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#26 2008-06-04 22:50:35

X/ax
Member
From: Oost vlaanderen, Belgium
Registered: 2008-01-13
Posts: 275
Website

Re: Haiku / BeOS

I've seen haiku a while around now (even seen it @fosdem).
I think it's a really attractive alternative, but than again, I saw opensolaris on fosdem too!
To my regard - it's those two that will make the difference in the future, they both show potential.
Downside to "concurrency" on those two is: OpenSolaris is supported by Sun. Somehow, somewhere in me, I still think commercial support is a great plus in any operating system.
The downside to these projects: You're pinning down on one "vendor" again, as in the microsoft days.
At this point, haiku will most certainly be more into the free side, it'll give more "vendors".
As where OpenSolaris seems to become more of a Sun-only issue. Forgive me if I'm wrong...

At this moment, I'm attempting to install opensolaris on a virtualbox.
After that, I'll try out haiku (for the first time, however I would've loved doing that earlier)
I'm very curious as how it will grow. [Curious both as excited smile]


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#27 2008-06-04 23:27:55

Redroar
Member
Registered: 2008-03-17
Posts: 200

Re: Haiku / BeOS

It's true - Linux is a Server OS that has managed to be beaten into a desktop. But when you've got enough people whacking at it, eventually you can turn a house into a boat...which is what's happened in Linux. Enough people have put enough effort into it to make is a good desktop OS. But if you had 1/10th the number of people working on Haiku/Syllable then it would be twice as good as Linux on the desktop. No doubt about it. But it has 1/100th the number of people, so it just doesn't have the ability to catch-up.

The fact that Linux uses the same kernel for the desktop and the server is it's greatest downside IMO. If it were more specialized, then I think it would perform at a much higher level.

EDIT: On the topic of OpenSolaris, I don't see much wrong. It looks very much like any other *nix to me, though. Of course the minimum memory requirement of 512MB is off-putting...

Last edited by Redroar (2008-06-04 23:49:50)


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#28 2008-06-05 03:54:54

clarence
Member
From: fremantle.au
Registered: 2005-10-12
Posts: 294

Re: Haiku / BeOS

hb wrote:
clarence wrote:

check out http://www.bebits.com/ for all your beos software needs...

and http://www.haikuware.com/ for your haiku software needs smile
There you also can find a (unofficial) vmware-image pre-installed with some development tools etc. (http://www.haikuware.com/view-details/d … age-weekly)

I used beos for quite some months as my main os back in 2001/02, but the driver and app situation drove me to linux... i don't love it either but it's the lesser evil. Now as i'm playing around with audio on linux i just think it's meant for servers and every effort on bringing it to the desktop is wasted and should go into haiku or something more specialized... hmm

wow thanks for that senryu link i hadn't seen or heard about this before smile


fck art, lets dance.

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#29 2008-06-05 04:44:06

arkay
Member
Registered: 2008-05-23
Posts: 79

Re: Haiku / BeOS

Seems to me that the biggest issue is that the vast majority of development going on in the alternative OS market lies in the OS itself.  That's all well and good but at the end of the day it's what you can do with that OS that counts.  It's no use to have a fast booting, slick kernel with the best pre-emptive scheduling known to man if there's not an app to run on it.  What's needed is fantastic platform agnostic applications.  I love the freedom of Linux but in the end what I can do with Linux is limited by the applications available to it.  Whether I install ubuntu, OpenSuse or Arch the only real difference as an end user is how fast it runs and how easy it was to install.  Neither of those affect Joe average.  What does affect Joe average is whether he has easy to use applications that do what is required.  Yet globally there are literally thousands of people working on the "distro" rather then the applications that the distro runs.

To me computing (since the old Amiga days) seems to have gone backwards in every sense.  It's fallen to a "lowest common denominator" position of "can if surf the net, send email and play music/videos".  I'd have thought modern computing would be so much further past these basics by now yet that's all anyone is focussed on.  It's too generic.  I blame windows for this.  MS have sucked the life out of any truly innovative company and squashed the competition that was good at making specific case specialised software (like video editing suites), to replace it with generic apps that run on their generic platform that just don't perform well enough.  Meanwhile the alternative crowd (linux included), run about trying to mimic this behavior, albeit on better base OS's.  Trapped between being enough "Windows alike" to gain a user base and different enough to perhaps do something better or different.

