, Canada
Registered: 2008-02-11
Posts: 203

Re: Archlinux Leadership

It's disgusting when you see a vicious, patronizing attack on someone like this, whatever the motivations behind it were. Three cheers to Allan.


vim? EMACS? Pssh, I code in Scribus.

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#10 2008-05-04 06:15:44

kumico
Member
Registered: 2007-09-28
Posts: 224
Website

Re: Archlinux Leadership

i seem to remember a quote, somewhat inspiring at times.
maybe it applies to these posts.
i must admit, I've been guilty of fueling at least one of these threads in the past,
so i hope i don't do the same again...anyway.


Ask not what (your country)Arch Linux can do for you, but what you can do for (your country)Arch Linux!

p.s
    has anyone been thinking about what happened to Gentoo, with regard to the rise in these types of thread as of late?

Last edited by kumico (2008-05-04 06:17:34)

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#11 2008-05-04 06:51:03

Maki
Member
From: Skopje, Macedonia
Registered: 2007-10-16
Posts: 345
Website

Re: Archlinux Leadership

JaDa wrote:

Leadership, you can not run a business/companie/organization if you are not in front of them. The leader and the developmers are responsible for Archlinux.

Sinze Judd pass the torch, many things go to slow down.

Judd said:
"I plan to step down as leader of Arch Linux and pass the torch. The reason for this is that I do not have the time to devote towards a leadership role in a project the size of Arch Linux, and Arch deserves someone who does. It needs some work, it needs some unification, and it needs someone at the helm who can devote a lot of time to it."
http://www.archlinux.org/news/350/

Don't Panic in 2007-10-07 (2007.08-2) was the last official stable release. If a newbie find Archlinux, he will start download this release und run in trouble before he will found out there are another Install CD's in the orbit.

Aaron is a nice kid how just moved out of the egg. Now it is time to be a leader, because Archlinux need a leader. Then you will not read "Someone is doing us bad publicity in todays DWW" or this

>> Hello list,
>> 
>> clamav should be updated.

> Why does the update of clamav take so long ?

> Should I build a new package ?


> --
> regards, TR


Because the developers have a life, if you need a new package use abs and compile it.

in the " [arch-general] ClamAV should be update to 0.93" mailing liste.

For the developmers: Think about that not everybody if a developmer and that 100.000 of Archlinux Users can't build packages. Users like to use it and not to build it. wink

I think: that the developmers do there best and they do a good job big_smile

Please phrakture (Aaron) tell us, are you the leader and can you take the responsible for a leadership ? smile

AFAIK Aaron was talking something about shifting some packages to other repo's, that would be maintained by a group of TU's or something like that, so for example KDE on arch could be shifted totally on kdemod. This would solve the problem of out of date packages. As for wine out of date there is an unofficial repo maintained by Tj.

Last edited by Maki (2008-05-04 06:51:49)


If it ain't broke, broke it then fix it.

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#12 2008-05-04 06:57:43

cactus
Taco Eater
From: t͈̫̹ͨa͖͕͎̱͈ͨ͆ć̥̖̝o̫̫̼s͈̭̱̞͍̃!̰
Registered: 2004-05-25
Posts: 4,615
Website

Re: Archlinux Leadership

spt-ran.jpg


"Be conservative in what you send; be liberal in what you accept." -- Postel's Law
"tacos" -- Cactus' Law
"t̥͍͎̪̪͗a̴̻̩͈͚ͨc̠o̩̙͈ͫͅs͙͎̙͊ ͔͇̫̜t͎̳̀a̜̞̗ͩc̗͍͚o̲̯̿s̖̣̤̙͌ ̖̜̈ț̰̫͓ạ̪͖̳c̲͎͕̰̯̃̈o͉ͅs̪ͪ ̜̻̖̜͕" -- -̖͚̫̙̓-̺̠͇ͤ̃ ̜̪̜ͯZ͔̗̭̞ͪA̝͈̙͖̩L͉̠̺͓G̙̞̦͖O̳̗͍

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#13 2008-05-04 07:03:37

klapmuetz
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 2005-03-19
Posts: 75

Re: Archlinux Leadership

1867859-aafea9d8f22ef858b7326db8acf45d3f.jpeg


Hello girls, I like rock climbing, mountain biking and rafting! Write me!

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#14 2008-05-04 08:28:59

wonder
Developer
From: Bucharest, Romania
Registered: 2006-07-05
Posts: 5,937
Website

Re: Archlinux Leadership

hey guys! stop complaining about out to date packages. if it works and the new version doesn't improve anything/new blazzing features why to update?:)


Give what you have. To someone, it may be better than you dare to think.
Blog

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#15 2008-05-04 08:58:25

Sigi
Member
From: Thurgau, Switzerland
Registered: 2005-09-22
Posts: 1,121

Re: Archlinux Leadership

LOL, your post is at least a million times funnier if one understands your nick big_smile Hilarious!


Dammit, haven't been here in a while. Still rocking Arch. smile

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#16 2008-05-04 09:10:45

zodmaner
Member
Registered: 2007-07-11
Posts: 653

Re: Archlinux Leadership

wonder wrote:

hey guys! stop complaining about out to date packages. if it works and the new version doesn't improve anything/new blazzing features why to update?:)

Also, a lot of packages that have been marked as outdated for quite some time, such as Wesnoth, Sonata, Deluge, etc., got update recently. So it is just a matter of time before WINE, ClamAV and the rest got update as well (though I agree we should update ClamAV as soon as possible due to security reason).

But for now, be patience. wink

Last edited by zodmaner (2008-05-04 09:13:35)


Memento mori

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#17 2008-05-04 09:16:32

sykesm
Member
From: Reading, UK
Registered: 2006-09-03
Posts: 70

Re: Archlinux Leadership

Just want to thank everybody who contributes, and the Devs for a wonderful distro that has given me many hours of pleasure and learning.
I Totally agree with everything Allan said.

I would add, if one wants to be "lead" via the ring through the nose method, M$, would probably be appropriate. No rancour intended, just perhaps a fact. Arch is a framework upon which you create as much or as little as you are able, or talent permits.

Last edited by sykesm (2008-05-04 09:20:52)

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#18 2008-05-04 09:27:34

Mr.Elendig
#archlinux@freenode channel op
From: The intertubes
Registered: 2004-11-07
Posts: 3,714

Re: Archlinux Leadership

Mr.Allan's boss: "Hello, how can I help you?"
Aaron: "This is Mr.Phrakture. Allan needs to get the day off cause he have to update clamav"
Mr.Allan's boss: " Ok, I understand. Sure he can have the day off, with pay of cause."
Aaron: "Thanks, have a nice day"
Mr.Allan's boss: "Bye"


Evil #archlinux@freenode channel op and general support dude.
. files on github, Screenshots, Random pics and the rest

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#19 2008-05-04 09:41:01

hussam
Member
Registered: 2006-03-26
Posts: 522
Website

Re: Archlinux Leadership

wonder wrote:

hey guys! stop complaining about out to date packages. if it works and the new version doesn't improve anything/new blazzing features why to update?:)

In ClamAV's case, the 0.93 release fixes a security issue with the previous release.

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#20 2008-05-04 09:54:15

Allan
Developer
From: Brisbane, AU
Registered: 2007-06-09
Posts: 10,361
Website

Re: Archlinux Leadership

Mr.Elendig wrote:

Mr.Allan's boss: "Hello, how can I help you?"
Aaron: "This is Mr.Phrakture. Allan needs to get the day off cause he have to update clamav"
Mr.Allan's boss: " Ok, I understand. Sure he can have the day off, with pay of cause."
Aaron: "Thanks, have a nice day"
Mr.Allan's boss: "Bye"

Believe it or not, that is actually my bosses name!

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#21 2008-05-04 10:00:42

ornitorrincos
Forum Fellow
From: Bilbao, spain
Registered: 2006-11-20
Posts: 198

Re: Archlinux Leadership

personally, I'm happy with how Arch works


-$: file /dev/zero
/dev/zero: symbolic link to '/dev/brain'

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#22 2008-05-04 10:30:04

Mr.Elendig
#archlinux@freenode channel op
From: The intertubes
Registered: 2004-11-07
Posts: 3,714

Re: Archlinux Leadership

<starwars>I find the lack of response from the OP disturbing</starwars>


Evil #archlinux@freenode channel op and general support dude.
. files on github, Screenshots, Random pics and the rest

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#23 2008-05-04 10:32:06

shining
Pacman Developer
Registered: 2006-05-10
Posts: 2,043

Re: Archlinux Leadership

Mr.Elendig wrote:

<starwars>I find the lack of response from the OP disturbing</starwars>

Be patient, you have to wait for the hangover to go.


pacman roulette : pacman -S $(pacman -Slq | LANG=C sort -R | head -n $((RANDOM % 10)))

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#24 2008-05-04 15:14:40

schivmeister
Developer/TU
From: Singapore
Registered: 2007-05-17
Posts: 971
Website

Re: Archlinux Leadership

Wow, someone running for member of parliament? Where?!


I need real, proper pen and paper for this.

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#25 2008-05-04 15:20:50

rson451
Member
From: Annapolis, MD USA
Registered: 2007-04-15
Posts: 1,233
Website

Re: Archlinux Leadership

shining wrote:

Be patient, you have to wait for the hangover to go.

shining++;  way too many spelling mistakes for that to be taken seriously.


archlinux - please read this and this — twice — then ask questions.
--
http://rsontech.net | http://github.com/rson

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