You are not logged in.

#1 2008-05-30 10:31:22

evol
Member
From: Ireland
Registered: 2007-06-27
Posts: 53
Website

Haiku / BeOS

I was just wondering what everyones opinions were on the Haiku project: http://www.haiku-os.org/

They're slowly but surely resurrecting BeOS. I never actually used that operating system, but I've read quite a bit about it - and it seems it was a mixture of bad luck and bad decision making which led to its ultimate downfall, but the OS itself was quite capable.

What most interests me about the project, and the reason I hope they're successful, is the different ideology at work behind it.

For example, they aren't interested in having a gazillion different ways of doing the same task, like Linux has. They also aren't particularly focused on porting Linux apps over, although I've heard they're going to, or are using Pacman (good choice!), instead what they want is to develop their own applications which are so good, people will want to try the OS out.

Another aspect is the size.

Apparently the uncompressed image is only circa 60M - which I think is incredible.

I love linux, and I love its endless configurability and the fact that I, the user am in pretty much complete control of how my OS, looks, behaves and runs. But I think there's plenty of room out there for an OS with a different way of doing things, that just works out of the box. If and when Haiku reaches a final release stage, I think there is the potential to attract a lot of people over from windows, provided that it offers the basic applications that those users need on a day to day basis, like firefox, thunderbird, skype etc. If they can provide an additional killer app of their own making, then even better.

While a lot of us like the options linux gives us, most users probably don't even want to think about what window manager they're going to use, if they even know what a WM is in the first place.

I wish them luck.


-//------------------/------>

Offline

#2 2008-05-30 10:46:18

Allan
Developer
From: Brisbane, AU
Registered: 2007-06-09
Posts: 10,434
Website

Re: Haiku / BeOS

I haven't tried Haiku in a while but I do enjoy trying out alternate operating systems.  It looks like it has come along quite a bit since I last did. 

I also like Syllable (http://www.syllable.org/) which boots really, really fast!

Offline

#3 2008-05-30 10:47:22

clarence
Member
From: fremantle.au
Registered: 2005-10-12
Posts: 294

Re: Haiku / BeOS

from my perspective (after using beos rather a lot back in the days when beinc released it for free) beos was and still is awesome. the best os i have used. and also the funniest. humour and fun was a big part of the entire beos scene back then.

beinc had some awesome technology but ultimately they had a focus shift into what they called internet devices (or something like that). computers that were designed to browse the web and not much else, if i remember correctly.... right at the very time when they should have been moving full steam for the desktop market. and also right at the time when the big players like adobe and steinberg were getting very interested in beos.

the haiku team have done an amazing amount of work for such a small project.


fck art, lets dance.

Offline

#4 2008-05-30 14:24:03

whompus
Member
From: Durham. UK
Registered: 2005-08-09
Posts: 245

Re: Haiku / BeOS

I've still got my BeOS cd's going back to version3 and the beos bible. Enjoyed using the system, it was quite amusing having 10 videos and 10 music files playing at the same time on an old dual 400Mhz system, only stopped playing around when my newer hardware was not supported. Lack of apps was/is a major problem.
Currently have a haiku vmware virtual machine setup as I like to keep a check on it's progress.

Offline

#5 2008-05-30 16:33:15

NecroRomancist
Member
Registered: 2005-01-02
Posts: 53

Re: Haiku / BeOS

Allan wrote:

I haven't tried Haiku in a while but I do enjoy trying out alternate operating systems.  It looks like it has come along quite a bit since I last did. 

I also like Syllable (http://www.syllable.org/) which boots really, really fast!

I also really like Syllable.
I've been trying to "port" applications to it, most of the time, its just a matter of recompiling them, as it is a POSIX compliant OS smile
Also having a true,and simple, system API is a real plus in my opinion. Every application you code, will work on every Syllable installation, and from a programmer's point of view that is the best thing a system can offer.

I love linux, and I love its endless configurability and the fact that I, the user am in pretty much complete control of how my OS, looks, behaves and runs

Totally agree smile But in the end most people,read non computer enthusiasts, won't care about that they just want "something that works and i don't have to care much about it". Maybe the reason why <insert_DE_here>Ubuntu is more popular than Arch..