The fun seems to have gone along with advancement.  It's all about political wrangling and sales (or market share) and no-one, even the Linux world, appears interested in developing applications that add to the enjoyment of everyday life.

It's a hard thing to explain in a forum post but I had an example a little while ago. My wife gets up at a different time each day so she has to set her alarm every night.  Why isn't it possible for her to use a calender application to set her daily schedule and the alarm clock automatically wakes her each day at the correct time based on her appointments?

I thought about it for a while and came to the conclusion that exactly that sort of life aiding technology doesn't exist because there are too many formats, too many inconsistencies between formats/software etc, too many patents and licences.  No one can create anything of use because no one co-operates in the computing industry anymore.  Everyone competes on their own platform in isolation and only those with any market share or enough $$$ get noticed and used.  Everything is proprietary and you have to invest heavily in one vendors solution to get any extra functionality.  If that vendor disappears then you're stuffed.

It amazes me that the idea of "the digital home" currently consists of an internet connection and a PVR when we should by now be well more advanced in the space of house wide computer controlled devices and electronics that actually make life good.  I can't see any of these alternates providing anything really useful to the world until they stop competing like religions at the OS level and start co-operating at the application layer.

Anyhow... I apologise for the rant and getting slightly OT.

Cheers,

Arkay.

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#30 2008-06-05 05:55:13

pauldonnelly
Member
Registered: 2006-06-19
Posts: 776

Re: Haiku / BeOS

arkay wrote:

It's a hard thing to explain in a forum post but I had an example a little while ago. My wife gets up at a different time each day so she has to set her alarm every night.  Why isn't it possible for her to use a calender application to set her daily schedule and the alarm clock automatically wakes her each day at the correct time based on her appointments?

Can't she use her phone for that?

But, to your main point, I think part of the problem is that developing applications isn't easy or fun. Without an ulterior motive (such as winning market share for your pet OS), no one is going to go write the kinds of apps we might all like to have unless they really need it. If we here on Linux had Visual Basic or Hypercard it might be different.

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#31 2008-06-05 07:30:58

arkay
Member
Registered: 2008-05-23
Posts: 79

Re: Haiku / BeOS

I guess she could use a phone or a PDA for that but that's not really what I meant.  Was more talking fixed technology in the house as apposed to mobile tech.  Take it a step further and it might be nice for me to tell my home server to wake her by piping a random selection of her favorite music out her bedside alarm clock at the right time in the morning.  That's the sort of functionality that I think we should be seeing by now and it shouldn't be a case of configuring the networks required, fussing with wireless setups, getting the right sort of streaming going and dealing with all the configuration and code required to make it happen.  The great thing about Linux is that you can given enough time and understanding develop methods to do just what I'm talking about but that doesn't make it readily available as a home commodity.

You're also correct in that people only develop apps because they want them.  Particularly in the open source sense.  My point though, is even if I do want them.  It's damn hard to do.  Choosing first what OS to base an app on, then wading through endless options in terms of what language, what protocol, what API, scripted/compiled, oo or procedural etc etc and in the end you'll probably end up with something that works for you but is very difficult to export to someone else.

There's little uniformity.  It used to be (a long time ago), that formats were open to an extent and interfaces were published and documented.  When you wrote a piece of code it could be kept, improved and easily implemented elsewhere but these days someone might write a great piece of code in Java that doesn't help me developing in C or python for example. 

I don't know if I'm getting across what I mean but essentially I'd have thought by now that base functionality code, almost like an agnostic API would be available at the device level.  i.e.  To write the above app I should be able to say in my calender application "when event a occurs send music y to alarm clock 1 in bedroom x" and everything else is taken care of by the well written and generic api's in the respective devices.  That could be achieved if there was some sort of interoperability standard that was available.  Software authors could then compete on the basis of new functionality rather than on whether or not their software can actually run on the current hardware with relatively few bugs.

It seems to me that writing the code should be far easier than it is and that because of the rate the hardware turns over we never really get to benefit from the code that was written prior.  i.e.  Once base functions are designed, written and well optimised there should be no need to re-write them very often.  You can then build on that again and again and write complex applications without the need to re-visit or re-develop the code that was previously optimised.  Because hardware is forever changing though it seems that by and large each piece of code is often re-written and each group trying to do something different are again starting from scratch.  If that makes any sense.

