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#1 2008-05-18 13:17:21

SpookyET
Member
Registered: 2008-01-27
Posts: 410

Make KDEMod the official KDE for Arch Linux

Why isn't KDEMOD the official Arch Linux KDE? Everyone seems to like it.  Does anyone actually use the KDE in extra? If they do, they should not. KDEMod is KISS.

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#2 2008-05-18 13:45:48

lucke
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 2004-11-30
Posts: 4,018

Re: Make KDEMod the official KDE for Arch Linux

I do use official KDE - came back again after KDEmod update ruined my day ;-) And that filemanager spacing bug is annoying too.

KDEmod has its advantages, but some do prefer vanilla builds.

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#3 2008-05-18 13:53:25

Allan
is always right
From: Brisbane, AU
Registered: 2007-06-09
Posts: 10,467
Website

Re: Make KDEMod the official KDE for Arch Linux

There was a survey on here a while ago and it was about 50/50 in KDE vs KDEmod usage.  KDEmod does not fit in with Arch policies (splitting packages which isn't KISS) so I doubt it will ever become the official Arch package.  There is some vague talk about upstream splitting KDE into components.  When that happens, Arch KDE will get split too.  Until that time KDEmod will provide that solution for people who want it.

Last edited by Allan (2008-05-18 13:53:58)

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#4 2008-05-18 14:23:50

ozar
Member
From: USA
Registered: 2005-02-18
Posts: 1,681

Re: Make KDEMod the official KDE for Arch Linux

No... I'd definitely not be pleased to see KDEmod become the default KDE for Arch.  I like a vanilla KDE and Arch currently gives me just that.  It's easy enough for anyone that wants kdemod to install it.

Please, keep them separate.


oz

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#5 2008-05-18 14:23:58

mianka
Member
From: BE LEUVEN
Registered: 2006-05-30
Posts: 209

Re: Make KDEMod the official KDE for Arch Linux

Returned to real KDE after ruined update.I had the same experience with Kubuntu/Debian. The "fathering" distros are generally the more stable ones.

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#6 2008-05-18 14:30:37

funkyou
Member
From: Berlin, DE
Registered: 2006-03-19
Posts: 848
Website

Re: Make KDEMod the official KDE for Arch Linux

lucke wrote:

I do use official KDE - came back again after KDEmod update ruined my day ;-) And that filemanager spacing bug is annoying too.
KDEmod has its advantages, but some do prefer vanilla builds.

Filed a bug? no? oops, nobody can help you smile

Allan wrote:

There was a survey on here a while ago and it was about 50/50 in KDE vs KDEmod usage.  KDEmod does not fit in with Arch policies (splitting packages which isn't KISS) so I doubt it will ever become the official Arch package.  There is some vague talk about upstream splitting KDE into components.  When that happens, Arch KDE will get split too.  Until that time KDEmod will provide that solution for people who want it.

For completeness, here is the survey: http://n8schicht.pytalhost.com/2008/01/ … rch-linux/
A solid 70/23 outcome smile

Well, the KISS argument doesnt count for me here, as Arch itself also has some splitted packages in its core repo (gcc, gcc-libs for example)... I dont want to go into the "why?" and such stuff, i just want to say that argumenting just with a principle is not always the best way, especially when this principle is handled "relaxed" as it seems...

AFAIK _the_ only real argument against a splitted KDE in Arch itself was the maintainability and that you always have to check for changes in the source tarballs on every new release, to see what has been changed... (For example: some new apps going into kdeutils, so you have to modify the PKGBUILD to include them as splitted package)... This argument (coming from tpowa) was the only technical one i've heard about this in a long time...

But remember: This argument above came from somebody who never maintained a splitted KDE... I am doing this for around 2 years now and i have gotten a lot of experience with this... So from my point of view it is definitely maintainable (i am doing i686 all alone, for example), and even the argument about the maintainability isnt really one, because you have to do the check for new stuff inside the tarballs only on every _major_ new KDE release, and it doesnt take much time (i have a script for that)... Between the bugfix-releases there are zero changes in KDE, so you just have to build it like the non-splitted packages...