Just my 0,02 €

Last edited by NecroRomancist (2008-05-30 16:33:42)

Offline

#6 2008-05-30 17:10:42

sniffles
Member
Registered: 2008-01-23
Posts: 275

Re: Haiku / BeOS

I have to admit that in past years I have not bothered to look for OS other than Linux & BSD (I knew the name of various others, but I didn't care to look deeper).

Haiku looks rather interesting, it's too bad a release doesn't yet exist. In recent times I've been looking for a Linux distribution that strives for technical excellence [good, clean, portable code without ignoring security, something who's main focus is not a large user base and high popularity or high distrowatch ranking but rather quality provided to users who know what they are doing. I could go on with a very long list of my understanding of 'technical excellence' but this is not the thread/forum(?)]. I'm kind of sorry to say I don't think I've found such a distribution yet, and I have tried many, read about many more..

So on this note, I'm hoping Haiku will have much luck, and I'm anxiously awaiting a release. With college summer-break comming up, perhaps I'll take even more interest in the project and consider helping out with code (provided I *can* help out).

P.S.: I know Haiku is not a Linux distribution, in case I make it sound like I think it is.

Last edited by sniffles (2008-05-30 17:52:45)

Offline

#7 2008-05-30 17:23:36

Misfit138
Misfit Emeritus
From: USA
Registered: 2006-11-27
Posts: 4,170

Re: Haiku / BeOS

NecroRomancist wrote:
Allan wrote:

I love linux, and I love its endless configurability and the fact that I, the user am in pretty much complete control of how my OS, looks, behaves and runs

Totally agree smile But in the end most people,read non computer enthusiasts, won't care about that they just want "something that works and i don't have to care much about it". Maybe the reason why <insert_DE_here>Ubuntu is more popular than Arch..

Just my 0,02 €

Interesting thoughts.
I don't "love linux". I don't. It is not an innotvative, state-of-the-art kernel. It is a good kernel, but not a great one, but it is also all we've got/the best compromise available. I do love Arch, though. Let me explain.

There are over 300 distributions available. This fragmentation is a weakness overall (yes, diversity can be viewed as a strength, but 300+ is spreading it too thin). Of the handful of quality distributions available, how many can be installed and used effectively by joe sixpack, without having to scour google and the distro forums to deal with the issues that will invariably pop up?

While BSD is a more solid system, it can be a bear to get configured for desktop work, unless it likes your hardware...and often it may not like it.
BeOs/Haiku, OpenSolaris, ReactOS, etc each have their strengths, but the linux kernel and userpspace development has become such a juggernaut of momentum, especially the Ubuntu phenomenon, that it may be "too late" for them at this time.

For an enthusiast, you can't do much better than Arch. It does things the BSD way a lot of the time, but offers the advantages that the linux kernel offers; less finicky about hardware and more hackers interested in desktop functionality.
Nothing is perfect, but I think Arch fits into a niche that combines the best of everything available.
Hey, in a perfect world, there would be no more mechanical hard drives, we'd be moving to MRAM and beyond, and cpu architectures and kernels would be designed from the ground up by the Arch developers.
smile
I would love to see GNU/HURD, Haiku and Solaris leap forward and steal the crown from that egomaniac Linus...but I am cynical in this instance, so I doubt it will happen.

Offline

#8 2008-05-30 17:57:17

sniffles
Member
Registered: 2008-01-23
Posts: 275

Re: Haiku / BeOS

Misfit138 wrote:

I don't "love linux". I don't. It is not an innotvative, state-of-the-art kernel. It is a good kernel, but not a great one, but it is also all we've got/the best compromise available.

Couldn't agree more, yet it's not because of the "user friendliness" issue, if anything I think the whole "desktop linux" thing that's going on these days is doing more harm than good, more and more distributions desperatly trying to make GNOME/KDE more attractive and try to steal the glory from Ubuntu.

Offline

#9 2008-05-30 18:29:25

MONODA
Member
Registered: 2008-02-09
Posts: 256

Re: Haiku / BeOS

Interesting thoughts.
I don't "love linux". I don't. It is not an innotvative, state-of-the-art kernel. It is a good kernel, but not a great one, but it is also all we've got/the best compromise available. I do love Arch, though. Let me explain.