Unfortunately things seem to have just gotten far more tedious and complex in terms of software development rather than going the other way.

Windows doesn't help by virtue of the way older software just simply doesn't run on newer hardware (including drivers for older hardware).  Driven by the profit that can be made on every upgrade cycle.

It's sickening that all those man hours are lost for no benefit other than lining the pockets of the hardware manufacturers and corporate software houses.

As an open source effort trying to keep up with the hardware upgrade cycle is pointless.  We should be aiming at developing a perfect OS on a perfect open hardware platform. Implementing open standards and creating innovation while the corporates flounder around miking their customer bases (with the same crap re-dressed every couple of years).  It would take time but eventually the corporates wouldn't be able to compete with the free alternatives.  At the moment Linux and the alternate OS's are trying to do everything that commercial OS's can do on every piece of hardware available.  I think it'd be better to be vastly superior than commercial OS's on a subset of hardware.

Cheers,

Arkay.

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#32 2008-06-05 10:51:02

X/ax
Member
From: Oost vlaanderen, Belgium
Registered: 2008-01-13
Posts: 275
Website

Re: Haiku / BeOS

I think it's a nice rant, and basically powerful in the idea.
However, such things must start somewhere, and basically, in the "Linux world" there's just everyone pinned down on their distro. (If I'm not discussing with some windows user how crappy his vista really is, I'm discussing with someone using ubuntu why I think ubuntu is no real alternative to archlinux)
This competition (by far healthy competition if I might say so) is really not helping in the quest for good open standards. We are stagnating in the shadow of proprietary software, because we are both the parents and the children of the proprietary software (before MS was out there, hobby programmers made no problem distributing their source, and now with the labeled open source initiative and free software foundation, we're both parents and children of the proprietary software)
When it comes down to software, we're continuously trying to compare, "do better", "do the same", etc... Of some proprietary piece of software we might want to use ourselves. We're trying to "do better" than windows. We're trying to compare our OS with windows, because that's what gets more userbase (something I really don't think of as a plus, because more people will try to put their idea of how windows should've been in their eyes, and say that's how linux should be...)

This is why I think the fresh start of haiku is positive, and why I think opensolaris can offer a great piece of competition to the linux world (even though it looks only like yet another BSD based system)

PS: I'm currently glad with linux, I like it, I feel more at home in it than I felt on windows. The only problem I find here is that innovation is no longer the standard. I see little innovation left in the community... That's what I pity, and what I hope to see in the haiku community.


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#33 2008-06-05 11:01:19

skymt
Member
Registered: 2006-11-27
Posts: 443

Re: Haiku / BeOS

I've found that the Macintosh platform seems to attract the sort of quality-of-life software Arkay's describing. This is both a technical and social phenomenon.

Technical: OS X comes with a large application framework along the lines of Qt or the .NET BCL. This has all the usual advantages (quick development time, standard deployment target), plus one: since it's bundled with the OS, the user already has it. No dependency issues that could force you into a lower-level approach. The standard language, Objective-C, is also a boon: almost-C execution speed with enough of a dynamic nature to support modern OO style. In short, developing Mac applications is fast.

Social: Macs are seen by their users as computers to have fun with. This dates from the early days ("The computer for the rest of us"), and it's still a strong force in the community. Mac users are more likely to whip up an application for a trivial fun task. Just look at the latest software at MacUpdate: a couple recipe managers, a golf scorecard manager, an astronomy widget— all software that was almost certainly originally written for the author's benefit.

We should look at the Mac world to see how Linux can improve:
* Refined application-development tools. C and GTK are no longer sufficient. The GNUstep project is an obvious place to start, as they're already much of the way toward a NeXT/Mac-style development environment. It just needs quite a lot of attention from developers before it can catch up.
* Reduced fragmentation (ooh, controversial!). All the development time spent working on yet another window manager or text editor is time that could spent improving app libraries or writing useful original apps.
* Write things for fun! If you want to catalog your collection of action figures, write the app and give it out! Casual-useful tools don't appear out of thin air, someone has to write them.