Oh, and btw, the only issue we have is manpower smile
So if someone wants to help us (we badly need a x86_64 maintainer), just leave us a note smile

Last edited by funkyou (2008-05-18 14:32:10)


want a modular and tweaked KDE for arch? try kdemod

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#7 2008-05-18 15:24:14

Pierre
Developer
From: Bonn
Registered: 2004-07-05
Posts: 1,950
Website

Re: Make KDEMod the official KDE for Arch Linux

It's not only the splitting; afaik kdemod has added some eyecandy patches to kde and qt. Another problem is that they seem to use a custom version of makepkg.

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#8 2008-05-18 15:33:39

ralvez
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2005-12-06
Posts: 1,559
Website

Re: Make KDEMod the official KDE for Arch Linux

The way I look at it is: KDEMod is a fork of the official KDE and should never be set as the default package substituting an official package from which it derives.
Aside from that, I use KDE in all my desktop systems and do not want to have to deal with instabilities created as a result of splitting the official KDE to forge KDEMod.
I see KDEMod as a good alternative but not a default.
R.

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#9 2008-05-18 16:44:16

funkyou
Member
From: Berlin, DE
Registered: 2006-03-19
Posts: 848
Website

Re: Make KDEMod the official KDE for Arch Linux

Pierre wrote:

It's not only the splitting; afaik kdemod has added some eyecandy patches to kde and qt. Another problem is that they seem to use a custom version of makepkg.

The patches are no issue for me, because they can be removed... We have also a new policy in terms of patches for KDE4: From KDE4 on, we will stay on the vanilla path and only include Arch-specific fixes... (and maybe some small patches that are really useful)

And yes, we are using a patched version of makepkg, which has also been submitted to the Arch bugtracker. But if you look at this one, you will notice that 1. the patch is pretty small and easy, and 2. that it could save you guys from doubled work on the packages where you implemented splitting "the arch way" by using 2 different PKGBUILDs for example... IMHO its perfect for localization packages, just as an example smile

ralvez wrote:

The way I look at it is: KDEMod is a fork of the official KDE and should never be set as the default package substituting an official package from which it derives.
Aside from that, I use KDE in all my desktop systems and do not want to have to deal with instabilities created as a result of splitting the official KDE to forge KDEMod.
I see KDEMod as a good alternative but not a default.
R.

Seeing it as a fork is the wrong way, because it isnt a fork... Its just standard KDE tarballs, then some patches and of course splitting (which is done by nearly every distro out there, but not as good as we do it wink (ask me if you want to know more))... As said on our website: The project itself is named KDEmod, but not the software itself... And the splitting itself is not the source of any instability, let me tell you that smile

Most problems coming with KDEmod are due to ...

1. Users not having a clue (read here)
2. Newbies who followed some sort of "hype", fearing to read docu, not having _any_ clue
3. Missing manpower (so updates can be late sometimes, especially on 64bit)
4. We not having a clue (this happens sometimes when we dont now that something has changed (again) in Arch, maybe we need more communication here)
5. Arch itself, it changes fast

Well, if i think about this, i dont want to have KDEmod in the official Arch repos too smile The reason is simple: I see Arch as sort of a "meta distribution", that can be used as a base for my own stuff, simply said... KDEmod is and was a nice hobby for me (learned much stuff) and its perfect as it is now, in a separate repo where people can decide what they want to use...


There are however some things that could be improved...

1. At first, please dont see us as a "3rd party" that is doing some "external packages" for Arch... This could be true for a bigger distro (with less community efforts) or commercial stuff, but not for a community-driven distro like Arch where everyone is basically a contributor...