There are over 300 distributions available. This fragmentation is a weakness overall (yes, diversity can be viewed as a strength, but 300+ is spreading it too thin). Of the handful of quality distributions available, how many can be installed and used effectively by joe sixpack, without having to scour google and the distro forums to deal with the issues that will invariably pop up?

While BSD is a more solid system, it can be a bear to get configured for desktop work, unless it likes your hardware...and often it may not like it.
BeOs/Haiku, OpenSolaris, ReactOS, etc each have their strengths, but the linux kernel and userpspace development has become such a juggernaut of momentum, especially the Ubuntu phenomenon, that it may be "too late" for them at this time.

For an enthusiast, you can't do much better than Arch. It does things the BSD way a lot of the time, but offers the advantages that the linux kernel offers; less finicky about hardware and more hackers interested in desktop functionality.
Nothing is perfect, but I think Arch fits into a niche that combines the best of everything available.
Hey, in a perfect world, there would be no more mechanical hard drives, we'd be moving to MRAM and beyond, and cpu architectures and kernels would be designed from the ground up by the Arch developers.

I would love to see GNU/HURD, Haiku and Solaris leap forward and steal the crown from that egomaniac Linus...but I am cynical in this instance, so I doubt it will happen.

Couldn't agree more, yet it's not because of the "user friendliness" issue, if anything I think the whole "desktop linux" thing that's going on these days is doing more harm than good, more and more distributions desperatly trying to make GNOME/KDE more attractive and try to steal the glory from Ubuntu.

That is exactly what I think. Its been a while since I have checked out haiku, it looks like it has some great potential. It sounds really interesting that they are not using the alraedy existing toolkits and windowing system. Just one question, is the kernel micro or monolithic? (it would be really nice to see them implement something similar to what MINIX 3 has done (minix 3 uses a microkernel and can reload a crashed driver automatically without the user noticing.) *Bookmarked*

Offline

#10 2008-05-30 19:44:01

wuischke
Member
From: Suisse Romande
Registered: 2007-01-06
Posts: 630

Re: Haiku / BeOS

I would have switched long ago if it wasn't for driver (and application) support. I'm more familiar with Syllable than with Haiku, am very disappointed by the hardware requirements (and support) of OpenSolaris and every version of OpenBSD has some issue which prevents me from using it.

I would love to get a RISC system with a micro kernel OS, but it's not easy to find an affordable non-x86 board and hardware support of most operating system is not good enough for me. sad

Funny enough, I got myself a very old computer from 1999/2000 (Celeron 350, 256MB, 82810 graphics) to ensure hardware compatibility and only very recent versions of xf86-video-intel allow 1680x1050, although they will crash with direct rendering enabled...

Offline

#11 2008-05-30 21:34:15

NecroRomancist
Member
Registered: 2005-01-02
Posts: 53

Re: Haiku / BeOS

I don't "love linux". I don't. It is not an innotvative, state-of-the-art kernel. It is a good kernel, but not a great one, but it is also all we've got/the best compromise available. I do love Arch, though.

I agree with what u said Misfit138 but when i said i loved (maybe a strong word) Linux i meant i love the control i have over the system. And with your words on Arch i couldn't agree more. I installed 0.7 beta 2 a while back and never looked back, my current installation is derivate of that one (Install Once Pacman Forever).
Maybe in a few years i'll move on to Syllable, but till then Arch smile

Offline

#12 2008-05-30 21:57:04

dunc
Member
From: Glasgow, UK
Registered: 2007-06-18
Posts: 557

Re: Haiku / BeOS

wuischke wrote:

I would have switched long ago if it wasn't for driver (and application) support.

If it ever gets that support, Linux distros like Ubuntu had better watch out. A Syllable that works on a wide range of hardware would be a far less fearsome prospect than any form of Linux for the non-technical, I'm sure.