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#34 2008-06-05 14:53:14

scj
Member
From: Sweden
Registered: 2007-09-23
Posts: 158

Re: Haiku / BeOS

skymt wrote:

* Reduced fragmentation (ooh, controversial!). All the development time spent working on yet another window manager or text editor is time that could spent improving app libraries or writing useful original apps.
* Write things for fun! If you want to catalog your collection of action figures, write the app and give it out! Casual-useful tools don't appear out of thin air, someone has to write them.

Call me crazy, but I was under the assumption that most developers working on Yet-Another-* was doing it for fun, so those two statements seems to directly oppose each other. I get your point, though.

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#35 2008-06-05 14:53:26

Misfit138
Misfit Emeritus
From: USA
Registered: 2006-11-27
Posts: 4,170

Re: Haiku / BeOS

Redroar wrote:

It's true - Linux is a Server OS that has managed to be beaten into a desktop. But when you've got enough people whacking at it, eventually you can turn a house into a boat...which is what's happened in Linux. Enough people have put enough effort into it to make is a good desktop OS. But if you had 1/10th the number of people working on Haiku/Syllable then it would be twice as good as Linux on the desktop. No doubt about it. But it has 1/100th the number of people, so it just doesn't have the ability to catch-up.

The fact that Linux uses the same kernel for the desktop and the server is it's greatest downside IMO. If it were more specialized, then I think it would perform at a much higher level.

EDIT: On the topic of OpenSolaris, I don't see much wrong. It looks very much like any other *nix to me, though. Of course the minimum memory requirement of 512MB is off-putting...

Bravo....standing ovation. Perfectly described!

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#36 2008-06-05 15:28:14

arkay
Member
Registered: 2008-05-23
Posts: 79

Re: Haiku / BeOS

I thought the same thing about OSX so I went and installed it on my old X86 hardware.  I liked it soo much in fact that I went and purpose built a quad core as close as possible to Mac standard hardware so I could further tinker with the OS.  For some reason though I found, after a couple of months, that it wasn't what I was searching for.  I can't really put my finger on why it wasn't for me.  One thing is the commercial nature of it.  No doubt there is some great software available, particularly in the video space.  Yet here I sit in Arch with mencoder going flat out in the background converting my home DV tape to xvid.  There were other things I didn't like also.  The filesystem and the files that get dumped all over it, the lack of lvm or any decent equivalent, issues with a printer that supposedly has OSX support etc etc.  It's a fine OS with some great apps but it's not home for me but millions of times preferable to Windows.  The software installation on OSX was very nice.  Standalone packages with drag and drop install/removal is very user friendly.  But then you could say the same thing for package managers in Linux, most are easy to use and fairly efficient.

I guess this discussion and others like it are the reason there is so much fragmentation amongst the open source alternatives.  Everyone has an idea that differs either a lot or slightly from others but that difference is enough to cause code forks or disto splits etc.  I love the whole idea of choice (to a point), but 300+ distros is not doing anyone any good.

I certainly wish there was a way of standardising some things.  Some form of agreeable mandate that specified that interoperability should be not a goal but the norm for the better OS known as GNU/Linux.  It would be fantastic to see Gnome and KDE write an intermediate API that allowed execution of code written for either to run on both with the GUI elements native to the user (whether they choose Gnome or KDE style), the presentation should be the same for every application.  i.e.  I don't want to see Gnome style dialogs and requestors on a KDE desktop etc.  Things seem to be done in the wrong places.  The DE is responsible for managing the display and the objects on it.  The code to burn a CD should not be dependent on the GUI currently running if that makes any sense.  Yet KDE apps are just that, reliant on a large amount of non GUI related libraries.  It's almost becoming an OS in itself.

Package management is a huge problem.  Not for us but for anyone drawn to Linux as an application programmer.  The time involved in packaging your app for even just the 5 major distros is 5 times more work that has to be done than should be.  For every distro there is a swag of people compiling, optimising, checking and releasing the same code as everyone else.  There must be some way of reducing that burden and making packaging an easy solution for the would be application author.  Commercial or otherwise.  I can't say what it would be but I now that without co-operation between the various distros it will never happen. 