2. Then, please, file bugs! It really peeves me when people are saying "it breaked" or "it ruined my day" or something, without ever checking our bugtracker or reporting the problem...This is stress ok, so avoid it wink

3. And at last: If Arch developers decide to change PKGBUILD syntax for example, then point it out to everyone, because its a critical thing and you would avoid a lot of hassle and forum posts... Maybe write a news entry or use the .install file coming with pacman... I just dont want to search a lot around again when makepkg has changed and no one told me about that... (Thats my only critic for the Arch devs, otherwise you guys just rock smile)


And again: If someone would like to maintain our 64bit packages, just step up. You will get an account, nice co-devs and every help you might need...

Thanks for reading

Jan


want a modular and tweaked KDE for arch? try kdemod

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#10 2008-05-18 17:01:37

Locri
Member
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: 2005-02-22
Posts: 55

Re: Make KDEMod the official KDE for Arch Linux

SpookyET wrote:

Why isn't KDEMOD the official Arch Linux KDE? Everyone seems to like it.  Does anyone actually use the KDE in extra? If they do, they should not. KDEMod is KISS.

I'd definitely prefer to stick with the official KDE... although KDEMod shows some promise, I don't really like some of the modifications... basic KDE servers me well.  Also, the last time I tried it it was somewhat broken on my system >_<

I could potentially see having KDEMod in the Community repo though.

Last edited by Locri (2008-05-18 17:05:33)

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#11 2008-05-18 17:04:55

Leigh
Member
From: USA
Registered: 2004-06-25
Posts: 533

Re: Make KDEMod the official KDE for Arch Linux

I use kdemod on my main system, and normal kde on a testing system. I guess it should be the other way around, but I have to say, kdemod is still kde. It's not like it's been forged into a independant dm derived from kde. Apart from a few custom themes and improved eyecandy patches, I don't see any difference at all, except that with kdemod I can do without half of what I'm forced to install with kde. The only basic difference is splitting. I can certainly understand maintaining issues, but apart from that, I have trouble understanding how having the option to install kdebase without all the rest of the kde stuff would be a kiss violation. I guess it's a political issue. Setting aside the fact that kdemod even exsists, It's really intersting to know that kde dependencies can be cut in half, and still function perfectly fine.


-- archlinux 是一个极好的 linux

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#12 2008-05-18 18:07:50

gazj
Member
From: /home/gazj -> /uk/cambs
Registered: 2007-02-09
Posts: 679
Website

Re: Make KDEMod the official KDE for Arch Linux

Both work very well.  I do prefer kdemod myself,  I don't want all of kde installed, but is adding 2 lines to pacman.conf really that much hardship?

If kdemod did become default, how long before someone makes a kdevanilla repo smile

I can't see the problem. 

Linux is about freedom and choice.  Make yours smile

Last edited by gazj (2008-05-18 18:14:56)

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#13 2008-05-19 18:01:49

staple
Member
Registered: 2007-09-28
Posts: 81

Re: Make KDEMod the official KDE for Arch Linux

I understand (and agree with) the KISS sentiment of arch linux

however, is there any reason why the vanilla KDE packages couldn't be further granularized like they are in kdemod? Very few people want everything in kdemultimedia or kdepim, for example. I don't think breaking up the packages would violate the KISS philosophy of arch..... just a thought

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#14 2008-05-19 19:42:10

dolby
Member
From: 1992
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 1,581

Re: Make KDEMod the official KDE for Arch Linux

funkyou wrote:

Well, if i think about this, i dont want to have KDEmod in the official Arch repos too smile The reason is simple: I see Arch as sort of a "meta distribution", that can be used as a base for my own stuff, simply said... KDEmod is and was a nice hobby for me (learned much stuff) and its perfect as it is now, in a separate repo where people can decide what they want to use...

Thanks for reading

Jan

Did anyone actually read this? Yes i know the post is a bit long, but it is very well written.