0 Ok, 0:1

Offline

#13 2008-05-31 00:56:05

evol
Member
From: Ireland
Registered: 2007-06-27
Posts: 53
Website

Re: Haiku / BeOS

NecroRomancist wrote:

I don't "love linux". I don't. It is not an innotvative, state-of-the-art kernel. It is a good kernel, but not a great one, but it is also all we've got/the best compromise available. I do love Arch, though.

I agree with what u said Misfit138 but when i said i loved (maybe a strong word) Linux i meant i love the control i have over the system. And with your words on Arch i couldn't agree more. I installed 0.7 beta 2 a while back and never looked back, my current installation is derivate of that one (Install Once Pacman Forever).

That sums up what I meant, I didn't mean love, it was more flippant than an actual declaration tongue

I agree with Dunc as well, the real pressure will be on the likes of Ubuntu from straightforward, dedicated desktop o/s's like Syllable and Haiku.

For the record, after very little tinkering and fuss, I installed Haiku (remember it's pre alpha) on my laptop, on a tiny <500mb partition.

The only outstanding issues that are clear from the outset are what seems to be a lack of wireless stack, and the relatively minor issue of 1280x800 support for my intel card, so just stuck it into 1024x768. But as someone who remembers both situations before the various drivers/patches became available for linux, it's a minor issue. So I'm just using an ethernet cable and it's all behaving pretty much fine.

Undoubtedly there's a long long way to go, but the signs are very encouraging.

I have an odd way of ending a night out drinking...

Anyway

Last edited by evol (2008-05-31 01:21:35)


-//------------------/------>

Offline

#14 2008-05-31 13:38:55

Misfit138
Misfit Emeritus
From: USA
Registered: 2006-11-27
Posts: 4,170

Re: Haiku / BeOS

Just to clarify, I didn't mean to sound admonishing toward either one of you. wink
I'm also glad you guys agree with me; too often I feel like I'm the only one who shares my opinions. tongue

Offline

#15 2008-05-31 15:40:06

Stalafin
Member
From: Berlin, Germany
Registered: 2007-10-26
Posts: 616

Re: Haiku / BeOS

Ah, could you guys give a brief introduction to what exactly Haiku is and what it does? From your explanations I can see that it's quite a nice project which will be able to compete with those Linux distributions aiming for accessibility to non-technical people  (in terms of user friendliness?).

But why and how does Haiku accomplish that? What is it that makes it a special OS?

Offline

#16 2008-05-31 17:27:00

_Marco_
Member
Registered: 2008-04-21
Posts: 242

Re: Haiku / BeOS

I really like to have more choices .... so one more is always better...
I've tried (on virtualbox) haiku and solaris.. they seems cool but I don't see VERY impressive differences with linux (but I'm not so expert and so maybe I simply didn't see them..)
I saw the misfit post and so I thought... "would be possible, if an alternative kernel become better than linux, make arch run over it? would it be so complicate?"
just wondering anyway .. arch already rocks as it is smile

Offline

#17 2008-05-31 17:35:56

NecroRomancist
Member
Registered: 2005-01-02
Posts: 53

Re: Haiku / BeOS

Syllable Feautures

Syllable is still being developed, but it is already relatively stable and mature, including the following features:

    * Operating system optimised for desktop computers.
    * Easy to use graphical work environment with consistent, simple but powerful interface. Text console emulation is available as extra within the graphical environment.
    * High response speed to user input, even under load.
    * Fast start-up (under ten seconds on modern computers) and shut-down (around five seconds).
    * Based on the AtheOS operating system. Multi-user. Memory protection. Pre-emptive. Kernel threading. Excellent support for SMP and multi-core systems. Originally inspired by AmigaOS.
    * Under development. Usability depends on your requirements.

Requirements

    * Runs on Intel-compatible PCs in 32-bits mode.
    * Minimum requirements are a Pentium processor and 32 MB memory.
    * Base installation takes around 250 MB disk space, including a collection of applications.
    * Hardware support is not bad, but not comprehensive, either. Support for a range of common hardware devices, including video, network and sound cards, USB devices, printers and scanners, from manufacturers such as Intel, AMD, 3Com, nVidia, and Creative (see Syllable Hardware for a comprehensive list).