It's really hard to imagine where IT in general will go in the next 10 years but I do hope that it gets back on track as being a fun and exciting way of making life better rather than a lucrative and easy way to invent, patent and profit from proprietary formats and hardware that were never really required in the first place.

Cheers,

Arkay.

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#37 2008-06-06 04:44:34

pauldonnelly
Member
Registered: 2006-06-19
Posts: 776

Re: Haiku / BeOS

arkay wrote:

You're also correct in that people only develop apps because they want them.  Particularly in the open source sense.  My point though, is even if I do want them.  It's damn hard to do.

Well, when you put it that way, I guess that's my point too. cool  While I did say that people only develop apps because they want them, I also think that people often don't develop apps they want because it's damn hard to do. So only "money apps" like browsers (or kernels?) that can attract big corporate or community involvement and that are urgently needed get written. The little stuff is let go. Fragmentation probably plays some role, but I think that if there was even one really good choice, it would become the de facto tool for RAD on Linux and the number other possibilities would be a non-issue. Much like everyone asking "How can I make a game on Linux?" gets pointed at SDL. SDL is pretty lame from a RAD standpoint but it's in line with what your average kid who wants to program games is willing to put up with. I think if there were a tool that would let a person drag a few widgets onto a form, click them and write a little glue, and have a working prototype, we'd have a much better shot at DIY culture. DIY in the sense that people Do It Yemselves, not the "Do It Yourself, you lazy slob." sense. Which we have plenty of.

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#38 2008-06-06 05:30:55

X/ax
Member
From: Oost vlaanderen, Belgium
Registered: 2008-01-13
Posts: 275
Website

Re: Haiku / BeOS

Back on topic of haiku:
I've installed it both on virtualbox and on a freshly installed vmplayer.
None of both have reliable internet (virtualbox version doesn't even detecte the network card) the vmware version is actually doing weird things on my wireless connection (which seems to be a known issue).
Getting programs installed is a hassle. You first need to get the link, and wget it from there... Once you've got something like firefox installed, it's overly slow...
Point being: There's still a huge road to go, and I think it's wise to not have a release at this point.


My coding blog (or an attempt at it)
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#39 2009-02-11 15:11:16

kevin89
Arch Linux f@h Team Member
From: Netherlands
Registered: 2007-03-14
Posts: 218

Re: Haiku / BeOS

Resurrecting an old thread is better than having two identical ones...

I have been following the news around Haiku aswell..  I found this article:
http://osnews.com/story/20951/BeOS_Live … _Impresses

I have tried Haiku on virtual machines, it's awesome! I might even try to put it on my EEE701 to check it out!

Cheers!

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#40 2009-02-12 06:00:23

cb88
Member
Registered: 2008-06-10
Posts: 10

Re: Haiku / BeOS

haiku is awesome...
I follow the development pretty closely and even had it installed on my dual PII a couple months back. It really probably wasn't as fast as BeOS was back then but I imagine things have improved a bit and will improve more once it get stable.

The taskbar (called tracker i think) is really cool since you can drag it into a "normal" across the bottom/top mode or even the side or in the corner mode like it usaually is on BeOS

I'm not too keen on the menu layout though... it could be better

Oh and the last i remember my Haiku install was using about 80mb ram on the desktop which isn't too bad for an unoptimised system compiled with the ancient gcc 2.95

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#41 2009-04-07 19:50:32

Maki
Member
From: Skopje, Macedonia
Registered: 2007-10-16
Posts: 345
Website

Re: Haiku / BeOS

Haiku is really great, i have it around and play with it when i can


If it ain't broke, broke it then fix it.

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#42 2009-04-07 20:53:48

Hide
Member
From: Castalia
Registered: 2007-02-02
Posts: 368

Re: Haiku / BeOS

It seems things are warming up quite a bit. I see alpha on the horizon big_smile

http://www.haiku-os.org/blog/stpere/200 … ation_plan
http://www.haiku-os.org/blog/stpere/200 … _newcomers

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#43 2009-04-08 12:41:55

pixxt
Member
Registered: 2009-04-08
Posts: 4

Re: Haiku / BeOS

Redroar wrote:

It's true - Linux is a Server OS that has managed to be beaten into a desktop. But when you've got enough people whacking at it, eventually you can turn a house into a boat...which is what's happened in Linux. Enough people have put enough effort into it to make is a good desktop OS. But if you had 1/10th the number of people working on Haiku/Syllable then it would be twice as good as Linux on the desktop. No doubt about it. But it has 1/100th the number of people, so it just doesn't have the ability to catch-up.