There shouldn't be any reason to learn more editor types than emacs or vi -- mg (1)
[You learn that sarcasm does not often work well in international forums.  That is why we avoid it. -- ewaller (arch linux forum moderator)

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#15 2008-05-19 19:59:24

klixon
Member
From: Nederland
Registered: 2007-01-17
Posts: 525

Re: Make KDEMod the official KDE for Arch Linux

dolby wrote:

Did anyone actually read this? Yes i know the post is a bit long, but it is very well written.

tl; dr

nah, just kidding...
i think it's admirable someone can speak in this way of such an effort of his (and several others?)

Read it

It is indeed a very good post and even though i don't use kde, i'd like to thank you for your work, sincerity and good example for fellow archers like me

I'm even tempted to see what the buzz is all about when i get a higher spec'd box wink


Stand back, intruder, or i'll blast you out of space! I am Klixon and I don't want any dealings with you human lifeforms. I'm a cyborg!

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#16 2008-05-19 20:28:40

finferflu
Forum Fellow
From: Manchester, UK
Registered: 2007-06-21
Posts: 1,899
Website

Re: Make KDEMod the official KDE for Arch Linux

Perhaps not everyone knows that funkyou is actually one (I don't precisely know his position in the project) of the KDEmod developers. So you'd better read his posts tongue


Have you Syued today?
Free music for free people! | Earthlings

"Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -- A. de Saint-Exupery

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#17 2008-05-19 20:50:32

venky80
Member
Registered: 2007-05-13
Posts: 996

Re: Make KDEMod the official KDE for Arch Linux

Funkyou rocks and hell KDEMOD rocks too!
I found his side of the argument to the point and very valid.


DELL XPS 1640 with ATI Mobility Radeon  HD 3670. Arch Linux KDE Minimal Install

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#18 2008-05-19 21:04:14

staple
Member
Registered: 2007-09-28
Posts: 81

Re: Make KDEMod the official KDE for Arch Linux

i agree with funkyou but why not break the vanilla packages apart?

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#19 2008-05-19 21:32:55

skymt
Member
Registered: 2006-11-27
Posts: 443

Re: Make KDEMod the official KDE for Arch Linux

All this could be resolved with an email to Tobias, Arch's KDE maintainer. In the end, it's his decision whether to split the vanilla packages. There's no point debating the point, as if Arch was a democracy or something. wink

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#20 2008-05-19 22:16:52

shining
Pacman Developer
Registered: 2006-05-10
Posts: 2,043

Re: Make KDEMod the official KDE for Arch Linux

SpookyET wrote:

Why isn't KDEMOD the official Arch Linux KDE? Everyone seems to like it.  Does anyone actually use the KDE in extra? If they do, they should not.
KDEMod is KISS.

KISS my ass. Do you have the slightest idea what this stupid buzzword even mean?

kdemod is a fine community project, and Arch actually embraces community driven projects. They are not official, then what? That's not a problem.
If you like kdemod, just give funkyou some help. As he said, he needs more man power. That would be much more productive than stupid threads like this.


pacman roulette : pacman -S $(pacman -Slq | LANG=C sort -R | head -n $((RANDOM % 10)))

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#21 2008-05-19 22:26:29

pressh
Developer/TU
From: Netherlands
Registered: 2005-08-14
Posts: 1,719

Re: Make KDEMod the official KDE for Arch Linux

skymt wrote:

All this could be resolved with an email to Tobias, Arch's KDE maintainer. In the end, it's his decision whether to split the vanilla packages.

there is no need for that, he already told numerous times he will not do it. It is even in the wiki IIRC, so I really don't understand why people keep bringing this up.

skymt wrote:

There's no point debating the point, as if Arch was a democracy or something. wink

A democracy with a leader being able to lift a car above his head?  LOL big_smile

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#22 2008-05-20 00:35:19

Misfit138
Misfit Emeritus
From: USA
Registered: 2006-11-27
Posts: 4,170

Re: Make KDEMod the official KDE for Arch Linux

pressh wrote:
skymt wrote:

All this could be resolved with an email to Tobias, Arch's KDE maintainer. In the end, it's his decision whether to split the vanilla packages.

there is no need for that, he already told numerous times he will not do it. It is even in the wiki IIRC, so I really don't understand why people keep bringing this up.

skymt wrote:

There's no point debating the point, as if Arch was a democracy or something. wink

A democracy with a leader being able to lift a car above his head?  LOL big_smile

Leader? DESPOT!