Use

    * Fully automatic hardware detection and redetection when you change hardware.
    * Internet access through an Ethernet network (PPP and PPPoE are not fully supported yet, but are available in a test version).
    * Fast, modern web browser (ABrowse), based on the Apple WebKit engine, an e-mail application (Whisper) and a number of other native Syllable applications.
    * An integrated multi-media framework based on plug-ins. Plug-ins such as FFMPEG and Ogg Vorbis are included, supporting many audio and video formats.
    * An audio player, a multi-media player and a format conversion tool based on the integrated multi-media framework.
    * Graphical preferences tools for networking, display preferences, user administration, audio stream mixing and volume setting and so forth.
    * A dock and application launcher (like the Windows Start button).
    * A journalled 64-bits file system (AFS), modelled on the BeOS file system. FAT file systems from Windows are also supported, and even the BeOS file system itself. The Windows NTFS and Linux Ext2/3FS formats can be read, but not written yet.

Software management

    * Very easy software installation and management.
    * Drivers and plug-ins are one or two files that can simply be dropped into place.
    * Binary compatibility across Syllable versions: you are not forced to upgrade the system and applications together, but can upgrade them separately when you want to.
    * Binary compatibility for drivers: the kernel has stable ABIs, so you can usually install and upgrade the system and drivers separately if you want to.
    * Easy system updates between Syllable versions, preserving user data and most preference settings.

Software development

    * Self-hosting development environment.
    * An object-oriented, message-passing C++ programming API, modelled on BeOS.
    * Uses the ORCA clone of the REBOL programming language as a high-level semantic layer for communication and scripting.
    * High level of POSIX compliance. We strive to comply 100% where it doesn't compromise the unique features of Syllable's design.
    * Cross-platform development is supported through ORCA, POSIX, the GNU stack and the SDL subsystem.

Taken from here  http://web.syllable.org/pages/about.html

Haiku Feautures

Please look here http://www.haiku-os.org/about/faq


On one hand Haiku is derived from BeOS so it has a lot of applications inherited from BeOS, on the other hand Syllable is in a far more advanced stage than Haiku.  Haiku due to its roots also has a lot more momentum but nevertheless I'm really looking forward to the next version of Syllable.

Some videos

Haiku

http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=WBq56Ovx38I

Syllable

http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=3qJNDoh1-Zw

These videos may be a rather old but the give an idea of how they work smile

Offline

#18 2008-05-31 17:53:57

skymt
Member
Registered: 2006-11-27
Posts: 443

Re: Haiku / BeOS

Stalafin wrote:

Ah, could you guys give a brief introduction to what exactly Haiku is and what it does? From your explanations I can see that it's quite a nice project which will be able to compete with those Linux distributions aiming for accessibility to non-technical people  (in terms of user friendliness?).

But why and how does Haiku accomplish that? What is it that makes it a special OS?

Haiku is really just an open-source clone of BeOS, so you're really asking what makes it special. That's a complicated question, and it would be easy to give too many details, so here's the summary: BeOS, unlike any popular modern OS, was designed from the ground up for desktop use on modern PCs.

* Multithreading is assumed. Unix was designed for computers that were just one step up from batch processors. You gave it a job, and it tells you when it's done. There's not much point in doing several things at once at a granularity lower than the process (it's multi-user, so it needs to run several processes simultaneously). Modern GUI desktops, on the other hand, benefit greatly from multithreading. You don't want to wait for an application to finish one job, you want to be able to do something else (even in the same application) while it's working.
* A GUI is assumed. Unix can be bipolar at times between the command-line and X worlds. Tools are often written first for the command-line, then given small front-ends. If the command-line tool wasn't designed well, the GUI "leaks". For example, look at Synaptic. It's one of the nicest GUI front-ends I've seen, but there's a leak in the progress dialog: you click the triangle to get an advanced view and are confronted with a terminal running apt in the background.
* Object-oriented programming is assumed. The popular desktop systems were created prior to the invention (Unix) or popularization (DOS/Windows) of the paradigm, so the basic system APIs are purely procedural.
* Few backwards-compatibility worries. It was a totally new OS, so the designers were free to try cool new things. Probably the coolest example is BFS, the filesystem. 64-bit, journaling, huge file sizes, blah, blah, blah. Oh, and extensible metadata with database-like query capabilities. Picture your typical iTunes-style music manager. Now imagine all that information being in the file system. Now picture using generalized tools to do complex searches of that information. Plus your photos, your documents, anything, really. All that is in the filesystem. Microsoft has been developing a similar concept, WinFS, since around 2000 and has yet to release it. Be had it in 1997. Can you tell I really, really love this idea?