The fact that Linux uses the same kernel for the desktop and the server is it's greatest downside IMO. If it were more specialized, then I think it would perform at a much higher level.

EDIT: On the topic of OpenSolaris, I don't see much wrong. It looks very much like any other *nix to me, though. Of course the minimum memory requirement of 512MB is off-putting...

I am sick of this type of misinformation. Please forgive me.

Umm no Linux was very much a hobbyist/Desktop OS from the start. Linux was first a Desktop OS before it became a Server OS that became whatever you can think of putting it on OS.      Unix and/or Unix Like operating systems were on the desktop before Windows, or the Mac or Amiga. That is the flexibility of the Unix design, Remember when Apple needed a new DESKTOP operating system they went with UNIX.

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#44 2009-04-09 01:32:41

sand_man
Member
From: Australia
Registered: 2008-06-10
Posts: 2,164

Re: Haiku / BeOS

I believe pixxt may be right here. Don't think "Linux should be used for this or that" but rather "Linux is so flexible it can do anything". Mobile gaming devices? Mobile phones/PDAs?


neutral

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#45 2009-09-10 18:13:20

BeRReGoN
Member
Registered: 2008-03-28
Posts: 35

Re: Haiku / BeOS

Resurrecting this thread...

Haiku Alpha Live CD/Installer is coming September 14th.

I had a partition which i installed haiku but yesterday i tried a test iso live CD.
http://www.haikuware.com/20090830411/ha … iso-images

The live CD was really slow on my laptop but the installer worked fine.

Last edited by BeRReGoN (2009-09-10 18:15:05)

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#46 2009-09-12 21:11:50

jumico
Member
Registered: 2008-12-13
Posts: 16

Re: Haiku / BeOS

I enjoyed this article on 10 alternative operating systems.
http://royal.pingdom.com/2008/09/26/10- … he-future/

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#47 2009-09-12 21:14:40

Runiq
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 2008-10-29
Posts: 1,053

Re: Haiku / BeOS

BeRReGoN wrote:

Resurrecting this thread...

Haiku Alpha Live CD/Installer is coming September 14th.

I had a partition which i installed haiku but yesterday i tried a test iso live CD.
http://www.haikuware.com/20090830411/ha … iso-images

The live CD was really slow on my laptop but the installer worked fine.

Did you install it in a VM or on real hardware?

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#48 2009-09-13 02:10:32

linkmaster03
Member
Registered: 2008-12-27
Posts: 269

Re: Haiku / BeOS

It's great news to see that a Live CD is being released. I was interested in Haiku about a month ago but only ever tried it out on qemu.

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#49 2009-09-13 04:05:45

BeRReGoN
Member
Registered: 2008-03-28
Posts: 35

Re: Haiku / BeOS

Runiq wrote:

Did you install it in a VM or on real hardware?

Real hardware, i always keep a partition for it even before the iso. I built it with the sources but now i'll probably just use the iso. It still alpha but stable enough. Everything seems to work fine, audio, net, graphics, only the wifi since there is no driver yet but anyway i use a cable.

One problem for me is the lack of flash which is pretty usefull for youtube and other videos site. At least for youtube, i can use the downloadhelper plugin and download vids in mpeg4 even if the vid doesn't load in the page. Hopefully the html5 might solve this later. Gnash have been ported but not the browser plugin yet.

There is still a lot of things to do to improve it like a native browser, instant messaging (the guy doing im_kit for beos restart the developpement for haiku), and a lot more.

But i often use Haiku anyway when i start my computer, it boot so fast, faster than my arch.

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#50 2009-09-13 04:50:58

Mardoct
Member
Registered: 2009-08-17
Posts: 208

Re: Haiku / BeOS

I'm sort of hoping that Linux will beat Haiku simply beacuse I much prefer the name and logo of Linux.


The human being created civilization not because of willingness but of a need to be assimilated into higher orders of structure and meaning.

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