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#23 2008-05-20 03:07:57

Cerebral
Forum Fellow
From: Waterloo, ON, CA
Registered: 2005-04-08
Posts: 3,108
Website

Re: Make KDEMod the official KDE for Arch Linux

For those of you saying KDEMod is KISS compared to non-split KDE packages, I put this question to you:  Which of the two SOUNDS simpler?

1) Taking the tarballs from upstream KDE, and packaging them directly - one package for each upstream source (one-to-one)

2) Taking those same tarballs, investigating what applications live inside them and their interdependencies (this step must be repeated to some degree each major release), adding more lines to the PKGBUILDs used in (1), and using a patched makepkg to build the whole shebang, resulting in many packages per upstream source (many-to-one)

I would disagree that, compared to the way we do it, KDEmod is simpler.  There certainly are benefits to split packages, but it seems to me that simplicity isn't one of those benefits.

I'm pretty sure that we're going to be solid on this point going forward - KDEmod is a great, and welcome project, but I doubt we'll be pulling it into the 'official' repos any time - and besides, what would be the point?  If you want it, it takes all of a minute to add the kdemod repo to pacman.conf, and there you go.  smile

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#24 2008-05-20 05:07:25

attila
Member
Registered: 2006-11-14
Posts: 293

Re: Make KDEMod the official KDE for Arch Linux

gazj wrote:

Both work very well.  I do prefer kdemod myself,  I don't want all of kde installed, but is adding 2 lines to pacman.conf really that much hardship?

If kdemod did become default, how long before someone makes a kdevanilla repo smile

I can't see the problem. 

Linux is about freedom and choice.  Make yours smile

I agree to 100% and i can't see the problem too. funkyou himselfs suggest to let it be as it is so let us enjoy that we have 2 excellent choices and it is very easy to add or to not add this 2 lines in the conf file.

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#25 2008-05-20 06:01:33

shining
Pacman Developer
Registered: 2006-05-10
Posts: 2,043

Re: Make KDEMod the official KDE for Arch Linux

Cerebral wrote:

For those of you saying KDEMod is KISS compared to non-split KDE packages, I put this question to you:  Which of the two SOUNDS simpler?

1) Taking the tarballs from upstream KDE, and packaging them directly - one package for each upstream source (one-to-one)

2) Taking those same tarballs, investigating what applications live inside them and their interdependencies (this step must be repeated to some degree each major release), adding more lines to the PKGBUILDs used in (1), and using a patched makepkg to build the whole shebang, resulting in many packages per upstream source (many-to-one)

I would disagree that, compared to the way we do it, KDEmod is simpler.  There certainly are benefits to split packages, but it seems to me that simplicity isn't one of those benefits.

I'm pretty sure that we're going to be solid on this point going forward - KDEmod is a great, and welcome project, but I doubt we'll be pulling it into the 'official' repos any time - and besides, what would be the point?  If you want it, it takes all of a minute to add the kdemod repo to pacman.conf, and there you go.  smile

Waoh, I had started to write a post exactly like that (which of the two sounds simpler? 1) ... 2) ... conclusion : kdemod is not simple but still a very nice community project)
Finally it was a good thing to cancel it, you wrote the same in better, thanks smile


pacman roulette : pacman -S $(pacman -Slq | LANG=C sort -R | head -n $((RANDOM % 10)))

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