Those are the broad strokes, I'm sure one of the rabid Be fans around here can fill in some more detail and fix my likely numerous mistakes.

Offline

#19 2008-05-31 18:01:13

skottish
Forum Fellow
From: Here
Registered: 2006-06-16
Posts: 7,931

Re: Haiku / BeOS

skymt,

Your explanation of BeOS is intriguing. Have you used Haiku? If so, does it compare well? Was there ever "enough" software for BeOS to "get started"?

Last edited by skottish (2008-05-31 18:01:42)

Offline

#20 2008-05-31 18:17:34

Misfit138
Misfit Emeritus
From: USA
Registered: 2006-11-27
Posts: 4,170

Re: Haiku / BeOS

Every 6 months or so, I check on these type of projects. (ReactOS, Haiku, Syllable, OPenSolaris) I can't wait for one to step up and become a practical alternative. Should be fun.

Offline

#21 2008-05-31 18:24:13

whompus
Member
From: Durham. UK
Registered: 2005-08-09
Posts: 245

Re: Haiku / BeOS

There is a vid on youtube that may explain a bit more the vid is in 2 parts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eMGbDJmgv0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ticLQ4T_ … re=related

The main goal of BeOS was the way it handled multimedia and Haiku is building using the BeOS technologies.

Offline

#22 2008-05-31 18:42:44

skymt
Member
Registered: 2006-11-27
Posts: 443

Re: Haiku / BeOS

I've tested Haiku in a virtual machine several times, but never had a chance to try the original BeOS. Most of what I know about it is from reading.

My experience with Haiku has been generally positive. The UI is well-designed and they obviously put a lot of work into polish and responsiveness. There are a couple big issues keeping me from adopting it as my desktop. The first one is obviously application compatibility. Most significant applications (Firefox, OO.o, etc) don't yet run (reliably or at all) on Haiku and aren't likely to any time soon: it would be silly to try supporting a moving target like Haiku. Most of the apps you can rely on are the simple ones developed alongside Haiku. BeOS had a decent software library back in the day, especially in the area of multimedia, but the modern software you expect to run hasn't been ported and probably never will be (why support a dead OS?).

The second issue is stability: Haiku is pre-alpha software.

Offline

#23 2008-06-01 00:00:04

dunc
Member
From: Glasgow, UK
Registered: 2007-06-18
Posts: 557

Re: Haiku / BeOS

NecroRomancist wrote:

* Uses the ORCA clone of the REBOL programming language as a high-level semantic layer for communication and scripting.

I didn't know that. Keeping the Carl Sassenrath connection alive then, if very tenuously. smile


0 Ok, 0:1

Offline

#24 2008-06-01 03:58:37

clarence
Member
From: fremantle.au
Registered: 2005-10-12
Posts: 294

Re: Haiku / BeOS

check out http://www.bebits.com/ for all your beos software needs...


fck art, lets dance.

Offline

#25 2008-06-04 21:42:02

hb
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 2008-02-02
Posts: 13
Website

Re: Haiku / BeOS

clarence wrote:

check out http://www.bebits.com/ for all your beos software needs...

and http://www.haikuware.com/ for your haiku software needs smile
There you also can find a (unofficial) vmware-image pre-installed with some development tools etc. (http://www.haikuware.com/view-details/d … age-weekly)

I used beos for quite some months as my main os back in 2001/02, but the driver and app situation drove me to linux... i don't love it either but it's the lesser evil. Now as i'm playing around with audio on linux i just think it's meant for servers and every effort on bringing it to the desktop is wasted and should go into haiku or something more specialized... hmm

Last edited by hb (2008-06-04 21:42:40)

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB